2 HAL

[Colin parks]

The tools are out again.

 

Here are a few pictures of progress so far. A lot of the building work will be like the 2 HAPs already featured on RMweb, but there are a few interesting challenges on these older units. Not least of these challenges will be the reproduction of the two cab roofs. I am also going to try and improve on the flush glazing method previously used on my 2 HAPs.

 

The sides for this first series 2 HAL have been marked out by setting out the sides in pairs bottom edge to bottom edge. The sides were laid directly onto the plans in the Southern Electirc Units book by Brian Golding. I used a 'T' shaped ruler for the marking out, using the bottom edge of the page to make sure that the lines were all vertical. It also ensures that the window are exactly opposite each other when the body is assembled. The sides are separated once the marking out is complete.

 

 

It proved best to cut the tops and bottoms of the fixed compartment windows (roughly) with the point of the knife blade (I don't use a handle). The radiused corners have been shaped with a 4mm chain-saw file, which is parallel along its length. This gives a consistent radius to each window - almost!

 

 

The cutting of the vertical edges of the windows is done with the aid of the 'T' shaped ruler as a guide. I noticed after this photo was taken that the door window openings are slightly deeper than the drawing shows and so corrected them.

 

 

Once all the windows have been cut out , the sides will be cut vertically at the point where the flat-sided cab joins the rest of the body. I have taken the tip from David Jenkinson's book regarding recessed doors etc. : it's far easier to get everything on coach sides in alignment and in one piece, then separate them. The cab is going to be made as a sub-assembly and fixed to the front of the remaining bodywork before tackling the roof.

 

 

One side of the motor coach is ready for the drilling of door handles, door bangs and commode handles etc. Then there is the new roof former to make to the Maunsell profile.

[Jon Gwinnett]

Excellent, another "Watch Colin build" topic. I was getting withdrawal symptoms once the HAPs were finished

[SRman]

Wow! Cutting out all of those large radius window corners must have driven you spare! Great stuff, Colin. I'll be watching your progress with great interest.

[Re6/6]

Fascinating stuff Colin. It's so nice to see the some quality plasticard scratchbuilding done nowadays. It looks very nice and sharp. I'll be following this with great interest. I have some 'Branchlines' etched 2HAL replacement sides for a Kirl 2BIL, but I'm going to use the sides and ends for a 'scratched' build. I hate the prospect of a perfectly good 2BIL being wasted!

[Colin parks]

Many thanks for the above comments. I did think about the Branchlines 2 HAL conversion kittoo, but thought plasticard suited me better. I think the transition from the curved sides to flat cab would be very tricky in brass. There is an excellent B&W photo of a 2 HAL on the web of unit 062, one of several units converted for parcel traffic after the HAL were withdrawn from passenger stock 1971, which shows the joining panel in question.

 

The sides are now cut and waiting for setting out of the numerous holes for handles. Slots have been cut in the luggage compartment sides where the recessed grab handles go. The slot will be closed up with a strip of 10 thou plastic sheet when the cab door droplight frames are made. I have decided to represent the top part of the door window frames as painted lines on the glazing. However, there will be a thin section of plastic at the bottom of each door window as that part is quite distinctive.

 

 

There is a small repair just visible on the corridor side, eighth window from the left. The first really bad mistake I've had with cutting out windows! That shall be sorted out later on tonight. The corridor window on the far right hand side needs to be widened. I did the long thin one at the L/H end after looking at prototype photos, but forgot to do the other. The Golding book of plans shows these two windows as being the same width as the compartment windows. The photograph of an ex-works HAL in the same book shows otherwise.

 

These sides were cut in about six hours - much quicker than the 2 HAPs. Maybe it is because there are no toplights on the doors and having all the sides set out in pairs makes things easier. It has also proved much quicker not to use a drill to open out the corner of each window. So now the method is pretty much like David Jenkinson's, making a cut across each window corner with the knife. It took one new blade per side for this task.

