Matador Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 http://www.ringengineering.com/RailProVideosPage.htm Is this the end of DCC David A Brit in the USA Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted January 9, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2012 Very impressive - A good marketing video. Not quite certain how plugging in a module and it instantly generates a picture of that loco...... I like the simplicity of setting loco values with the graphics - can see this being taken up with the mainstream manufacturers of DCC. Next move will probably be an iPhone App for this system. Cheers, Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60163 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 The 'end' of DCC? Certainly not! With twenty years' history, development, and sheer penetration and standardization DCC isn't going anywhere either sooner nor later, despite what some nicely polished marketing jargon would like to tell you. Most, if any, DCC systems and components sold today are based on modern technology (would plug and play N gauge sound be feasible in 1992? I think not!) and such claims could be likened to saying that the iPhone is inferior to a competing product because it owes lineage to the clunky brickphones of yesteryear. As someone who has never even built a layout, let alone used DCC, while a 'cute' presentation and certainly put together with good intentions the mere claims the company is insinuating about it's so-named "competitor" is enough to steer me away from potential purchase! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matador Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 The 'end' of DCC? Certainly not! With twenty years' history, development, and sheer penetration and standardization DCC isn't going anywhere either sooner nor later, despite what some nicely polished marketing jargon would like to tell you. Most, if any, DCC systems and components sold today are based on modern technology (would plug and play N gauge sound be feasible in 1992? I think not!) and such claims could be likened to saying that the iPhone is inferior to a competing product because it owes lineage to the clunky brickphones of yesteryear. As someone who has never even built a layout, let alone used DCC, while a 'cute' presentation and certainly put together with good intentions the mere claims the company is insinuating about it's so-named "competitor" is enough to steer me away from potential purchase! Maybe I should have said "Is this the begining of the end of DCC" I can remember when DCC first came out in the US, GE ASTRAC System and everyone said nothing can ever replace DC. Anyway it was meant as an FYI nothing to raise your Blood Pressure about David A Brit in the USA Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 i like the look of that it obviously is a next step, the fact that the loco's use the same DCC pin connector is good,and make use of the fact modern dcc ready loco's have lights etc. and if dcc hadnt existed before then it would have been harder for this system to take advantage. the module looked a little big, that was the only thing I could see, if they dont do any smaller ones at the moment they no doubt will shrink like other electric products if they become popular. does the module include a battery that is charged from the track? if so that'll give greater reliable running. i like the idea of nominating pictures for functions rather than memorising what sounds and functions are set to F keys, thats something that bugs me now as i can never remember. or i have to explain to someone else who is going to use it, i suppose a touch screen interface could be developed for normal dcc, the current ones now do look a little old fashioned, but the big thing for me is not having to mess about wih CV's, its too nerdy and time consuming for me, even though the whole hobby is i suppose anything that makes it simpler to use and gives better running I think is a good idea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 A promising start, but not at those prices! What about sound, and rout setting? Gordon A Bristol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Eh? Sound was demonstrated in the part 1 video. For people who say DCC is forever look at what happened to the CD......are there any CD plants left in the UK? I remember going to the opening of EMI's Swindon plant. It's all history now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted January 9, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2012 I like the simplicity of setting loco values with the graphics - can see this being taken up with the mainstream manufacturers of DCC. Cheers, Mick I'm a H&M Duette user, but isn't that pretty much what DecoderPro gives you? Having to set CV values using a controller looks like 1970s computer programming to me, having a proper GUI makes me marginally more likely to buy in long term. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Firstly DCC has never (and isn't likely to) replace DC and this is not going to replace DCC - however there is room for some newer/different technology. Especially if it cheaper or more appealing or easier to use than DCC. My own view is that I am sure I have seen something like this before, but not as neatly packaged. I am struggling to see so much of a difference from DCC, so see it as an extension to DCC. Power is still from the track and the drive is digitally controlled by a decoded digital signal. I think it has one serious drawback though. It is very much a US product in design and use - once again we see the US blinkered product design to the US market rather than thinking global. That even starts right from the beginning with the "HO" tag - since when has such a control system been gauge dependent? My final thought is it also falls down in the user requirement of having childlike fingers to be able to operate it. As someone who finds even a standard qwerty keyboard as thumb challenging having to touch a small area on a small screen is beyond my dexterity. This then reduces such technology to that level of a gimmick. (I accept that applies to similar systems in DCC or for that matter in DC. It remains an outsider and time will tell if it catches an adequate fraction of the market to survive. Revisit in about 10 years