Gresley Buffet Cars in the 70s

[Southernman46]

Definately saw one of these (9135 I think) at Weymouth in 1973 on a train from Leeds or Newcastle

[Bob Reid]

The two Thompson buffet cars were built in 1948 so date from the BR era, albeit to a pre-nationalisation design. More than half of the Thompson stock was built post-nationalisation, though it continued to be turned out in ersatz teak until Spring 1949, apart from 1948 experimental liveries. A similar situation to that with the final coaching stock designs of the other Big Four companies.

 

Harris gives the month of change to Crimson & Cream as March 1949 however I doubt 'Ersatz' would, albeit having been used at times since the mid 30s, have been an appropriate title for imitation teak finish in the post-war years!

[robertcwp]

Harris gives the month of change to Crimson & Cream as March 1949 however I doubt 'Ersatz' would, albeit having been used at times since the mid 30s, have been an appropriate title for imitation teak finish in the post-war years!

Good point! I forgot it was of German origin, though it's an accepted English word and as an adjective it simply means fake or substitute (per Chambers). Did the LNER have an official term for the livery?

[Scottish Modeller]

Good point! I forgot it was of German origin, though it's an accepted English word and as an adjective it simply means fake or substitute (per Chambers). Did the LNER have an official term for the livery?

Hi Robert,

 

I've always thought is was just referred to as 'Teak Brown' regardless of if it was on panneled stock or in psuedo teak livery?

 

I'll dive into the loft tommorrow to check my source on this but I have a feeeling it was given as this in one of the LNER books.

 

Thanks

[Bob Reid]

The ex-Cowlairs/LNER painter I knew at St.Rollox just called it "scumbled" - no doubt a local term with many variations - though a finish once seen a lot on tenement doors (used to cover poor quality/age damaged wood) and not just around Springburn!

[Trevellan]

I've found the image I mentioned earlier in this thread and I'm not as senile as I thought. It was indeed E9131E and was used on a Merrymaker Mystery Tour from my home area to Southport. The shot was taken after arrival at Southport. At the buffer stops was class 40 no. 308, having hauled us from Crewe. The date was 22nd September 1973.

[robertcwp]

There were coaches painted in what was sometimes referred to as teak paint but was basically brown. Michael Harris commented that the shade varied from works to works. This livery was, for example, applied to some pre-grouping stock and some Tourist stock during the war (a colour photo appears in The Big Four in Colour 1935-1950). The shade seems to have been pretty dark - the one colour photo shows it was nothing like the real varnished teak. The post-war stock was painted with a mock grained finish to look more like genuine teak stock. This approach (in a more elaborate form) was also used on steel-panelled Gresley stock built prior to WW2. The two buffet lounge cars 1705 and 1706 were in this livery when new, changing to crimson/cream by 1952 and maroon in time for the 1957 Summer Elizabethan (their last year in the train). They were rebuilt c1959 and at least one was blue/grey as early as 1966. A colour photo is in the Photos section on my Yahoo Group BRCoachingstock but I can't post it here as I don't own the copyright.

[Fat Controller]

The ex-Cowlairs/LNER painter I knew at St.Rollox just called it "scumbled" - no doubt a local term with many variations - though a finish once seen a lot on tenement doors (used to cover poor quality/age damaged wood) and not just around Springburn!

I always knew that finish as 'scrumbled'- used to give the effect of wood grain on things like interior doors and staircases. It was probably quite convincing until someone invented the 100W bulb....My Uncle bill used to be a dab hand at it.

[Lambton58]

Full brakes (BGs), yes definitely Ralph - both Gresley and Thompson variants lasted in capital stock until around 1976/77, although I'd reckon the one you saw at FP would be in either engineers' or intenal use. But very few ordinary day coaches of pre-BR design made it into the 70s - I think I'm right in saying that Thompsons became extinct in 1968 and Gresleys much earlier (probably 1964/65)

Thanks Ian. Thinking a bit more about it, the example at FP was, I'm pretty certain, used by the engineers. I guess they must have used it as store as it never moved! Only wish now that I'd taken photos of the ordinary things as well as the flashy engines. Also wish I'd checked the previous post and remembered to spell 'brake' correctly!

 

Ralph

Lambton58

[RANGERS]

A colleague of mine has a photo, which he's now trying to find, of one of the survivors in a Sheffield - Skegness rake in the summer of 1977, probably July or August> Although this would have been a service train, it would confirm Leopardml2341's recollections of them on Merrymakers from Sheffield. Presumably the same rakes would have been used for seasonal and special trains.

 

My colleague hasn't managed to find the pic yet but after checking some other events around the same time, he did come back and tell me he'd made a mistake with the date, it was July or August 1976.

 

On another front I received a reply this morning from another friend of a friend who had been a former C&W examiner on the former NE region, he tells me that he understood the two Thompson vehicles had been stored at the end of the summer timetable in 1976, the ScR having withdrawn catering from a number of internal trains. He also was sure that the Thompson vehicles were not disposed of until 1979 but their whereabouts at that time wasn't known. Did either of these survive?