 

There is a repair

[dasatcopthorne]

Hi Colin.

 

That's going to look nice.

 

1. Did you get my reply about the photos?

 

2. Can't remember if I sent you anything on the 2 Hals. I measured one of the motor coaches of 023in 1984 and have a few drawings, like how they constructed the dome and the roof conduits. Would you like anything?

 

Dave

[Colin parks]

Hi Colin.

 

That's going to look nice.

 

1. Did you get my reply about the photos?

 

2. Can't remember if I sent you anything on the 2 Hals. I measured one of the motor coaches of 023in 1984 and have a few drawings, like how they constructed the dome and the roof conduits. Would you like anything?

 

Dave

 

Hi Dave, Good to hear from you.

 

1. No, I didn't get the reply!

 

2. If you've got anything on the HALs that would be very much appreciated. The top of the domed cab roof is a bit a of mystery, so any photos or information on that in particular, would help. The plans book shows the centre segment finishing as a point. Is that true?! The roof profile is the same as a 2 BIL from what I have read. I like these units partly because it looks like a Bulleid design bursting out of the front of a Maunsell coach.

 

There are some photos of the HAL unit on the 2 HAP topic. I am presuming that a first series 2 HAL had the same underfrme as a 2 BIL. Is that correct? I have decided to model a HAL in passenger service condition i.e. with all the seats and partitions etc. The departmental service units are interesting, but would be out of place on my layout. I mentioned the picture of 2 PAN (as it was classified by then) unit 023 simply because it is rare to find such a good photo on the web.

 

ALL the best,

 

Colin

[5Bel]

Hi Colin,

 

Looking good so far. I will be following with interest. I am thinking of updating my SRG 2Hal to bring it up to my current standards and repainting it Green with full yellow end. Good luck.

 

Cheers for now, Ian.

[Colin parks]

Hi Colin,

 

Looking good so far. I will be following with interest. I am thinking of updating my SRG 2Hal to bring it up to my current standards and repainting it Green with full yellow end. Good luck.

 

Cheers for now, Ian.

 

Hi Ian,

 

I shall be painting my HAL in the same livery as you then!

 

Progress on the model has been hampered somewhat by doubt as to whether the roof profile is like a 2 BIl or a 2 HAP. I had close shave last night when I realised that the commode handles are of a Bulleid

design and not as drawn the plan. There are also two door bangs per compartment door. The holes were going to be drilled as per drawing - that would have meant a lot of wrongly placed holes to fill!

 

I have started on the cab fronts though, this photo shows the window openings being shaped:

 

 

Some of the pencil lines are off centre, but the window marking are correct. You can see how the opening-out involves working gradually towards the pencil marks

 

Setting out these fronts has been fun: they have to be the correct width when folded and are slightly lower than the sides. The sides will not be so high when the tumblehome is formed - it all needs some careful calculation.

[iL Dottore]

Very nice bit of scratchbuilding there. You certainly have much more patience than I. Would I be wrong in assuming that once you have the windows and fronts cut out, you will be adding a tumblehome to the sides? I'd be very interested in picking up some tips about curving plastic sheet

Wow! Cutting out all of those large radius window corners must have driven you spare! Great stuff, Colin. I'll be watching your progress with great interest.

It's one of those things I find tedious and, if I want to keep consistent, I can only cut a few windows at a time. Given that there are not so many window dimensions around for house and carriage windows, perhaps some entrepreneurial soul could turn some light steel punches for the most common window sizes?

 

F

[Colin parks]

Very nice bit of scratchbuilding there. You certainly have much more patience than I. Would I be wrong in assuming that once you have the windows and fronts cut out, you will be adding a tumblehome to the sides? I'd be very interested in picking up some tips about curving plastic sheet

It's one of those things I find tedious and, if I want to keep consistent, I can only cut a few windows at a time. Given that there are not so many window dimensions around for house and carriage windows, perhaps some entrepreneurial soul could turn some light steel punches for the most common window sizes?