and see if it has reached the same acceptance level as Betamax and Super 8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Zero1 for the 21st century. Looks good, many enticing features etc. A basic setup of PSU, controller, modules for 6 locos and 6 points (as a fairly typical entry scenario) costs in excess of £1100 before any transatlantic shipping is added. Single supplier of hardware and software dependence for upgrades? What happens if they pulled their plug? Bulky modules which will be difficult to engineer space for in 'our' smaller products. It's doomed to be a niche interest for a never particularly substantial number of evangelists which will gradually reduce over the years (certainly outside the US). Brilliant but unlikely to gain much acceptance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted January 9, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2012 Firstly, unless they open up the communications and loco decoder standards for any manufacturer to work with and get the NMRA on board to agree to said standards, then I don't see this being successful. It'll just be another control system sitting on the periphery of DC and DCC. Secondly, there is a huge installed base of DCC layouts, and even though it can work alongside without issue (according to them), having to set up such a secondary system will put off quite a few people even if only because of the cost. Thirdly, in the two videos they're overstating the interface, obviously having a go at the aged Lenz system. There are better interfaces for DCC out there, and no doubt will improve over time. I realize that the videos were put together to appeal to a wider audience than just railway modelling die-hards. But from a technical modeller's perspective what they should have concentrated on was the one element under the skin that makes it better - the radio based communication. They did briefly mention some of it's advantages, but didn't 'sell' them enough. It's faster (and scalable), something that the through-the-track comms of DCC never can be. It's two-way, something that DCC only achieves through RailCom, which is proving difficult to get going. But more than anything it achieves vehicle-to-vehicle communication, and that they did put some stress on. V2V is very powerful, and could help with drivers coupling up at a distance as it could provide feedback on precisely how close the loco (or it's attached coaches or wagons) are to the stationary vehicle being coupled to and relay that to the controller. Additionally, V2V is something that full automation systems need by default. But missing was any information on the transmitter/receiver set up. A wireless system, designed properly, should be able to use triangulation off multiple (at least three) transceiver stations so you could see exactly where any moduled vehicle was on your layout at any time. Very valuable both for the signalman and the driver. Little mention was made of scalability - how the system can be extended to be used on large layouts, something I would have expected to see on a US-centric product. It's a nice start, but not there yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
amdaley Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Impressive presentation for a start but there would need to be more than pretty graphics. Would be costly to set up even a simple system. Those loco modules look quite big & at a $100 each ? I suppose if you were starting from scratch & only using large American locos then it might make sense but there are a few things that need to change before it would make a large dent in the market outside the US. There would also be technical problems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted January 9, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2012 I am struggling to see so much of a difference from DCC, so see it as an extension to DCC. Power is still from the track and the drive is digitally controlled by a decoded digital signal. I think it has one serious drawback though. It is very much a US product in design and use - once again we see the US blinkered product design to the US market rather than thinking global. That even starts right from the beginning with the "HO" tag - since when has such a control system been gauge dependent? My final thought is it also falls down in the user requirement of having childlike fingers to be able to operate it. As someone who finds even a standard qwerty keyboard as thumb challenging having to touch a small area on a small screen is beyond my dexterity. This then reduces such technology to that level of a gimmick. (I accept that applies to similar systems in DCC or for that matter in DC. It remains an outsider and time will tell if it catches an adequate fraction of the market to survive. Revisit in about 10 years and see if it has reached the same acceptance level as Betamax and Super 8. Having watched the video, the principal advantages over DCC would appear to be a much higher level of auto configuration, and the separation of power and control - hopefully removing any need for 'keep alive' functionality in decoders. Weighed against that, the use of radio for control gives cost and logistics issues when marketed on a global basis, plus potential problems with interference from other devices. I'm not at all convinced it's enough of a technological step forward to convert existing DCC users or Duette users like me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted January 9, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2012 i like the idea of nominating pictures for functions rather than memorising what sounds and functions are set to F keys, thats something that bugs me now as i can never remember. or i have to explain to someone else who is going to use it, i suppose a touch screen interface could be developed for normal dcc, the current ones now do look a little old fashioned, but the big thing for me is not having to mess about wih CV's, its too nerdy and time consuming for me, even though the whole hobby is i suppose That is the main issue that makes most DCC systems look clunky to me, this whole CV business and function mapping, but I would think it would be technically feasible to offer a fancy controller using existing DCC that would provide a much better GUI - I'm assuming the likes of ECoS don't already do that? It would be interesting to see if someone can come up with a 'super DCC' system which leverages the principal advantage of this system (IMHO) - the auto configuration - and overalys it on existing DCC, so that a high degree of backwards compatibility would be maintained. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Firstly, this is not new and has been mentioned on RMweb before. Secondly, it would be wise not to confuse the modern graphical user interface on the RailPro controller, with this system's differences from DCC. What you are seeing here with RailPro is two things. One is the proprietary radio based digital control system and the other is the application of a modern GUI. The second of those can just as easily be implemented in a modern DCC system handset. In previous discussions, several members including myself, have suggested that the next most useful advance in DCC would be development of the user interface away from clunky old fashioned handsets, such as those from a number of leading DCC suppliers, towards a more modern and intuitive GUI. Early examples of developments in this area, include the larger advanced consoles, such as the ECoS, Commander and CS2 and the first applications to smaller handheld throttles. An early example of an improved graphically based UI on a handheld throttle is the Bachmann Dynamis handset; but even when this was released, it was obvious that the mono screen technology used was fairly crude and "old fashioned", no doubt down to cost. A more recent example is the new Zimo MX32 throttle, but this only combines a traditional handset, with a small touch screen. The most advanced applications we've seen so far, have come in the form of Smartphone apps, particularly those that do not require the use of a PC running control software and which speak directly to the DCC system through WiFi (e.g. TouchCab). What other developments may be in the pipeline, we don't yet know, but I'm convinced that in time we'll see a continued move in this direction. ....the module looked a little big, that was the only thing I could see, if they dont do any smaller ones at the moment they no doubt will shrink like other electric products if they become popular. That module will be a problem for fitting in locos with only tight space available. Shrinking it may be difficult as it contains a wireless transceiver and sound decoder too. does the module include a battery that is charged from the track? No, it uses constant track power like DCC. The RailPro track power supply uses constant voltage Pure DC, but they say the system will also work on DCC powered track, but it cannot read the DCC signals. If you want on-board battery DCC, have a look at systems like the Stanton S-Cab, CVP Easy-DCC Airwire system, NCE ProCab G-Wire etc. ....I like the idea of nominating pictures for functions rather than memorising what sounds and functions are set to F keys, thats something that bugs me now as i can never remember. or i have to explain to someone else who is going to use it, i suppose a touch screen interface could be developed for normal dcc, the current ones now do look a little old fashioned, Already available with the more advanced DCC systems Michael. Graphics for functions and touch screens are already available on several DCC systems and on the Smartphone apps I mentioned earlier. As I've already suggested, don't confused the GUI aspect of this system with the wireless and digital control aspects. They are different things. ....but the big thing for me is not having to mess about wih CV's, its too nerdy and time consuming for me, even though the whole hobby is i suppose anything that makes it simpler to use and gives better running I think is a good idea. To an extent, already being handled by the more advanced DCC systems, but RailPro seems to be moving things on here with a degree of automation. .....I think it has one serious drawback though. It is very much a US product in design and use - once again we see the US blinkered product design to the US market rather than thinking global. Definitely a disadvantage in terms of global sales, but I think the USA & Canada are probably a big enough market to keep a company going. ...My final thought is it also falls down in the user requirement of having childlike fingers to be able to operate it. As someone who finds even a standard qwerty keyboard as thumb challenging having to touch a small area on a small screen is beyond my dexterity. Maybe, they'll do a "big button' version, like those telephones... .....It remains an outsider and time will tell if it catches an adequate fraction of the market to survive. Revisit in about 10 years and see if it has reached the same acceptance level as Betamax and Super 8. Any proprietary system is going to be at a huge disadvantage to one that is virtually a global standard. The real challenge is how DCC is ushered on to the next level, whilst maintaining that global acceptance within a set of organised standards. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted January 9, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2012 Personally, if I was chucking the baby out with the bathwater in terms of legacy control systems, I'd want a system like the old Exactoscale Red Arrow, but using Bluetooth radio rather than infra-red for communication. No more track cleaning! http://www.raymondwalley.com/reviews/other/infrared.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Probably all the issues mentioned above could be overcome if they are given time. It IS useful in giving DCC a kick up the rear. Their biggest hurdle is, of course, the NMRA. