RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted April 24, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 24, 2019 5 hours ago, Graham1960 said: Yes and Diesel engines had a special headcode for these type of trains. The first number if an 8 meant that it was pulling fitted and unfitted wagons. And if none had them - a 9 was used. Whilst you are basically correct, clarification is needed as to the dates you are referring to and a more specific explanation of the consist of the train and other uses of class 8 and 9 codes. Clive Mortimore of this parish has posted an explanation of the differences on another thread, blowed if I can find it though! Mike. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said: Whilst you are basically correct, clarification is needed as to the dates you are referring to and a more specific explanation of the consist of the train and other uses of class 8 and 9 codes. Clive Mortimore of this parish has posted an explanation of the differences on another thread, blowed if I can find it though! Mike. My recollection is that , from the mid-1960s, Class 8 were freights with less than 20% of wagons fitted with automatic brakes (so could have a 'fitted head'), whilst Class 9 freights were those which might stop within section to pick up or set down traffic (effectively, a pick-up freight), and which might be fully-fitted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted April 24, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 24, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said: Whilst you are basically correct, clarification is needed as to the dates you are referring to and a more specific explanation of the consist of the train and other uses of class 8 and 9 codes. Clive Mortimore of this parish has posted an explanation of the differences on another thread, blowed if I can find it though! Mike. Hi Mike It was in reply to a question on headcodes. From 1962 to 1969 these were the codes. First figure was the train type 1, Express passenger, breakdown train or light engine going to assist a disabled train, snow plough clearing the line. 2, Ordinary passenger, branch passenger or mixed train. Breakdown train not on duty. 3, Parcels, fish, milk fruit, livestock or other perishable train composed entirely of vehicles conforming to coaching requirements. Empty coaching stock. 4, Express freight, livestock, perishable or ballast train fitted through out with automatic brake operative on 90% of the vehicles. Maximum speed on was 55 mph (1964 LMR Freight Loads book and 1967 ER book) 5, Express freight, livestock, perishable or ballast train with not less than 50% of fitted vehicles coupled to the locomotive. Maximum speed on was 50 mph (1964 LMR Freight Loads book and 1967 ER book) 6, Express freight, livestock, perishable or ballast train with not less than 20% of fitted vehicles coupled to the locomotive. Maximum speed on was 45 mph (1964 LMR Freight Loads book and 1967 ER book) 7, Express freight, livestock, perishable or ballast train not fitted with continuous brake. Maximum speed on was 40 mph (1964 LMR Freight Loads book and 1967 ER book) 8, Through freight, not fitted with continuous brake. Maximum speed on was 35 mph (1964 LMR Freight Loads book) or 25 mph (1967 ER book) 9, Freight train stopping in section (Trip freight, pick up freight) Maximum speed on was 35 mph (1964 LMR Freight Loads book) 25 mph (1967 ER book) 0, Light engine or engines with or without brake van. The ER had class 7* trains that had a "fitted head" and could run at 35mph. Depending on the number of basic wagon units the train was composed of there would be a proportion of the train which was made up of fitted wagons coupled to the loco. From 1969 to 1976, when headcodes were no longer displayed and as modellers we do not need to worry past this point in time. First figure was the train type 1, Express passenger, breakdown train or light engine going to assist a disabled train, snow plough clearing the line. 2, Ordinary passenger, branch passenger or mixed train. Breakdown train not on duty. 3, Parcels trains permitted to run up to 90 mph. 4, Parcels trains, freightliner trains and other fitted freight permitted to run up to 75 mph 5, Empty coaching stock, including empty newspaper and parcels trains. 6, Fully fitted freight trains, after 1968 no longer required a brake van unless hauled by a class 20. 7, Partially fitted freight train...off the top of my head I cannot recall what proportion. 8, Freight train with a fitted head, like the ER pre 1969 class 7* 9, Unfitted freight 0, Light engine or engines with or without brake van. Edited April 24, 2019 by Clive Mortimore 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 I am not sure, but I have a feeling that 40% fitted was the minimum for 7, if that rings a bell? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62613 Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 On 23/04/2019 at 19:49, south_tyne said: I may be daft, and this could be an embarassing question, but I will ask in any case..... what's going on there? Is coal simply being 'tipped' from the 16 tonner into a barge? If so, would that happen for each individual wagon? Just seems like a very laborious process! That's a bit bigger than a barge. It looks like the sort of coastal collier that plied their trade across the Irish Sea, and in the North Sea and Channel. Their usual runs were from coal loading ports to power stations. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted April 25, 2019 Share Posted April 25, 2019 Looking up the Ballyloran on Google she was built as a coastal collier. Pictures show her with one hatch in front of the bridge and superstructure with two hatches behind then the engine room. Interesting vessel. Gordon A 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trog Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 On 20/03/2019 at 13:57, hmrspaul said: The Plaice was a very inappropriate wagon - how do I know, because the one we measured for MRC in a windy corner of Wellingborough was slowly losing its load - some of it into our eyes. Paul The doors also had a nasty habit of dropping off the wagon when you opened them. Experienced staff usually stood well back as the doors were heavy and would drop like a guillotine blade. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgood Posted April 29, 2019 Share Posted April 29, 2019 (edited) On 23/04/2019 at 23:16, Gordon A said: How did they tip the cradle? To my eyes the wagon is the wrong way round. If the auxiliary hoist is connected to the pair slack of chains, then the opening end door is lifted up above the fixed end? Gordon A The cradle chains are set to hold the loaded wagon at a slight angle as shown. I imagine that as soon as the end door is opened the load will start to shift on the floor towards the open end - thereby causing the angle to steepen quickly, so the aux hoist would be used to control the angle of the cradle and regulate the rate of discharge. Tony Edited April 29, 2019 by Osgood Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted April 29, 2019 Share Posted April 29, 2019 As far as I can see from the rig, the auxiliary chains could lift the end door higher than the main ropes, but not lower. Gordon A Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgood Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 8 hours ago, Gordon A said: As far as I can see from the rig, the auxiliary chains could lift the end door higher than the main ropes, but not lower. Gordon A That's right. With the wagon initially set at that angle, opening the door will cause the load to shift downward, causing the cradle to swing further down at the door end, accelerating the shift of load even more - this could happen very quickly given the off-centre loading. The aux chains are there to arrest the resultant swing of the cradle downward at the door end to control discharge. There are several pictures of this setup at Ayr but none showing discharge in progress - would be interesting to find a video of the operation. Now that all said, this similar cradle in use at Goole dock in 1919 appears to have the aux chains at the back end!! Although the geometry of the cradle chains is very subtly different: And two at Granton harbour showing degree of tilt during offloading but you can't see where aux hoist is anchored: 5 1 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian Smeeton Posted May 30, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 30, 2019 Browsing Flickr, as you do. I think that this is Ayr Harbour Regards Ian 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo675 Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 On 30/04/2019 at 08:22, Osgood said: That's right. With the wagon initially set at that angle, opening the door will cause the load to shift downward, causing the cradle to swing further down at the door end, accelerating the shift of load even more - this could happen very quickly given the off-centre loading. The aux chains are there to arrest the resultant swing of the cradle downward at the door end to control discharge. There are several pictures of this setup at Ayr but none showing discharge in progress - would be interesting to find a video of the operation. Now that all said, this similar cradle in use at Goole dock in 1919 appears to have the aux chains at the back end!! Although the geometry of the cradle chains is very subtly different: And two at Granton harbour showing degree of tilt during offloading but you can't see where aux hoist is anchored: Hi Osgood, I had heard that at one of the Liverpool coal docks one job before unloading wagons into ships in this fashion was to check that the buffer retaining cotters were in place for loose buffers could cause serious trouble to the stocking engines auger screws of some of the Ocean Liners. Presumably this was the case in all such operations. Gibbo. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 58 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said: Hi Osgood, I had heard that at one of the Liverpool coal docks one job before unloading wagons into ships in this fashion was to check that the buffer retaining cotters were in place for loose buffers could cause serious trouble to the stocking engines auger screws of some of the Ocean Liners. Presumably this was the case in all such operations. Gibbo. More important to check they were still there after tipping! Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo675 Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 6 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said: More important to check they were still there after tipping! Mark Saunders Hi Mike, Quite right although finding them in the hold of a ship full of coal may well have been a bit of a needle in a hay stack of a job ! Gibbo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 7 hours ago, Ian Smeeton said: Browsing Flickr, as you do. I think that this is Ayr Harbour Regards Ian Ooh, nice. And the presence of a BMC 1100 with no visible rust must confine the date to a fairly narrow window ;). 1 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvdlcs Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 15 hours ago, Gibbo675 said: Hi Mike, Quite right although finding them in the hold of a ship full of coal may well have been a bit of a needle in a hay stack of a job ! Gibbo. Magnet? :-) Anyway, a few pictures further along in that Flickr thread - https://www.flickr.com/photos/118273204@N05/33637038518/ 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
26power Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 A few more colour images. From TrainsandTravel on Flickr. Apologies if any are repeats! In ascending date order. Loco coal, including French side door. At Barrow Road shed, Bristol. 06/03/63. Little rust spots. And short end door stripe. At goods yard at Wembley Park. 11/04/64. Very thin/no paint in places. At Nottingham Victoria station. 18/04/64. Three loads of pit props? Near Hampole station, on the Great Central & Great Northern Joint Line. 02/05/64. Hope of interest. 14 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgood Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 A tantalising glimpse of internal textures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/52554553@N06/10421504663/in/album-72157636831415256/ 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbowilts Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 12 hours ago, Osgood said: A tantalising glimpse of internal textures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/52554553@N06/10421504663/in/album-72157636831415256/ Also useful in showing what freshly loaded coal actually looks like! Very glossy that stuff, I wonder what grade it is? Tim T Modelling South Wales branches in EM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, timbowilts said: Also useful in showing what freshly loaded coal actually looks like! Very glossy that stuff, I wonder what grade it is? Tim T Modelling South Wales branches in EM Anthracite from Cwm-Mawr disposal point to Coedbach washery; it looks as though it could be Grains, Peas or Beans, the sort of stuff you'd use in gravity-fed domestic boilers. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted July 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 7, 2019 Osgood's "A tantalising glimpse of internal textures" theme has prompted me to seek out a couple of photos I have. The first photo is a WD heading a coal train northbound on the South Yorkshire Joint Railway at Pickburn. The second photo is somewhat more than a glimpse of the internal textures. Same train, a bit further north on the approach to Wrangbrook. 9 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 Find the 40! (pjs,0933) by Geoff Dowling, on Flickr 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted July 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 21, 2019 Interesting pic Porcy. No-one, including me, ever seems to model those arcs at the top of the load line in empty wagons (queue string of pics to prove me wrong). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Metr0Land said: No-one, including me, ever seems to model those arcs at the top of the load line in empty wagons Oh, I dunno. I have a go. (Not very successfully.) 12 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted July 21, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Porcy Mane said: Find the 40! (pjs,0933) by Geoff Dowling, on Flickr Just wondering, has anyone actually found the 40? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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