 

F

 

 

Hi Dottore,

 

Thanks for your commments. As for the tumblhome forming, I have already posted a picture on the 2 HAP topic. This particular model has quite a sharp tumblehome below window level with a flat upper surface to cantrail height. I shall form the curve in the same way as before, with a suitable wooden handle rubbed up and down the length of the side while it is supported just on the bottom edge until the correct shape is achieved. The way to keep the side in shape is to laminate a curved strip of plastic sheet on the inside.

 

Re. punching plastic sheet, to make window openings. It simply wouldn't work. The plastic would distort and even if it could be done, how would you line the punch up? Even a small error looks very noticeable, as can been seen in the photos! Plus the fact that this unit would need eight punches, makes cutting with a knife the best option. It's not that hard, try and get a copy of David Jenkinson's 'Carriage Building Made Easy'. It is written for 7mm coach construction, but the cutting and marking out techniques use the same principles.

 

Colin

[pete_mcfarlane]

Coli,

 

I'd say that the roof is to the Maunsell profile - a couple of 2-Bil units acquired 2-Hal driving trailers, and there's a photo of 2088 in Alan Williams "Southern Electric Album". The roofs of the Bil and Hal vehicles appear to be to the same profile (there's also a picture of the 7-TC unit which shows the difference between Maunsell and Bulleid profiles).

 

The only photos I can find of one of these units on the net shows 2088 looking a bit poorly on it's side. Interesting but not much help..

 

One thing I'm not sure about is the trussing on the driving trailer - Goulding show it as being different from the motor coach (and the Bil trailer). Mike King shows them as being the same. Photographs suggest that there are different, if not exactly as Goulding has drawn it. Still confused about this.

 

I've now got a couple of the Kirk/Branchlines conversions in my to do pile, so I'll be watching with interest.

 

Pete

[Colin parks]

Coli,

 

I'd say that the roof is to the Maunsell profile - a couple of 2-Bil units acquired 2-Hal driving trailers, and there's a photo of 2088 in Alan Williams "Southern Electric Album". The roofs of the Bil and Hal vehicles appear to be to the same profile (there's also a picture of the 7-TC unit which shows the difference between Maunsell and Bulleid profiles).

 

The only photos I can find of one of these units on the net shows 2088 looking a bit poorly on it's side. Interesting but not much help..

 

One thing I'm not sure about is the trussing on the driving trailer - Goulding show it as being different from the motor coach (and the Bil trailer). Mike King shows them as being the same. Photographs suggest that there are different, if not exactly as Goulding has drawn it. Still confused about this.

 

I've now got a couple of the Kirk/Branchlines conversions in my to do pile, so I'll be watching with interest.

 

Pete

 

Hi Pete,

 

I have been looking at all the pictures of BILs and HALs that I can and I am still not sure about the roof profile. You would think that a HAL would have a Maunsell roof profile, which seems slightly flatter towards the middle/top. However. looking at photos of HALs viewed from above like the photo on the front of Michael Welch's ' A Southern Electric Album' and a photo in the Hornby Magazine (Jan 2010 p.106), I'm not so sure. Indeed, on p.102-103 of the same Hornby Magazine, there are photos of a Kirk 2 BIL. The roof doesn't look to be the same profile as the prototype HAL's roof three pages on.

 

So good luck with the HAL conversions!

 

Re. the trussing, it does appear that the trailer coach of a HAL has wider spaced 'queen posts' (if that is the correct term). Thanks for pointing it out, I hadn't noticed the disparity. The Golding plans do seem to match the official photo of a 2 HAL on p.94 in this respect.

 

Colin

[Ceptic]

Hi Colin.

 

It's always good to see great modelling taking place, Great stuff.

 

Regarding the central panel of the front roof dome, there's a half decent 3/4 overhead shot of HAL unit 2639 on the front cover of Michael Welch's "A Southern Electric Album", Publr. Capital Transport. It shows the panel does taper in on both sides, by a couple of inches (I'd say), but not to a central point.