 

As a the last of the LMS sleepers had gone by that time as well, It was his belief that the Gresleys were the last pre-BR designs in service.

[Axlebox]

18th May 1975, school trip from Durham to London...blue/grey Gresley buffet car on the opposite platform at Kings Cross...it had worked in from Bradford (opened the door and removed the sticker from the window)...I remember being told off for planning to steal one of the loose chairs, but did manage to convince one of my teachers to take a picture of it...and to think I was only eleven...now if only I had had the foresight to do something practical like...write the number down!!

 

Regards

Duncan

[Porcy Mane]

I remember being told off for planning to steal one of the loose chairs, but did manage to convince one of my teachers to take a picture of it...and to think I was only eleven...now if only I had had the foresight to do something practical like...write the number down!!

 

I seem to remember you saying that you managed to purloin a couple of knives and forks!

Or knowing what the schools we went to were like, probably just knives...

 

Happy Chrismas to one and all.

Porcy

[45156]

Some of the photos here bring back memories - they were certainly interesting vehicles, and broke up the monotony of rakes and rakes of blue and grey MK1 and Mk2 vehicles which were, by then, just about the norm!

 

I see that 9124 survived - and must revisit it some day on the GCR to renew my student acquaintance with it. Shame that the wags that crewed it are unlikely to have been preserved with it - probably long retired by now, and could't care about buffet cars at all now!

 

Stewart

[BrushVeteran]

I have a reasonable image of E1706E taken at Stratford in 1966/7. As I am away from my PC at present I am unable to post it but it can be viewed on Robert Carrol's excellent BRCS site. If requested I will post it on this site when I return home next week. Happy New Year.

Grahame

[The Stationmaster]

There were coaches painted in what was sometimes referred to as teak paint but was basically brown. Michael Harris commented that the shade varied from works to works. This livery was, for example, applied to some pre-grouping stock and some Tourist stock during the war (a colour photo appears in The Big Four in Colour 1935-1950). The shade seems to have been pretty dark - the one colour photo shows it was nothing like the real varnished teak. The post-war stock was painted with a mock grained finish to look more like genuine teak stock. This approach (in a more elaborate form) was also used on steel-panelled Gresley stock built prior to WW2.

 

I had several relatives who worked in York carriage works and according to my dad's cousin (who was Works Productivity Officer on his retirement in the late 1960s) the postwar mock 'grained' exterior finish was in fact spray painted and once the painters had got the hang of the technique it was very difficult to tell if from hand applied 'graining'.

[Rail-Online]

Just a quickie, I recall one was part of a Norwich -Birmingham train in the TOPS period, I would guess 1975 as by the time I had the 1976 RCTS coaching stock book and therefore started coach spotting, I only underlined W9135E and it was unlikely to be that one. When did the Norwich -Birmingham trains revert to loco hauled stock from DMUs? That might help date the memory.......

 

Cheers Tony

[Colossus]

I travelled regularly on Merrymakers originating from West Yorkshire in the mid seventies , they were usually 40,45 0r 47 hauled MK1's quite often with a Gresley Buffet .

 

Phill

 

Hi Phill

 

Without wanting to deflect the course, too much, of this otherwise fascinating thread on Gresley Buffets, could I press you about your experience

of Merrymakers in W.Yorkshire in the mid 70s please? I wondered if you had any dates/locos/destinations for some I travelled on?

As a young 'un, I went on trips to London, Edinburgh and a "Mystery Tour" which took us to Tynemouth and Whitley Bay, all from Pontefract or Castleford.

On the London trip from Ponte Monkhill in late 1973, we were hauled. I think by, 'Peak' no.27 or 28 and arrived into St Pancras. The Edinburgh merrymaker, probably

early 74, was from Castleford; don't know the northbound loco but we came back behind "Peak" 89 "Hon. Artillery Co." I think the "Mystery tour" which deposited us at a very closed

Whitley Bay I think, in 1972 or 73, was 40 hauled but I'd love to find out more about the dates, locos and possibility of Gresley Buffets on these trips.

If I get "moderated", I'll start a new thread in "prototype" area. Thanks.

[Pennine MC]

Just a quickie, I recall one was part of a Norwich -Birmingham train in the TOPS period, I would guess 1975 as by the time I had the 1976 RCTS coaching stock book and therefore started coach spotting, I only underlined W9135E and it was unlikely to be that one. When did the Norwich -Birmingham trains revert to loco hauled stock from DMUs? That might help date the memory.......

 

 

IIRC the full changeover was a bit later (1977/78), but I think there were loco-hauled services in the summer peak before that.

[Russell Saxton]

Its been mentioned but the harwich-manchester boat train had one in the consist many times in 1976, I didnt take the number but saw it many times between April and october.

[RANGERS]

IIRC the full changeover was a bit later (1977/78), but I think there were loco-hauled services in the summer peak before that.

