Hornby 2011 Announcements

[frobisher]

But how do you know if the railroad stuff will be DCC ready???

 

A lot of this new stuff is;

 

If you follow this link then

 

Tornado, the three 4-4-0's, the Warship and 31 are.

 

Of the existing range (here)

 

The 33, 40, County, Patriot, Black 5, 9Fs, Deltic and one of the A4's are listed as DCC ready.

[Pennine MC]

But having said that the tippler seems a very strange choice unless the old tool is knackered or is the most easily 'adjusted' one - in which case it makes some sort of sense as far as investment is concerned even if it is not the cleverest marketing idea.

 

The chassis, with its characteristic 'over centre' handbrake linkages, is certainly not a soft option, I'll give them that. Outside of bodging plastic or etched bits, there's no easy existing way of producing one. The body though is literally just a welded box with strengthening ribs - as long as they draw the upright lines in the right places, it shouldnt be difficult (although the previous model was truly awful, it couldnt have been a much worse attempt at reproducing even that level of simplicity)

[tim-minay]

thanks very much for that

 

helps a lot

[43179]

..........anyways back to this 'new' class 67 , i mean , really ??? ( ) the descriptions states the W&S locos come with etched nameplates -

 

those have gotta' be some expensive nameplates if its the old lima model

 

tfn

 

Jon

[stewartingram]

I read this as "Hornby don't sell .....".

 

Yes they do. Though you will pay full price plus shipping for your direct-ordered items rather than taking advantage of retailer discounts. Here --> http://www.Hornby.com/brands/

 

Point taken that they do sell direct online, but that must be a very small percentage, especially considering the prices?

[coachmann]

When it comes to 'decoration', the more intricate the livery, the costlier it is as far as pro painters are concerned. But whIle I am not familiar with the process(s) involved in mass production, I would imagine it costs little more to print on simplified LNER livery than it does full LNER livery. I particularly have in mind the Hornby 'Tornado' model. It looks to me like this loco is being put in the Railroad range as a loss-leader at around £70.00. I suppose it depends on what Hornby does with the A1 next. Will it discard the Tornado details and produce a standard A1 in the future?

 

Duplication may be good for the manufacturers, but I cannot see splitting markets in half as being heathly for the hobby. Modellers are in this hobby for the long-term and would prefer to see a wider variety of models rather than duplication. The trouble is it is hard to find a case against Hornby for their choice of 'Tornado' and the B1 as, for once, both make commercial sense........ It could be said that Bachmann should have upgraded their B1 years ago, but on the otherhand they might be glad to be rid of it! The split-frame Ivatt Class 2 2-6-2T risks going the same way, and it puzzles me why they have not upgraded this model. For whoever produces this loco also has within their grasp the BR Std. 2-6-2T as well as the BR 78XXX 2-6-0.

[oggy1953]

Typical, just completed my 1st Kirk Gresley suburban, and enjoyed building it. Pity they couldn't have been Thompsons. STILL I am not grizzling, sure i'll be buying a few. And fills a huge gap in the market.

[Legend]

I don't remember such a drama over duplication when Hornby did the Scots and Patriots. The situation with the B1 is no different in any way. I suspect that with the quality of the Farish Black Five and the tendency for the two Bachmann ranges to mirror one another, there may soon be some retaliation in kind...

 

Dave.

 

But did the Patriot/Scots , or for that matter the Class 4, sell in any great numbers? The Scot and Patriot had a very short life in the catalogue (I know one is back this year) and if you look at Hattons they had Scots and Patriots going cheap for some time, particularly the DCC versions. Looks to me as if Hornby haven't quite learned the lesson. Also if it makes sense to do the B1 because it uses the B17 chassis, why have they still not done an Original Merchant Navy? Does seem to be pretty muddled.