Also, if you look closely at an end-on photo you'll notice that the body sides/corners are not vertically parallel. I.E. Wider at the cornice level, (8' -11" wide on R4 Maunsell / 8' - 8 1/4" on Bulleid)), than at the solebar (8' - 3" on both).

 

I'll look out what info' l've got on underframes, and get back to you.

 

Regards, Frank

[Colin parks]

Hi Colin.

 

It's always good to see great modelling taking place, Great stuff.

 

Regarding the central panel of the front roof dome, there's a half decent 3/4 overhead shot of HAL unit 2639 on the front cover of Michael Welch's "A Southern Electric Album", Publr. Capital Transport. It shows the panel does taper in on both sides, by a couple of inches (I'd say), but not to a central point.

Also, if you look closely at an end-on photo you'll notice that the body sides/corners are not vertically parallel. I.E. Wider at the cornice level, (8' -11" wide on R4 Maunsell / 8' - 8 1/4" on Bulleid)), than at the solebar (8' - 3" on both).

 

I'll look out what info' l've got on underframes, and get back to you.

 

Regards, Frank

 

Hi Frank,

 

I think making this model is going to require a lot more thought than I previously expected!

 

I would tend to agree with you about the cab dome's central segment. It makes sense for the panel to end with an edge where it joins the wooden roof rather than a point. I have the book you mention, but the picture does not really show the top of the cab clearly.

 

As for the body measurements, do you mean the body excluding the cab? I shall check the drawing, just in case it does not measure up. But the cab sides are surely vertically parallel aren't they? The width of the HAL cab is the same at top and bottom of the main body sides as far as I can see.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[dasatcopthorne]

Colin.

 

Sorry not to get straight back to you.

 

1. Re the pics for the article, I sent you a Yes. Do you want anything in particular?

 

 

2. Did I say I had measured a DM? I'm having trouble tracking down my BR GA drawing for the body and the roof conduits.

 

The dome. It mates with the roof and the joint is covered by a strip, probably a metal band.

 

The cab. When you look end on I think the cab is very slightly narrower at the bottom. Im still looking for the drawing.

 

Dave

[Colin parks]

Thanks to Ceptic disaster has been avoided with the cab!

 

I have just had a look at the plans and several photos. Now I can see that the cab does taper inwards towards the solebar. The measurements on the drawing seem to be exactly as Ceptic said. I have not picked up on this feature, asuming it was just an effect of the camera lenses.

 

I would like to think I would have noticed the tapering cab as work progressed, but then again......

 

Colin

[dasatcopthorne]

Colin.

 

I have found the dome drawing but ther best I can do is to take some digital shots of theA3+ sized drawing.

 

Dave

[number6]

David - those drawings are like a holy grail of roof curvature! I may have to revisit the shapes I settled on when filing the roof of my CC1 which a dead ringer for this design. Also makes me pine slightly for proper technical drawings.

 

Colin. Wishing you the best of luck with this unit. Have always thought the cabs of the HALs had a rather bolted on look and a rather an unhappy junction with the carriage body itself. Very unlike the BIL which is much cleaner in appearance. Some funny looking seams and ridges, and a cant rail that ends in an odd position that could easily all look like a mistake. Some model versions available seem to accentuate this feature and then end up looking wrong. Sure yours will be sublime!

 

Raphael

[Xerces Fobe2]

I take my hat off to you for your attention to detail for what is a very interesting project. I am looking forward to seeing the finished product.

 

Xerces Fobe

[Colin parks]

Colin.

 

I have found the dome drawing but ther best I can do is to take some digital shots of theA3+ sized drawing.

 

Dave

 

 

Many, many thanks Dave.

 

The photos of the drawings are just what was needed. Now, does that mean that the 2 HAL roof was the same as a Maunsell one? It looks to be more domed.

