LMS Coach on Dartmoor Branch in 1954 - how and why?

[cary hill]

I've just been watching a BBC 1954 short documentary which records the journey of a sailor from Plymouth to the wilds of Dartmoor.

 

It was in the BBC Devon history archive section, which I don't seem able to link to successfully, and called "Brief Journey : Dartmoor Train"

 

The film is 4'23" long and at around the two minute mark the sailor changes at Yelverton and, as the train he apparently catches leaves, immediately behind the GW small prairie there is an LMS coach no M7725M which should be a diagram 1795 Open Third according the information I can find.

 

I would freely admit to not knowing much about LMS coach workings in detail - I know they worked through to various West Country resorts and along the GW Mainline, but would this coach have been "borrowed" from one of those workings by "Plymouth"?

 

It just seems an odd coach to be running between Yelverton and Princetown.

 

Should I file it under " a prototype for everything" and move on?

 

Any light shed on the above would be much appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[chrisf]

LMS coaches strayed regularly to WR workings. The last day of the Exeter - Heathfield service produced four! If the rostered vehice failed for any reason it would be natural and expedient to grab the nearest suitable replacement.

 

Chris

[Kris]

This should link you to the video in question.

[cary hill]

This should link you to the video in question.

 

 

Kris - thanks for that

[coachmann]

I would not have been suprised at one of the 57ft 2-window coaches or the Period II variant, but the 60ft D1795 does seem a little untypical hanging about on a 'foreign' branchline. It was something of a prestige vehicle in its time.

[Mallard60022]

LMS coaches strayed regularly to WR workings. The last day of the Exeter - Heathfield service produced four! If the rostered vehice failed for any reason it would be natural and expedient to grab the nearest suitable replacement.

Chris

 

Think you may have hit the nail there Chris.

It's a bit earlier than I really know about Plymouth workings as I only started 'real' spotting in the summer of 1958, however local practice was that some coaches from some trains sometimes laid over at Plymouth for a day or two, especially in summer and also the local C & W bods used to 'borrow' stock as Chris suggests.

There were loads of 'spare' coaches around in those days as well so stock was often 'loaned'. This one might have come down from the Bristol area on loan?

Also, there were a lot of 'football/rugby specials' in those days so a coach could have been borrowed for an afternoon?

Of course, it might have actually been a coach that had become 'reallocated/acquired' during the war years and just had not quite made it back to where it was supposed to be.

An interesting little puzzle this one. I look forward to seeing the actual reason if it appears.

36E (ex 83D)

[balders]

Just viewed this.......the second coach looks like either M24176M or M26176M

 

Is it a Dia 1851 corridor brake third (looking at the hooded window vents)? (RealPlayer embedded is clearer than the standalone player)

 

 

Guy

[cary hill]

Just viewed this.......the second coach looks like either M24176M or M26176M

 

Is it a Dia 1851 corridor brake third (looking at the hooded window vents)? (RealPlayer embedded is clearer than the standalone player)

 

 

Guy

 

 

Just looked at the film again and you could be right - I couldn't make it out at all first time round but I think I can see "176M" clearly enough now.

 

If the coach is M26176M that would make it a Stanier Brake Third to D1968 (1938)(according to Comet's site pdf for this coach number) - I think the window configuration looks about right from a couple of "passes" later in the film.

 

I thought Princetown trains were often just a single coach or mixed trains, although I have seen photographs with two or three coaches at the terminus, but "borrowing" both coaches seems bit "cheeky".

 

Earlier contributions to the thread make it clear that such "borrowings" were commonplace, so it looks as if my LMS coaches can achieve "higher mileage" on WR business without having to produce my modeller's licence -which is good

[coachmann]

I think it would be dangerous to assume from what has been written here that borrowings were "commonplace". A lot more research might actually reveal otherwise. The operating area generally provided the stock, but at the end of the day the train MUST run, and if for any reason a coach was deemed unfit (from a broken window to mechanical fault) then an alternative had to be found quick-style. It might be quicker to send a suitable coupled pair from coaches laying over in a siding than uncouple a defective vehicle. There is a picture in a book by David Jenkinson showing the 1.51pm Carlisle-Oxenhope stopper in the Lune Valley, consisting of ex LNER corridor stock........ David goes on to say ..."Setting aside the question of why the London Midland Region was using 'foreign'' carriages......." etc.

