DLT's SR Locos - Lord Nelson Craftsman Kit

[darren01]

HI Dave

Will follow this one ,like the other one you built gave me a lot to think about when i have a go later this year myself.

All the best

Darren

[DLT]

I had hoped to be able to do the work without dismantling the body, but with handling it started coming apart anyway, so I decided the best thing to do was take it to bits and start again.

The Q has a footplate that steps inwards about halfway along. This is correctly represented in the footplate casting, but they are the full width again at the front end. So if assembled as they are, the footplate splays outwards towards the front.

 

 

I made up my usual cradle from plywood to support the loco and keep the footplate flat and true during assembly.

I filed a bit out of the middle of the footplate castings to bring them in to the correct width, you can see the overwided bufferbeam casting in the photos.

 

 

 

The chassis is an etched & compensated beauty, all I've done to it is fit my usual springy wired to the contacts, to support the rear of the motor.

 

 

 

Cheers,

Dave.

Edited September 4, 2022 by DLT

[DLT]

The various parts of the boiler were all soldered together to form one immensely strong assembly. At this point it became apparent that the proportions are a bit off. The boiler barrel is a tad small in diameter, while the smokebox was a bit large. As I was intendind to add a new wrapper, I reduced the smokebox diameter with large coarse files.

 

 

Examination of various photos plus the application of some rather ancient "O" Level Geometry allowed me to plan out the riviting pattern for the smokebox wrapper. Then it was over to the trusty GW Models Riviting Machine, and half an hour or so of pressing produced this:

 

 

Once cut to width, curving it around various sizes of bar, together with a lot of trial and error led to this:

 

 

Finally, after Aralditing in position and cutting to length the loco looks like this:

 

 

It still looks a little dimensionally out to me; maybe the boiler and firebox are a bit small, or the cab a bit large, or a bit of both! Apart from raising the boiler a bit, I dont think I can correct it without building as completely new boiler assembly, and thats a bit beyond the scope of this project.

 

So, the question I have to ask is: Does it look like a Q?

Edited September 4, 2022 by DLT

[Horsetan]

....Examination of various photos plus the application of some rather ancient "O" Level Geometry allowed me to plan out the riviting pattern for the smokebox wrapper.

 

For the benefit of younger modellers and for those of us who have long since forgotten them (me, for example), it might be of use to set out those geometric rules!

 

Then it was over to the trusty GW Models Riviting Machine, and half an hour or so of pressing produced this:

 

Of course, the steady "ker-CHUNK...ker-CHUNK...ker-CHUNK" sounds can get a bit monotonous after a while......

 

Once cut to width, curving it around various sizes of bar, together with a lot of trial and error led to this:

 

Alternative: why not use a paper wrapper first to mark out where your rivets are going to be? Then the resultant paper pattern can be used as your master template and transferred to brass / nickel silver....

 

Does it look like a Q?

 

Looks OK from this angle

[2ManySpams]

yep, looks like a Q to me too...... Or a Fowler 4F! In some old box somewhere I have the Crownline kit to convert an Airfix 4F to a Q. And if you think the SEF kit may have a few dimensional issues, that's nothing on the Crownline offering!

[DLT]

yep, looks like a Q to me too...... Or a Fowler 4F! In some old box somewhere I have the Crownline kit to convert an Airfix 4F to a Q. And if you think the SEF kit may have a few dimensional issues, that's nothing on the Crownline offering!

That interestingChris, can you remember what was in it? I wonder if any of the bits would still be usefull?

I see that nowadays PDK have a complete etched kit for the Q, so if anyone is starting from scratch that would be the way to go.

All the best,

Dave.

[DLT]

For the benefit of younger modellers and for those of us who have long since forgotten them (me, for example), it might be of use to set out those geometric rules

 

I'll have a go, but its easier to demonstrate than it is to describe. watch this space....

 

Of course, the steady "ker-CHUNK...ker-CHUNK...ker-CHUNK" sounds can get a bit monotonous after a while....

Headphones and your most riviting music usually does the trick.

 

Alternative: why not use a paper wrapper first to mark out where your rivets are going to be? Then the resultant paper pattern can be used as your master template and transferred to brass / nickel silver....

Er, I'm not sure how that would help.

I do a large fully dimensioned sketch showing the rivit positions and spacings, and then use the indexing dials on the GW Riviter to go straight on to the workpiece, no marking out required.