 

On Tornado I do see it makes sense for Hornby to have this in its range- its one of the most talked about locos and therefore Hornby material. However if you have to pay Virgin for the right to have a license to model one of their trains, would you not have to pay a similar license to the A1 trust for the use of the name "Tornado"? The bit thats annoying me is if Hornby can capitalise on the A1 Loco Trusts hard work without paying a penny to them, while Bachmann make a donation for each loco sold.

 

Also if the High Spec loco can sell at £77, how come other Hornby high spec locos are selling at much higher prices. This does seem to be a direct attack on Bachmann.

[Oldddudders]

I've also checked Hattons' forthcoming items part of their website and it seems high-windowed olive green liveried Maunsells are also listed, I deduced that from the fact they've been given new product codes (not suffixed):

R4506 SR Maunsell Corr. 3rd Class High Window

R4507 SR Maunsell Corr. 1st Class High Window

R4508 SR Maunsell Corr. Composite High Window

R4509 SR 4 Compartment 3rd Class High Window

R4510 SR 6 Compartment 3rd Class Brake High Window

R4511 SR 3rd Class Brake Composite

Thanks for your diligence - I think! I love the concept of a "3rd Class Brake Composite" yet this sort of contraception in terms is often perpetuated on Hornby sellers' websites. Whatever, if it is in olive green I suspect my plastic card will just sigh resignedly once again, while absorbing each of the suffixes. Two for Padstow, one for Bude, plus another three in the reverse direction all labelled for Waterloo, sounds like a good start.....

[spamcan61]

 

Also if the High Spec loco can sell at £77, how come other Hornby high spec locos are selling at much higher prices. This does seem to be a direct attack on Bachmann.

 

I thought the 77 quid was the Railroad version? Based on dibber25's comments it sounds like the Railroad version and the 'super detail' will share the same mechanism and basic bodywork - the 'super detail' version gets a more finely applied / detailed livery and probably more separately fitted detail. The difference in production cost is irrelevant, it's what value people put on that extra detail that will set the merket price, by and large.

 

as far a 'direct attack' on Bachmann - are people now complaining because Hornby are potentially producing better value models? They certainly can't please all the people all the time!

 

Overall there does seem to be a shift, particularly in terms of steam locos, to the Railroad range, but I'd say these Railroad models are better finished and certainly much better mechanically than anything Hornby was producing a few years back, look at the railroad 9F for example. A pragmatic new product range in a recession IMHO.

[edcayton]

Scots and Patriots going cheep

 

Advertised on Twitter?

 

Ed

[coachmann]

Scots and Patriots going cheep

Advertised on Twitter?

 

A little bird tells me we missed them. Time for a flutter...

[Caledonian]

I'm much inclined to agree with Spamcan and suggest that the 9F is a pretty good comparator with Tornado. Bachmann have a very well regarded 9F, which costs a bit, but you get what you pay for. Along comes the Hornby version and by God weren't people falling over themselves to say how splendid it was as a working model at half the price of the Barwell one.

 

The B1; well as others have said Bachmann have had their chance and its long past time we had a decent one without the "classic split chassis limp" etc etc... Funny how everybody has moaned about the shortcomings of the Bachmann ever since I started and then as soon as Hornby make an announcement, oh dear me.

 

What I think is significant is this very pronounced shift towards lower cost (Railroad) models. Leaving aside the motors there is an awful lot of stuff in Hornby's back catalogue which is perfectly respectable if you don't possess a magnifying glass or a super-deluxe digital camera, so yes it makes an awful lot of commercial sense to concentrate on that end these days rather than spend huge sums on hand-built super detailed models when they know that the ungrateful swine (us) are going to spend all their time carping about whether it should have a speedo cable or whether the profile of the chimney is quite right.

 

No on the whole, if there's nothing to get excited about(though the teak Gresley BG will be hard to resist) there's no call either for teddy bears in the corner

[Pennine MC]

But did the Patriot/Scots , or for that matter the Class 4, sell in any great numbers? The Scot and Patriot had a very short life in the catalogue (I know one is back this year) and if you look at Hattons they had Scots and Patriots going cheap for some time, particularly the DCC versions. Looks to me as if Hornby haven't quite learned the lesson.