[Armchair Modeller]

There is a tendency to think of BR (WR) as the GWR in all but name and livery, but this was not quite true, even in 1954.

 

When the new regions were set up on the formation of BR, some lines were transferred fairly quickly, based on geographical and operating reasons, along with their stock. Joint lines were given to one region or other very early on, as were some fairly minor invasive lines - like a few LMS lines in South Wales, for example. Later on, of course, much broader regional boundary changes took place in which whole swathes of stock and territory ended up belonging to a foreign power.

 

Whilst there may have been a tendency to do mutually-advantageous swaps of stock to get things back where they belonged, or scrap foreign stuff,, there must have been some ex-LMS stock inherited by the WR that was not scrapped straight away - and could easily have been reallocated somewhere else on the region - especially if it was in decent order.

 

It was probably only when the widespread closures of branch lines in the early 1960s and the introduction of DMUs that large culls of stock could easily be carried out.

 

Might it be that this coach was actually part of WR stock, though not renumbered? It would be interesting to know how much foreign stock was reallocated to the WR in this way and what happened to it.

[coachmann]

I understand what you are saying armchair modeller, but I think boundary changes only affected fixed assets such as signal boxes etc.. The LNWR Standedge line was transferred to the Eastern Region more or less at the entrance to Diggle tunnels and so signal boxes and lineside huts of LNWR origins east of there became blue and white. But coaching stock was not transferred. It was supplied on some Hull-Manchester and Newcastle-Liverpool trains by the LMR and on others by the ER.

 

Many lines in Cambrian and the Borders territory were of mixed origins and it was not unusual to find ex-GWR, LMS and LNER coaches working the branches. But it was probably for operating convenience when working quite complicated diagrams. The coaches would most likely return to their respective regional works for maintenance.

[chrisf]

There have been many instances of foreign stock turning up on the WR. One has only to browse through the fine photo albums by R J Blenkinsop, as I did last night in bed, to find loads of examples.

 

My two favourites both come from South Wales and aren't in any of the Blenkinsop books. The late and very well-informed Sid Rickard captured on film an LMS lavatory brake second, as made long ago by Airfix, formed next to the loco in a train from Merthyr to Barry Island in 1958. Four years earlier he was at Cardiff General to record a Great Eastern coach, still painted brown, in a Merthyr to Cardiff train. There are other crazy examples - a 4 car Derby lighweight dmu at Coryton Halt near Cardiff, for example - but it would be wrong of me to take away from members the joy of looking at pictures closely to see just what is there!

 

Chris

[Ramblin Rich]

Excuse my relative lack of knowledge here - if the coaches had actually been re-allocated to Western Region, wouldn't the number have been WxxxxxxxM (to show ex-LMS stock now on WR)? Or am I barking up the wrong tree here? I'm trying to recall the ex-NER coaches used on the Culm Valley line....

[Rugd1022]

Excuse my relative lack of knowledge here - if the coaches had actually been re-allocated to Western Region, wouldn't the number have been WxxxxxxxM (to show ex-LMS stock now on WR)? Or am I barking up the wrong tree here? I'm trying to recall the ex-NER coaches used on the Culm Valley line....

 

Hi Rich,

 

IIRC the 'foreigners' used on the Culm Valley line were there because of the low line speed, as the dynamos on other types of coaching stock couldn't keep the lights on!

 

Nidge

[coachmann]

.....if the coaches had actually been re-allocated to Western Region, wouldn't the number have been WxxxxxxxM (to show ex-LMS stock now on WR)?

That is very true when they were officially transferred to another region.

[Armchair Modeller]

I understand what you are saying armchair modeller, but I think boundary changes only affected fixed assets such as signal boxes etc.. The LNWR Standedge line was transferred to the Eastern Region more or less at the entrance to Diggle tunnels and so signal boxes and lineside huts of LNWR origins east of there became blue and white. But coaching stock was not transferred. It was supplied on some Hull-Manchester and Newcastle-Liverpool trains by the LMR and on others by the ER.

 

Many lines in Cambrian and the Borders territory were of mixed origins and it was not unusual to find ex-GWR, LMS and LNER coaches working the branches. But it was probably for operating convenience when working quite complicated diagrams. The coaches would most likely return to their respective regional works for maintenance.