 

I travelled Leicester to Norwich numerous times between 1977 and 1981, mostly on loco hauled sets. My recollection was that 31s came with the introduction of the summer timetable in 1977. Were the 31s released off the Western with the introduction of HSTs and arrival of the 50s from the LMR? (The steam heat 47s displaced then replaced 31s on the secondary services). Loco sets had had been used to fill in for DMU shortages before that. I believe initially there were 5 returns each day with the remainder still DMU operated and numerous short runs (Birmingham - Leicester, Leicester - Peterborough - Cambridge and Cambridge - Norwich) also DMUs. There were summer dated trains, Birmingham - Yarmouth for one, which pre-dated the wider introduction of loco hauled trains although these were generally hauled by pairs of 25s or type 4s, replaced at the Norwich reversal with local 31s or 37s for the last leg.

 

I don't ever recall seeing a Gresley in any of the regular sets, as they were only 5 coaches, I doubt they had a buffet and the few pics I have in books don't show any but the summer dated trains might have done.

[Rail-Online]

Rangers,

 

I am sure I saw a Gresley Buffet pre 1977, so I guess it was on the Birmingham-Yarmouth train. I recall the 31's used were all ex ER machines not cascaded from the WR, March providing the majority, but Finsbury Park allocations (especially later ETH ones) also making an appearance. Can't recall any Stratford 31's but as I had them all by then it wouldn't surprise me. Yes double headed 25's were common on the Yarmouth trains, again I don't recall Type 4 power, but passing Wigston North (Leicester) it would look like a short MML train anyway!

 

Seems a lifetime ago........

 

Cheers Tony

[Guest Phil]

Rangers,

 

I am sure I saw a Gresley Buffet pre 1977, so I guess it was on the Birmingham-Yarmouth train. I recall the 31's used were all ex ER machines not cascaded from the WR, March providing the majority, but Finsbury Park allocations (especially later ETH ones) also making an appearance. Can't recall any Stratford 31's but as I had them all by then it wouldn't surprise me. Yes double headed 25's were common on the Yarmouth trains, again I don't recall Type 4 power, but passing Wigston North (Leicester) it would look like a short MML train anyway!

 

Seems a lifetime ago........

 

Cheers Tony

 

I concur with Tony.

I sometimes did a bit between Bimingham and Nuneaton and recall most of the boilered 31s were of March's extensive allocation. 3118 blah and 3120 blah were regulars. My time was from 1981 through about 1985, by which time some of the dual heat 31s had started to appear, as well as some cascaded Mk2s.

 

I do believe I travelled in one Gresley buffet on the Manchester-Harwich boat train with sadly never recorded the number.

[Pennine MC]

I 3118 blah and 3120 blah were regulars.

 

So where can I get transfers for those

 

One of my teenage notebooks has '47 0 f*cking 60, 16 poxy 44' writ large in it, no doubt because it turned up on a Western turn

[Gwiwer]

W9135E was a regular on the Portsmouth - Bristol / Cardiff run from as soon as that lost the Inter City dmu sets around 1968. It remains the only Gresley vehicle I have knowingly travelled in and was, at the time, freshly outshopped in blue-grey with a red moquette interior. It was replaced eventually with a Mk1 RMB before the buffet service was withdrawn from that route.

 

The Manchester Piccadilly - Harwich Parkeston Quay boat train was an out and back working for many years requiring only a single set of coaching stock. This included a Gresley buffet for some years which I recall was E9131E.

 

The others which remained in traffic (of which I only knowingly saw E9124E) certainly did turn up at Kings Cross and later in the Highwayman which terminated at Finsbury Park but I don't recall seeing them in the Cambride sets. The Thompson buffets did work to Cambridge however and a photo of one (1706 I believe) was published in The Railway Magazine in 1970 or 71. I no longer have access to copies of that age to confirm more specific details.

 

generally hauled by pairs of 25s or type 4s, replaced at the Norwich reversal with local 31s or 37s for the last leg.

Not all of them reversed in Norwich (Thorpe) station. The avoiding line was still open at the time with some summer dated trains booked to use it. Double-headed 25's were the norm. The last time I made such a trip was from Yarmouth to Doncaster via Reedham (not stopping!), Thorpe curve, Ely avoiding line (the U-turn), March and Spalding via the Axeholme Joint! You haven't been able to do that for a few years.

[Western Star]

When these buffets were built, to diagram D167 in the 1930s, some coaches had cooking equipment which worked on gas and some coaches had cooking equipment which worked with electricity. The LNER Carriage Association has a web site where the Gresley Buffet no. 641 is described as being built with electric cooking... together with two sets of batteries and three dynamos. I have not found a photograph of a "electric" D167 Buffet in "as-built" condition and hence I am not sure of the arrangement of battery boxes / dynamos on the underframe - might anyone be able to help in this matter?

 

A supplementary question, please. Where were the steam heat and vacuum pipe runs on these coaches?

 

Thank you if you are able to help, Graham Beare