Southern Coach Sets

[tender]

I'm a newcomer to railway modelling and over the last year have collected a few Hornby RTR Southern Coaches (mainly the Olive green ones).

I thought it would be a good idea to have one of each style, i.e 4 compartment brake, 6 compartment brake, composite, 3rd etc.

Now older and wiser i realise the Southern Railway grouped their coaches into specific 'sets'.

After a few searches i've come up with a spreadsheet of Sets that could be made up with Hornby RTR Southern stock. Not many it would seem, although it could be extended with a bit of renumbering.

(I'm sure somebody has been done before but i couldn't find it.)

Anyway, what's missing is where these 'sets' went. i.e were they allocated specific routes/areas of operation.

I've ascertained that set x was at place y just by looking at a few photos in books etc but it's a very hit and miss affair. So far i've missed all the Hornby sets.

So if i was to model Station 'z' how would i find out what sets (and Loco's for that matter) would have frequented the location.

Any help would be much appreciated.

 

Regards

Ray.

[DavidH]

Hi Ray,

 

This should help you:

 

http://www.semgonline.com/coach/sets.html

 

It gives divisions or specific routes.

 

Cheers,

david

[tender]

Hi David.

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

Yes i already found http://www.semgonline.com/coach/sets.html , it's what i based my spreadsheet on. http://www3.sympatico.ca/lsw.lbsc/00COACHS/SETREGST.HTM is also another good resource. I've narrowed my search down to WofE (West of England) pre 1948 (or Western Section) and came up with Sets 179,180,199,200,224,232,239,390-399,445-448. All these i think can be made up Hornby RTR with a bit of renumbering (Hornby has correct numbers for Set 239 [1935-1945], 392). Problem is what is defined as 'West of England' (or Western Section) and did any of these sets goto Padstow for example?

 

Regards

Ray.

[Ceptic]

Another option would be to join the SRLHCS (Southern Railway Loco Hauled Coaching Stock) Yahoo group.

Loads and loads of info on there.

 

By the way, Welcome to RMweb

 

Regards.

[Oldddudders]

Problem is what is defined as 'West of England' (or Western Section) and did any of these sets goto Padstow for example?

I think West of England is defined as anything on the Salisbury side of Worting Junction, i.e. not Bournemouth/Weymouth. Padstow would certainly be among the destinations for anything leaving Waterloo on the ACE, which itself ran in multiple portions in season in the golden years. Padstow would also be the destination for a BCK or two at any time of the year on that service. In low season, the ACE was mainly BCKs, with one going to each of many destinations. You can learn a lot more from the Irwell Press "An Illustrated History of the North Cornwall Railway" which is packed with stuff, much recently updated by 2manyspams of this parish, among other writers.

 

If you were to become a member of SEmG, I think you would find that there is extra info on Hornby sets online, although you may already have sussed all that detail for yourself. Whatever, there is more for members than non-members, including online discussion in an email forum.

[melmerby]

Try "Maunsell's SR Steam Carriage Stock" by David Gould (Oakwood Press X37) £9.95.

It has quite a bit of info on sets plus photos and drawings of several types.

It only covers the Maunsell stock as per title, but includes use into BR period.

 

Worth a look.

 

Keith

[Brake Compo]

I don't really think that there is any simple answer to this question: some specific sets were allocated to particular workings, others were special traffic sets which wandered wherever the need took them, but most were rostered in diagrams that could be amazingly complex and required only a particular type of set rather than a specfic set, resulting in sets wandering - the example usually quoted is that given on pages 106 to 108 of SR150, which gives an example of how complex the rolling stock diagrams could be, and one that is hard to better. Stock utilisation varied wildly, while some sets worked intensively around the south east, others only made trips between Waterloo and the West of England on summer Saturdays, travelling out to say Illfracombe one Saturday, spending the week sitting in the carriage sidings there before coming back the next Saturday - some new coaches that the Southern built were used on only about a dozen summer Saturdays days a year.

 

It is a vast and fascinating subject, about which most of us wished that we understood more...

[tender]

Thanks very much for the info. I have a copy of "An Illustrated History of the North Cornwall Railway" on order, hopefully be here tomorrow. I don't really like buying books 'blind' but this seemed to come well recommended. I'll also lok out for "Maunsell's SR Steam Carriage Stock".

BCK? Ah, Brake, composite, corridor, (never could get my head round them abbreviations) just found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_coach_designations .

 

Will sign up to SEmG and see whats on offer. I did sign up to Yahoo Groups years ago (sailing) but forgot my password, i suppose i'll have to re-register to join the SRLHCS group,but i really don't like giving away all that personal information that Yahoo now insist on.