Even when using non-indexing riviters, you only need to know the various dimensions in order to mark out the workpiece, rather than an accurate scale drawing..

 

Looks OK from this angle

Great, thanks.

Dave.

[Horsetan]

....Er, I'm not sure how that would help. ....

 

By way of example, I was thinking of the way that the late Guy Williams used paper to wrap around a firebox cage. By trimming here and there, he ended up with a template that he could transfer straight to metal.

[DLT]

For the benefit of younger modellers and for those of us who have long since forgotten them (me, for example), it might be of use to set out those geometric rules!

The geometric rule I was concerned with here was finding the circimference of a circle, or in this case a smokebox.

It all depends on a figure called Pi (pronounced Pie) which is a ratio that represents the number of times the diameter fits into the circumference. The actual figure runs to many places of decimals, but for our purposes it can be rounded up to 3.142, or 3.14. Pi is represented on your calculator by a symbol that looks like a tiny model of Stonehenge (fans of Spinal Tap will recognise it instantly)

 

Circumference = Pi x Diameter. If diameter = 22mm, then circumference = 22 x 3.142, = 69.124mm. Or 69 and a bit when you are marking out a piece of brass or whatever.

 

The internet can probably explain it better than I can, take a look at what Wikipedia or Math Goodies have to say on the subject.

 

Once you know the circumference you can work out the position of all sorts of other fittings by gauging their distance from a known point, such as the centreline of the chimney.

For intance, if the handrails are on the centreline of the smokebox each side, their distance apart will be half the circumference, the disance from them to the chimney centreline will be a quarter of the circimference, etc, etc.

 

If you have a good front view and can measure angle you can get REALLY clever. If the position on the smokebox is, say, 60 degrees from the vertical, dividing the circumference by 360 gives you the length of one degree, In the case of our 22mm dia smokebox, one degree around the circ = 0.192mm, or 0.2mm is quite close enough. So for 60 degrees from vertical, 60 x 0.2 = 12mm, which is the distance from the chimney centreline.

 

Hmm, guess all thats clear as mud (its late...) or can anyone follow it?

 

Cheers,

Dave.

[Horsetan]

.. Pi is represented on your calculator by a symbol that looks like a tiny model of Stonehenge (fans of Spinal Tap will recognise it instantly).....

 

Now that is a class explanation

[jwealleans]

fans of Spinal Tap will recognise it instantly

 

Unless it's been trampled by a dwarf.

[mudmagnet]

Unless it's been trampled by a dwarf.

 

A classic moment from a classic film!

Glad you get your scaling correct Dave and not follow Nigel Tufnel's methods!

Now you will need to watch the film again!

[number6]

Lovely looking chassis for this one Dave.

 

On the body the thing that jumped out for me on the cast parts was the framing ahead of the smokebox. I never found an image where it looked remotely like this on the real thing! Happy to be proved wrong. I think it curves down from the smokebox and then straightens out to a shallow angle towards the bufferbeam rather than the rather sharp angles on the kit. I made up some new ones is plasticard. You can doubtless do something effortless in brass.

 

For example: Here

 

regards

Raphael

[Graham_Muz]

Raphael

 

If I remember correctly the Wills kit was based on Q class number 540 which has the angled frames infront of the smokebox as per the kit whilst the other members of the class all had the curved frame tops.

[DLT]

Hi Raphael and Graham,

 

Lovely looking chassis for this one Dave.
regards Raphael

Not guilty! Afraid I can't claim any credit fotr the chassis, its body only for me this time. As you say its lovely, very well built and runs like a dream

 

On the body the thing that jumped out for me on the cast parts was the framing ahead of the smokebox. I never found an image where it looked remotely like this on the real thing! Happy to be proved wrong. I think it curves down from the smokebox and then straightens out to a shallow angle towards the bufferbeam rather than the rather sharp angles on the kit. I made up some new ones is plasticard. You can doubtless do something effortless in brass.

Quite so, reshaping the frames is on the to-do list.
According to JH Russell in "A Pictorial Record of Southern Locomotives" only the first loco, 530, had frames this shape when built, but was later altered to the concave shape to match the rest of the class. The photo below is the Official SR photo, copied from the Russell book (any copyright issues with this?)

 

For example: Here

Thanks very much for the photo Raphael, wish I'd had it when riviting the smokebox!