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted January 9, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2012 I agree with Andy that the single manufacturer would be my greatest worry but I can't agree on some of the other points. Size isn't a problem as if it's successful more decoders will appear, I feel they have sensibly chosen a single unit for establishing the product in the much larger US market we will follow if it succeeds. I remember the early soundtraxx sound decoders that required two chips and a speaker squeezing in and it took several years for prices to come down and a UK importer to specialise in UK sounds to bring dcc sound to the mass Market. Now we have several suppliers of sound decoders ready programmer for the UK and different manufacturers. I think removing the reliance on track power is one thing that would be a useful development especially with the big US models or in larger scales where battery packs could be fitted in the locos. Price wise if you add up the cost of a radio throttle from EsU etc and the system then it's not much more though a cheaper basic running throttle like digitrax offer, without set up features, would encourage a quicker take up as additional throttles. This is still new technology for model railways so will require a few of the iPhone generation of tech must haves to lead the way for it to work. Ergonomically I was a little disappointed to see you need two hands to operate it and rethinking the position of the knob or using a roller would allow single handed use. So if they can establish a market in the US I think this has possibilities as it could be made compatible with conventional dc and dcc models. I do think they need to follow Lenz though and open up the technology for this to happen or they will fall foul of the worry about supporting the product. Take the gamble and say we have to strive to be one of the Market leaders and share it with respected names in sound units and they might well threaten dcc long term. Add some lipo cells and a wide range of sounds and you have a truly versatile system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 .....as it could be made compatible with conventional dc and dcc models...... It's already part compatible with DCC (it can be used independently on a DCC powered layout), but I can't see how it could be compatible with DC as it require a constant voltage supply, DC or DCC ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 For clarification.... From the RailPro FAQ's Q: If my club is DCC can I run RailPro on the club layout? A: YES. You can take your RailPro equipped locomotives and Handheld controllers to a club that has a DCC layout and run it on their layout. You can run your RailPro locomotives on the same tracks and at the same time while other club members are controlling their DCC locomotives. However, you will only be able to select and control RailPro equipped locomotives and you will not be able to control DCC locomotives. DCC cabs will not be able to control your RailPro locomotive because RailPro locomotive modules only respond to Direct Radio commands from RailPro controllers such as the HC-1 handheld controller. Q: Is RailPro DCC compatible? A: YES and NO. You can run RailPro locomotives on any manufacturers DCC system** using our HC-1 handheld controller. Our locomotive modules can use DCC as power source and respond to commands from RailPro controllers such as our HC-1 handheld controller with Direct Radio. Further, our locomotive modules are electrically compatible with the DCC plug found in many locomotives to promote easy installation. However, our locomotive modules respond to RailPro Direct Radio commands only, they DO NOT respond to DCC commands, and cannot be controlled or setup with any DCC system. Our RailPro system does not control DCC products. Our RailPro system is more capable and can do things DCC systems cannot because of Direct Radio, and it is much simpler to use than any DCC offering. ** The DCC system voltage must be less than 20 volts peak and only consist of the signal specified in NMRA standards. There are some debating points contained in the following two links.... RailPro comparison with DCC RailPro FAQ's . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Already available with the more advanced DCC systems Michael. Graphics for functions and touch screens are already available on several DCC systems and on the Smartphone apps I mentioned earlier. As I've already suggested, don't confused the GUI aspect of this system with the wireless and digital control aspects. They are different things. . yes but the smartphones dont have an actual knob on them so the feel isnt there as much when controlling a loco, i wouldnt want to hold a phone all day at a show for exampe, and what happens if the phone rings while your in the middle of doing something? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 yes but the smartphones dont have an actual knob on them so the feel isnt there as much when controlling a loco..... That's quite true and will be a disadvantage for many, but advanced handsets like the Zimo MX32 retain the physical controls as well. If and when other manufacturers get up to speed, they may produce something that is the best of both worlds. i wouldnt want to hold a phone all day at a show for exampe, and what happens if the phone rings while your in the middle of doing something? In the case of Apple based apps, it doesn't need to be a phone. it can be an iPod Touch or iPad. In any case, with a smartphone, just turn the phone bit off (airplane mode - every phone has it) and keep the WiFi switched on. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 9, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2012 It's doomed to be a niche interest for a never particularly substantial number of evangelists which will gradually reduce over the years (certainly outside the US). Brilliant but unlikely to gain much acceptance. Pretty much the same as what was said about the motor car/railways/aeroplanes/computers etc etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 there are a few things that need to change before it would make a large dent in the market outside the US. Remember that to a lot of americans there is nothing beyond the east and west coast - they simply don't bother with the rest of the world to any degree, and international history or news is only ever mentioned there if it somehow affects America directly, and paints the USA in a positive light. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 the more i think about this the more i like it, the idea that you can download your own sounds and pictures from your pc, just as you would with a sat nav for example is nice, my nce powercab is a bit big and the display does look a bit like an old calculator, and i cant even write BOOBLESS on it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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