Another interesting point. There was much discussion about the Std 4 at the time, but getting conclusive info on the eventual outcome isnt so easy

 

The bit thats annoying me is if Hornby can capitalise on the A1 Loco Trusts hard work without paying a penny to them, while Bachmann make a donation for each loco sold.

Some clarity on that point would probably be a good idea, I think.

 

as far a 'direct attack' on Bachmann - are people now complaining because Hornby are potentially producing better value models? They certainly can't please all the people all the time!

 

 

If I was to be cynical... Maybe they can compete on price - when it suits them.

[Legend]

Sorry getting my MRPs and discounted prices mixed up.

 

R3070 Tornado discounted price £75. This is the super detailed version, as R3060 Tornado , the Railroad version, is £62. Prices from Hattons.

 

So it is quite interesting how the A1 will compare to A3 and A4 models which are approaching the £100 mark discounted.

 

Another interesting point is that the loco powered 4F comes in at £80 discounted, whereas a Bachmann 3F is around £60 I think.

 

Now corrected my spelling. Thanks chaps!

[Fat Controller]

A shame that the Siphon G they've revived is the Airfix model of the earlier outside-framed version, rather than the ex-Lima inside-framed one. Examples of this latter survived into the early 1980s in BR blue livery.

[Ian J.]

I am beginning to wonder if Hornby's way of dealing with expectation of their range might need revisiting.

 

A few years ago they got the hint and created the RailRoad range for less well detailed and old tooling models. I reckon there is a case for creating another section at the other end - a 'Gold Seal' / 'Blue Riband' / 'Finest' / 'Best' range. My logic in thinking this comes from looking at how supermarkets deal with the same issue. Take Tescos* for instance. They have Value, Standard, and Finest ranges, helping customers to understand the quality of the products. In a similar vein, I think Hornby could do well to have a similar split in their products. They already have RailRoad, which helps manage our expectations of what is in said range. But their main 'Red Box' range contains a very broad range of items, from some that are basically RailRoad items (many of the older wagons could be considered as such), through such items as the Terriers and Mark2Ds, right up to exquisitely accurate models like the 28xx, Hawksworths and Maunsells. The announcement on Hornby's site at Christmas makes an attempt to separate the product ranges into RailRoad and 'Red Box', but doesn't illustrate the differences between the standard and fine detailed models, and leads to a certain amount of confusion and consternation on the part of customers (wether they be 'little Jimmy' or 'Mr/Ms Modeller').

 

It may of course be the case that Hornby don't care much for such a split, as the confusion within the main range may lead to sales that might not otherwise happen. But in my mind, a 'Finest' range for the accurate models, perhaps also allowing a different, larger minimum radius curve as well as finer detail, would help us understand which of the three general markets Hornby are aiming a release at. It would also help us in our requests to Hornby for the kind of quality we are wanting a model to be. Of course, like the A1 Tornado just announced, it doesn't mean that any one item is restricted to a single range as it could just as well be provided across all the ranges.

 

*other supermarkets are available and do exactly the same thing

[Gwiwer]

I like the idea of a "Hornby's Finest" top range which should include the Pullmans and Class 50's along with others mentioned by Ian J..

 

But what I would really like to see is either one coupler across the range or an indication as to whether a Tri-ang - sized hook or something more respectable and discreet is fitted. What says the IC Mk2 coaches emerge straight from the mould with the same giant couplers fitted to the Virgin liveried ones of a couple of years back?

[298]

 

as far a 'direct attack' on Bachmann - are people now complaining because Hornby are potentially producing better value models? They certainly can't please all the people all the time!

 

 

I think we'll have to wait for Hornby's official line regarding the obvious duplicated items, but I think it's a bit of a shame they have continued their form to keep flogging dead horses, previously the 25 and 47 were also released against newer models and it was assumed people woull buy them because they have "Hornby" written on the box and appear to be a few pounds cheaper than the equivalent locos from other manufacturers. I'm probably thinking back a few years but someone who brought a Hornby class 50 for £60 or so might think a £50 class 47 will be nearly as good despite the far superior Vi or Heljan locos being just a few pounds more.