A question, please can anyone confirm what the plate on the cabside it? It appears on all locos in Southern period, but not postwar.

Thanks all,
Dave. Edited March 10, 2018 by DLT

[DLT]

...Now you will need to watch the film again!

Definitely!

[number6]

Graham, Dave

That rings a bell - probably for when I was scratching my head about it before.

 

A long time ago I found a gallery of detail images taken of the Q at Sheffield Park but they were on Fotopic so long gone now I guess. What I do to search for images is go to Flickr.com or just use the image option in Google. Often turns up interesting and useful stuff if you use loco numbers or class codes.

 

Should have paid more attention re the chassis...

 

Raphael

[Oldddudders]

Hmm, guess all thats clear as mud (its late...) or can anyone follow it?

While this sort of precision is well beyond my capabilities or patience, your description and calculations accord with my vague recollection of O Level Maths, taken in 1964, so I think you've achieved your objective!

[Graham_Muz]

Raphael

 

If I remember correctly the Wills kit was based on Q class number 540 which has the angled frames infront of the smokebox as per the kit whilst the other members of the class all had the curved frame tops.

 

Doh! serves me right for posting from memery, I knew it was the first built but forgot that the class started at 530 not 540. Note to self; next time, remember to check information before posting.

 

 

copied from the Russell book (any copyright issues with this?)

 

A question, please can anyone confirm what the plate on the cabside it? It appears on all locos in Southern period, but not postwar.

 

Thanks all,

Dave.

 

Dave

 

I have a feeling their might be a copyright issue with the picture as it is a scan from a current book, might be worth hosting somewhere else and linking to it, to keep within the forum rules.

 

Withe respect to the plate on the cabside, it's a number plate of which there were three (one on each cab side and one on the rear of the bunker / tender) fitted during the Maunsell livery era up to 1937/8

 

Oringally there were 13 5/8" x 7 5/8" oval plates with "Southern Railway" across the top then the A, B or E prefix below that and then the number below the prefix.

After the 1931 renumbering (ie dropping the A,B or E prefix) They were 13 1/2" x 7 9/16" oval plates with the number in the middle and "Southern" across the top and "Railway" across the bottom.

[Graham_Muz]

Graham, Dave

That rings a bell - probably for when I was scratching my head about it before.

 

Snip

 

Raphael

 

Raphael

 

I meant to say earlier it's nice to see you back posting on here, you have been missed! Would be good to see an update on your layout etc again on here. I would also be pleased to link to it from the new Southern Railway Group on here too.

[DLT]

Now you will need to watch the film again!

With the sound turned all the way to eleven....

[DLT]

Withe respect to the plate on the cabside, it's a number plate of which there were three (one on each cab side and one on the rear of the bunker / tender) fitted during the Maunsell livery era up to 1937/8

 

Oringally there were 13 5/8" x 7 5/8" oval plates with "Southern Railway" across the top then the A, B or E prefix below that and then the number below the prefix.

After the 1931 renumbering (ie dropping the A,B or E prefix) They were 13 1/2" x 7 9/16" oval plates with the number in the middle and "Southern" across the top and "Railway" across the bottom.

Thanks Graham, the loco is going to be in Bullied black with sunshine lettering, so I guess should include the plates.

Thanks for all the comments Guys.

Dave.

[mudmagnet]

With the sound turned all the way to eleven....

 

Strange my controller goes to 11 as well!:laugh:

[DLT]

Various detail bits being produced and added at the moment, but I've got some photos of the method of representing the cylinder mounting studs in the frames. These are the two prominent sloping rows of domed protrusions in the frames below th e smokebox. At least, I ASSUME they're cylinder mounting studs, cant think what else they can be.

On the kit they are represented by dimples in the castings, and I guess the idea is that you drill them through and insert lengths of wire. Anyway thats what I've done, I cut the wire to length first and rounded off the ends. Once they were all in place I soldered them from inside. The kit has one too many dimples, should be six in the top row and five in the bottom.

Top right in the photos is the new rocker-shaft for the reversing gear, not included in the kit.

 

Cheers,

Dave.

 

PS Yes, I will reshape the frames ASAP!

 

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by DLT

[DLT]

Dave

I have a feeling there might be a copyright issue with the picture as it is a scan from a current book, might be worth hosting somewhere else and linking to it, to keep within the forum rules.

Done!