 

In the Brian Golding plans book, he has drawn the 2 HAL end profile as being slightly different to the 2 BIL.

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

 

Colin. Wishing you the best of luck with this unit. Have always thought the cabs of the HALs had a rather bolted on look and a rather an unhappy junction with the carriage body itself. Very unlike the BIL which is much cleaner in appearance. Some funny looking seams and ridges, and a cant rail that ends in an odd position that could easily all look like a mistake. Some model versions available seem to accentuate this feature and then end up looking wrong. Sure yours will be sublime!

 

Raphael

 

Hi Raphael,

 

It looks like luck will be needed.

 

I rather liked the look of the HAL's front end. Whatever you think of it, the cab is quite distinctive! The cantrail will be fun to model as you say, stopping short of the cab roof. At least we now know what the cab looked like though. The plan with the model is to make the body sections with the tumblehome as the main bodyshell with the cab planted on the front. There is a very tricky bit of shaping to do at the front of each side where the tumblehome flattens to join the cab. This will have to be done before attaching the cab.

 

As for the roof, it will be made full length and then have a triangle cut out of the cab end to let in the three dome segments. The join from steel cab to wooden roof is very subtle on the prototype, so the seams will have to represented using thin plastic sheet and certainly not an over-size ridge.

 

Meanwhile, the sides still need the holes for door bangs drilled before any shaping of the tumblehome etc.

 

Colin

[pete_mcfarlane]

I think the drawings answer the question about the roof profile! That's so typically Bulleid - slightly different from what went before for no obvious reason

[Ceptic]

Hi Colin.

My observations made, regarding the underframe 'Queenpost' spacings may only serve to confuse the issue even more.

The Skinley 2-HAL drawings , P48/9H, show the inside distance to be the same on both the Motor Brake, and the Trailer, at 32mm.(8ft.), the same as the 2-BIL. The only equipment shown, is that seen from the LH side of the Motor, and the RH side of the Trailer, again, the same as the 2-BIL.

Although,after studying that official photo in the Brian Golding book, l would have agreed with you, Colin, Pete, and B.Golding, that the spacing is wider on the HAL Trailer.

Here comes the extra confusion...Just before posting, I went back to double-check through a few other albums. On page 33, of Bradford Barton's 'Southern Electrics', there's a pic.of hybrid 2-BIL/HAL unit 2133, with an ex- Bulleid 'Tin' HAL Trailer + 2-BIL Motor. The differing roof profiles / widths being quite evident. The other thing of interest, is that the underframe queenposts are / appear to be spaced at the 8ft. distance on the Trailer.

This u/f type also shows up on another pic. of a Bulleid HAL, unit 2700, on top of page 39. of the aforesaid Micheal Welch album.

 

Regarding the front dome question, many thanks to Dave for his clarification, including research, photography and posting in, Cheers.

 

P.S. The only drawing l've seen of the tapered cab front. is that shown of the 1941 built, dome-ended, 4-SUBs (The 'Shebas'), in the MRC Planbook No1. Possibly, O.V.S.Bulleids efforts to mix'n'match the best of both worlds / profiles ??.

 

Sorry for being a PITA.

 

Regards. Frank.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Here comes the extra confusion...Just before posting, I went back to double-check through a few other albums. On page 33, of Bradford Barton's 'Southern Electrics', there's a pic.of hybrid 2-BIL/HAL unit 2133, with an ex- Bulleid 'Tin' HAL Trailer + 2-BIL Motor. The differing roof profiles / widths being quite evident. The other thing of interest, is that the underframe queenposts are / appear to be spaced at the 8ft. distance on the Trailer.

This u/f type also shows up on another pic. of a Bulleid HAL, unit 2700, on top of page 39. of the aforesaid Micheal Welch album.

I think at least some of the Steel HAL type trailers were built on existing underframes, which may explain this. 2700 was an oddball with one of these trailers coupled to a SUB motor coach (in the best traditions of the Southern forming units out of random coaches).