 

I wouldn't like to think they've studied the market and assumed there is demand for decades old locos in new liveries because they can shift them at a percieved cheaper price, for example the tooling for the 86 has long been paid for so they only have to invest about £20 in parts and assembly for a loco with a £60 RRP, with no indication how the revenue will be used, whether reinvested in a new model or to resurrect more unwanted tat from the Lima range.

 

As for the Warship, that's just a waste of materials and valuable production slots.

[deltic56]

"As for the Warship, that's just a waste of materials and valuable production slots". Agreed thne purists will buy the Bachmann every time BUT the TOY market will not. Therefore if a youngster buys one it MAY just keep the hobby going that little bit longer. We can`t all be perfect modellers and I know of a few adult modellers that are satisfied with the railroad range. Can I suggest that we all calm down and look at things properly and not through rose tinted glasses. If you were in charge of a company what would YOU make. You would not sell/get very far selling the models you would like to see

[Sailsbury Hall]

Just to put my two pennort'h worth in.

 

No one complained when Bachmann developed the 9f and A4 which Hornby already made so why complain about things when it is the other way around. I believe mechanically the B1 is the least reliable Bachmann model ever, as someone else so rightly put it "If you snooze you loose"

 

With regard to Tornado., The Bachmann model I have always regarded as the most disappointing Bachmann Loco. ever, and with its reputation for poor fit and finish It really does not measure up today. I would also suggest the Hornby model is a model of Tornado as built with dome , boiler mountings etc. reduced, not an original A1. In addition Hornby's pricing puts their model of Tornado in a rather more affordable pricer bracket for Children, the teens or those on more limited incomes.

 

I know Bachmann suported the A1SLT with their model of Tornado but do we know for certain that Hornby are not doing the same. I have found from personal experience that Hornby are, in fact, far more generous to the presevation movement for "Services Received" than Bachmann. They just do not publicise their financial support.

 

I feel that some of the comments on here just perpetuate an anti-Hornby stance by many on this forum, whatever they do.

 

Finally even if their is an element of deliberate competition then after the way the Kader Group have messed Hornby about in 2010 with the Chairman having to explain officially poorer than forcast trading to the City caused by Kader who could blame them? There is no law in the U.K. or E.U. against fair competition, rather the opposite.

[Southernman46]

Also, why produce wagons like the Trouts? (Until I saw the release I'd never heard of them!) How often were they used/how long did they last?

 

 

 

Probably been posted already but they are basically unfitted dogfish - much in use around the country (except SR) until the mid 1980's. A very welcome addition to the range - "Mackerel" and / or a Catfish next year please Mr Hornby

[Pennine MC]

Probably been posted already but they are basically unfitted dogfish - much in use around the country (except SR) until the mid 1980's. A very welcome addition to the range - "Mackerel" and / or a Catfish next year please Mr Hornby

 

Mmm, not my impression Somebody has already looked into this; there were just over 100 BR Trouts plus a no doubt smaller number of LNER and LMS ones. They're broadly the same shape as a Dogfish, but of very different construction (riveted, with inverted stanchionwork) and if you think Hornby are going to follow it with other 4W hoppers that look very little different to the untrained eye, I think you'll be disappointed.

 

Can I suggest that we all calm down and look at things properly and not through rose tinted glasses.

 

Who's not calm, Deltic AFAIC, this is generally a pretty well conducted thread

[robertcwp]

Just to put my two pennort'h worth in.