 

On a question of Liveries, i believe what i call the 'olive green' livery (low window Hornby Maunsell) was for the period 1925-1938, and the 'other' green (High window Hornby), Malachite maybe? was for the period 1938-49. Would these two liveries have been seen together (on separate trains of course) from 1938 onwards or would the older stock have all been repainted? Did this colour change also apply to the Locomotives (T9's, N's etc.)?

I guess this opens another can of worms (probably discussed here already).

 

Regards

Ray.

[Brake Compo]

On a question of Liveries, i believe what i call the 'olive green' livery (low window Hornby Maunsell) was for the period 1925-1938, and the 'other' green (High window Hornby), Malachite maybe? was for the period 1938-49. Would these two liveries have been seen together (on separate trains of course) from 1938 onwards or would the older stock have all been repainted? Did this colour change also apply to the Locomotives (T9's, N's etc.)?

I guess this opens another can of worms (probably discussed here already).

 

 

Yes this is a real can of worms with many people arguing furiously over exact shades of green. There were at least two shades of both 'Olive' and 'Malachite'. If I may I will direct you to HMRS Livery Register no. 3 LSWR and Southern for the most scholarly treatese on the subject (and it is reasonably priced too)!

 

But what all the disputants fail to appreciate is how much these colours weathered over time - Olive goes brown and Malachite turns blue, and quite quickly as well. Eventually olive will weather into a kharki colour and rapidity with which malachite turns a distinctly bluish tinge is amazing. Compounding that was the Soutrhern's prediliction for varnishing coaches every couple of years, which again after several coats would have changed the colour again.

 

Yes, because of all the revarnishing coach liveries could last a long time, there are reliable reports of a handful of coaches running in the mid '50's still in pre-war olive! For example it is belived that none of the BRCW-built Bullieds (built 1947-49) ever received the carmine and cream livery all going straight from malachite into southern multi-unit green. Then of course we have the war - there was a national shortage of green pigment by 1942 (resulting for example in green being dropped from the Western Approaches camoflage scheme for warships), as a result what repainting took place used whatever stocks of old paint that could be found, including reversion to unlined olive. There are reliable reports of coaches being turned out in grey paint in this period.

[tender]

Hi Brake Compo.

Sorry, your post crossed my last reply. Many thanks for that. I won't ask any more questions here now until i have browsed "An Illustrated History of the North Cornwall Railway" hopefully in post today.

I'm sure it will shed the light on of my questions.

But from what i'm picking up, almost anything goes!

 

Ray.

[Peter Bedding]

I'm a newcomer to railway modelling and over the last year have collected a few Hornby RTR Southern Coaches (mainly the Olive green ones).

I thought it would be a good idea to have one of each style, i.e 4 compartment brake, 6 compartment brake, composite, 3rd etc.

Now older and wiser i realise the Southern Railway grouped their coaches into specific 'sets'.

After a few searches i've come up with a spreadsheet of Sets that could be made up with Hornby RTR Southern stock. Not many it would seem, although it could be extended with a bit of renumbering.

(I'm sure somebody has been done before but i couldn't find it.)

Anyway, what's missing is where these 'sets' went. i.e were they allocated specific routes/areas of operation.

I've ascertained that set x was at place y just by looking at a few photos in books etc but it's a very hit and miss affair. So far i've missed all the Hornby sets.

So if i was to model Station 'z' how would i find out what sets (and Loco's for that matter) would have frequented the location.

Any help would be much appreciated.

 

Regards

Ray.

 

Hello Ray,

 

Yours is one particularly and deceptively un-simple question. It gives us enthusiasts on this topic much scope to disclose our laboriously acquired knowledge. As to buying books "blind", I agree it is niggling to buy one that turns out a dud, but I fear it is an occupational hazard. I do believe though, that the answers to your questions have all been covered in print and on line, and researching in depth may well give you hours of innocent pleasure for years to come.

 

Attempting something like a useful answer, though, Hornby's Maunsell (pronounced Mansell) Restriction 4 coaches are rightly considered to be classics for accuracy and detail. Also, the lined olive green livery is spot on for newly painted stock from 1926 (when the low window variant was first made), until 1938, when a brighter unlined colour was introduced for service vehicles. At first, priority was given to corridor stock; non-corridor stock started to receive the brighter colour from 1941. In addition, there were (as said above) interim versions of Maunsell livery without lining, and interim versions of Bulleid livery with Maunsell-style numbers on coaches (i.e. round-topped "3"s.) Many subtle variations in hue were created, and were added to by the crimson and cream era.