 

OK - my knowledge of this sort of thing is not great, BUT...

 

when the WR took over SR lines west of Salisbury they did take over all the stock - and the SR inherited GWR locos etc. on ex-GWR lines east of Salisbury - some panniers ended up banking at Folkestone Harbour.

 

when the LMR took over all GWR lines in N Wales they took over the stock too.

[Armchair Modeller]

Just noticed a photo at Culmstock of the branch train with what appears to be an ex-LNER Thompson 3rd brake in November 1962. I can't read the number but the prefix and suffix are both E. I guess this may possibly have replaced the ex-Barry Railway stock previously used on the line, rather than being a one-off substitution? If so, I wonder if that suggests the prefixes were not necessarily changed straight away when stock was reallocated to foreign regions?

[Bob Reid]

If so, I wonder if that suggests the prefixes were not necessarily changed straight away when stock was reallocated to foreign regions?

 

 

Backing up what Larry wrote, on the whole no change would have been made to the regional prefix if it was being used "on-loan" to another region, and even if it was a permanent move, they were rarely (if ever) changed until next time they visited the shops. It wasn't in those days something the local C&W examiner did.

[chrisf]

It seems that the two Thompson coaches on the Hemyock branch had acquired W prefixes by the time the passenger service ended in September 1963. The Railway Observer for November '63 refers to W87280E and W87245E, described as "the entire coaching stock allowed over the line".

 

Prior to their arrival the available stock comprised two brake seconds, W263W and W268W, built for the Barry Railway in 1921. This may have led Rev Edward Beal to refer in one of his books to the Barry Raiway as running from Tiverton Junction to Hemyock. (To err is human, to forgive divine.) These vehicles were built with electric lighting but when transferred to Hemyock circa 1951 were fitted with gas lighting as the speeds attained on the branch were insufficient to keep the batteries charged. A three legged tortoise could have outpaced the train easily. A new battery charging plant was put in at Tiverton Junction in October 1962 for the Thompson twins - one of which arrived at Tiverton Junction behind a Cross-Country dmu! - but to be on the safe side it was ordained that the spare coach should run to Paignton and back to charge its batteries.

 

I have no idea what happened to these vehicles after the Hemyock passenger service ceased. Bet someone does though ...

 

Chris

[Rugd1022]

What a lovely little railway it was Chris, it's definitley one I'd revisit given a time machine. I can remember 25s on the milk trains towards the end but wish I'd been around to see the 14xx Tanks pootling along much earlier.

 

Digging out various Bradford Barton albums yesterday in search of other coaching stock info, I noticed how many 'foreign' vehicles were actually used on the West Country branches in BR days, mostly Staniers by the looks of them, with the odd Gresley or Thomson thrown in (and not just during the Summer either). I've noticed a few shots of four or five coach formations where there's a Mk1 brake with the rest being all Staniers, and not a GWR type to be seen!

 

Nidge

[brianusa]

This lonely little thread is a great intro to the later Yelverton!  Great background info.

   Brian.

[The Johnster]

As this was the Princetown branch, might the unusual coach be a through working to do with the prison, perhaps a high securtiy prisoner transfer?  I was led to believe that prisoners and their escort guards always travelled in reserved first class accommodation locked away from the rest of the train, but this many not always have been the case.

[rodent279]

I wonder if short term borrowing of foreign coaches happened pre-nationalisation? 

[The Stationmaster]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

As this was the Princetown branch, might the unusual coach be a through working to do with the prison, perhaps a high securtiy prisoner transfer?  I was led to believe that prisoners and their escort guards always travelled in reserved first class accommodation locked away from the rest of the train, but this many not always have been the case.

Never in 1st Class according to the Reservation labels I used to type (with one finger, back in the time of my school holiday job at Paddington).  They simply had a reserved compartment (or compartments if their numbers warranted more than one), officially advised to BR as 'Prisoner(s) & Escort', which was how they were shown on the Saloon List at Paddington.  The reservation labels always showed them as (Reserved For) 'Home Office Party'. 

[Wickham Green too]

Did the Home Office Party include wine and cheese ?

 

Seriously, it's unlikely that a Prisoner & Escort would be carried in an Open coach. ( Reminds me, I sat opposite "Mr.Barraclough" ( Brian Wilde ) on a train from Leeds to London once ! )