 

No one complained when Bachmann developed the 9f and A4 which Hornby already made so why complain about things when it is the other way around. I believe mechanically the B1 is the least reliable Bachmann model ever, as someone else so rightly put it "If you snooze you loose"

 

With regard to Tornado., The Bachmann model I have always regarded as the most disappointing Bachmann Loco. ever, and with its reputation for poor fit and finish It really does not measure up today. I would also suggest the Hornby model is a model of Tornado as built with dome , boiler mountings etc. reduced, not an original A1. In addition Hornby's pricing puts their model of Tornado in a rather more affordable pricer bracket for Children, the teens or those on more limited incomes.

 

I know Bachmann suported the A1SLT with their model of Tornado but do we know for certain that Hornby are not doing the same. I have found from personal experience that Hornby are, in fact, far more generous to the presevation movement for "Services Received" than Bachmann. They just do not publicise their financial support.

 

I feel that some of the comments on here just perpetuate an anti-Hornby stance by many on this forum, whatever they do.

 

Finally even if their is an element of deliberate competition then after the way the Kader Group have messed Hornby about in 2010 with the Chairman having to explain officially poorer than forcast trading to the City caused by Kader who could blame them? There is no lav in the U.K. or E.U. against fair competition, rather the opposite.

Some really good points here.

 

The B1 merits a new model, so why not Hornby rather than Bachmann? It has happened the other way round with the 9F. With the A4, Hornby had a model in the late 1970s, then Bachmann did a better one, then Hornby did a better one still.

 

Competition law is very important. Cartels, price fixing, agreeing not to compete on things, etc are illegal and companies caught enganging in anti-competitive practices can face huge fines - up to 10% of turnover if I recall correctly.

 

Competing products (eg both doing the Standard 4MT 4-6-0) demonstrate that Hornby and Bachmann really do compete. Remember a few years ago that both announced the Grange and Bachmann dropped their model in favour of a new Hall. Wise move as I don't think Hornby's Grange sold well, though that was partly their fault for not exploiting the variations properly - for example both the BR green ones they did had the same tender, when they had the tooling for three different tenders, any of which could have been used on a BR green loco.

 

For the Standard 4MT 4-6-0, Bachmann replaced the tired old ex-Mainline model, already having new tender tooling from other models. Hornby did the 4MT for the first time and there I think Bachmann came out the winner as Hornby's looked wrong to me (cylinder angle) so I bought a Bachmann one.

 

We have had lots of Class 47s, but then 512 of the real thing were built. I still think Hornby missed a trick five years ago in not doing a really good 37 when Bachmann made a mess of things with their first attempt and are now onto attempt three or four (I have lost count).

 

As regards the preservation movement and support from the enthusiast community, Bachmann have not earned themselves a good reputation in some quarters (remember the 73050 fiasco?). By contrast, Simon Kohler is, I believe willing to listen and appreciative of help and information provided. Hornby might do well to publicise some of their support for presevation a bit more.

 

Having read the posts about Tornado, I can understand the commercial logic but I think Hornby might have missed the boat by a year. From my personal point of view I would rather they had used the resources for a new loco I might buy (eg an all-new King) but they are a business and I am one customer out of many thousands.

 

I do wonder how much longer Hornby will last having their products made by Kader, given the recent problems, but what alternatives are there that will provide good enough quality of output? Hornby's products are almost always very high quality and quality matters in their market.

 

A final observation for now is that I question whether it is wise for Hornby to go on doing DCC ready and DCC fitted versions of all or most locos. It's a difficult one as there are many who are still DC and likely to remain so (eg me) but many others who are DCC and don't want the hassle of fitting chips. Chipped locos are no good for DC in spite of claims otherwise. I have tried a couple of locos and found that they run 10 times better de-chipped. I have seen instances of chip-fitted Hornby locos being sold more cheaply than non-chip-fitted ones. If they ever move to chips with everything, I think it's essential that they provide a blanking plug so those who are DC can de-chip easily.

[rob D2]

I'm with Andy on this. Unnecessary duplication, and if that is going to be the reason for these decisions then they need to sort themselves out a decent class 66.

 

From D+E perspective it seems to me like Hornby is becalmed whilst the good ship Bachmann sails on. Was the class 60 to be their last decent diesel ?