Efforts would have been made to keep uniformity within a set, but the make-up of a train would vary. The Ocean Liner trains received preference, otherwise the West-of-England came lower down the list. Perhaps unfair to use the term "kaleidoscope", but until the new BR(S) green was introduced in 1956 it would have been quite usual to see a variety of liveries on any journey.

 

Precision Paints (no connection) produce pre and post war representations of "Malachite" green. They are good enough for many of us. Hornby have in the past (on their "generic" models) produced a perfectly convincing representation of malachite. I have no idea why Hornby rejected this for their current R4 coaches in supposedly post-war livery. No point in frothing, but very sadly they are not for me.

 

Bachmann have produced several of the post-nationalisation diagrams, but production standards have moved on, and for many modellers the limitations are too great. But the field for Bulleid pre-nationalisation coaches, in today's standards and in an acceptable green is wide open, and in this race I think the winner will take all.

 

Hth

 

PB

[tender]

Yours is one particularly and deceptively un-simple question. It gives us enthusiasts on this topic much scope to disclose our laboriously acquired knowledge. As to buying books "blind", I agree it is niggling to buy one that turns out a dud, but I fear it is an occupational hazard. I do believe though, that the answers to your questions have all been covered in print and on line, and researching in depth may well give you hours of innocent pleasure for years to come.

 

Hi Peter.

 

Many thanks for your input. My copy of Illustrated History of the North Cornwall Railway arrived today. This together with 'Illustrated History of Southern coaches' that my daughter bought me for christmas will keep me going for ages. Like you say a 'deceptively un-simple question".

 

Thanks

Ray.

[Graham_Muz]

I can not reccomend the Illustrated History of the North Cornwall Railway (especially as my name is in the credits..) Chris's (2manyspams on here) section should definately assist you.

 

As well as the Gould book on Maunsell coaches mentioned above his similar book on Bulleid coaches is also well worth being on your book shelf. I also confess that Mike King's tome has now become one of my first ports of call for information then backed up by the Gould titles.

Edited February 24, 2011 by Graham_Muz

[petethemole]

I also confess that Mike King's tomb has now become one of my first ports of call for information

 

So you can commune with the departed then?

[Ian J.]

So you can commune with the departed then?

 

I think Graham meant 'tome'...

[Graham_Muz]

Opps duly corrrected.

[Oldddudders]

As well as the Gould book on Maunsell coaches mentioned above his similar book on Bulleid coaches is also well worth being on your book shelf. I also confess that Mike King's tome has now become one of my first ports of call for information then backed up by the Gould titles.

I think the King book (at 3 times the price, of course) wins hands down on format and presentation over the traditional Oakwood Press design of the Gould. They are, nevertheless, complementary in content, and as Graham says, starting with King often gets you going on the route to an answer, while Gould may add a little more detail here and there - but it does need a bit of ferreting out. The King book on Pull-Push sets is also a jolly good read....

[tender]

Thanks very much for your input guys. Maunsell's SR Steam Carriage Stock is now on order and hopefully will fill a few gaps. I'll pass on the Bulleid stuff for now as this is at the extremity of my era and i don't know of any suitable RTR stuff. Although i must confess to owning a BR WC class of my namesake (no prizes for guessing which one). In fact getting hold of any authentic RTR is getting difficult even with the Maunsell stock. I guess kit building is the option here but as a newcomer i want to concentrate my efforts into a workable scenic layout, kit building will come later.

 

Ray

[john new]

On 22/02/2011 at 20:59, tender said:

Hi David.

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

Yes i already found http://www.semgonline.com/coach/sets.html , it's what i based my spreadsheet on. http://www3.sympatico.ca/lsw.lbsc/00COACHS/SETREGST.HTM is also another good resource. I've narrowed my search down to WofE (West of England) pre 1948 (or Western Section) and came up with Sets 179,180,199,200,224,232,239,390-399,445-448. All these i think can be made up Hornby RTR with a bit of renumbering (Hornby has correct numbers for Set 239 [1935-1945], 392). Problem is what is defined as 'West of England' (or Western Section) and did any of these sets goto Padstow for example?

 

Regards

Ray.

 

Just to report these weblinks have changed, for the first see https://sremg.org.uk/coach/sets.html.  The second link not found. A copy of it was recorded in June 2006 and can, however, be found at https://web.archive.org/web/20040706171911/http://www3.sympatico.ca/lsw.lbsc/00COACHS/setregst.htm 

 

Hope this helps current searches.