Waverley Route new image links and discussion

['CHARD]

According to my copy of the Industrial Railway Societies' handbook the 'Industrial Railways of Scotland' Lady Victoria Colliery never had any MOS Austerity 0-6-0ST locos allocated [J94 only applies to those members of the class purchased by the LNER].

 

Lady Victoria was best known for its Andrew Barclay and Grant Ritchie 0-4-2STs, which unfortunately I missed seeing. The Grant Ritchie later ended up at the Prestongrange museum and the Barclay, I believe, went to the Tanfield Railway, though I don't know where either of these loco are now.

Having just searched the CARHMS site that Jamie has so helpfully provided a link to, using 'Lady Victoria colliery' as search phrase, about half a dozen B&W photos were there showing this loco at work. Well worth a go!

Edited January 4, 2012 by 'CHARD

[Jamie]

This is another site that is hard to navigate around. Well for me at least.

They have an excellent collection of maps. It should be possible to view large scale maps and to view the same section of map as at different dates. I did this for the Balerno branch once but cannot remember exactly where to find the maps or how to do it. It's worth a look as it does make finding the locations of old photographs a lot easier.

Bernard

Haven't found that myself Bernard - unless you're thinking of the National Library of Scotland site?

 

The RCAHMS map-based search is chronic on an applemac, but the text search is much simpler than it was 18months or so ago. Just a matter of picking the right keywords.

- "Waverley" tends to bring up some boat and a big station in Edinburgh, which is a bit of a hindrance

[Bernard Lamb]

I don't think we have had this one yet.

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=23018

Bernard

[Guest Max Stafford]

Wonder which loco it is. I'm not convinced it has a yellow panel, even at this late stage!

 

Dave.

[Pennine MC]

Wonder which loco it is. I'm not convinced it has a yellow panel, even at this late stage!

.

 

Mmm, the light's difficult but I think you're right. If 8033 survived into late '68 like that (viz my ramblings elsewhere), it wouldnt surprise me if there were others into '67

['CHARD]

I think this 20 may well be the subject of the sequence in the 'Britain's Lost Main Line - The Waverley route' vid. I'll check it when I have chance (i.e. family out), if so, then there are several seconds where it's possible to get a better look at that bonnet/ bunnet.

[Jamie]

I *think* I can make out a line on the nose roughly level with the top of the diagonal stripe on the 16 tonner where the tone lightens below - like the top of a SYP.

 

It's very faint, so could easily be my eyes/imagination!

[62440]

Mmm, the light's difficult but I think you're right. If 8033 survived into late '68 like that (viz my ramblings elsewhere), it wouldnt surprise me if there were others into '67

 

Here's a scan of the front of the loco done at 4000 dpi - can't do any better, sorry.

[Bernard Lamb]

First number is an eight!

Some branches tended to use the same loco on a regular basis. I don't know if that was the case with Langholm. The loco used for the August 1967 'official last train' did have a SYP. Is it that loco or another seems to be the question? Havn't been able to decipher the number on that one either although there are several photos of that particular working about.

Bernard

[Pennine MC]

Some branches tended to use the same loco on a regular basis. I don't know if that was the case with Langholm.

 

Wouldnt have thought so Bernard - the 20s on that job were (generally) Glasgow-based ones used in layover time at Carlisle

['CHARD]

In steam days the branch does seem to have been associated with a hard core of a few 4MTs: 43139 for example put in mileages that would've taken it to the moon and back, but what remained of the traffic latterly seems, as Ian says, to have been dished out to whatever Kingmoor had to hand. Steam was still extant at Kingmoor when the branch shut, but presumably nothing nimble enough for the duty. Would love to know when the last steam working was - Easter '67 is my guess (43139 natch!).

 

Incidentally, I assume that the branch freight would not have originated in Kingmoor yard, but one of the surviving smaller local yards. It just seems that the nature of the few wagon loads would have no place really in amongst the inter-regional leviathans...

[MartinWales]

Mmm, the light's difficult but I think you're right. If 8033 survived into late '68 like that (viz my ramblings elsewhere), it wouldnt surprise me if there were others into '67

 

There's a picture of D8033 ,GFYE, ex-works at Crewe on 26th January 1969 p23 Class 20's in Colour by Andrew Fell, Midland Publishing 1994, so there's a good chance that Ian's hunch is correct

[62440]

Another at Gilnockie - September 1967, three weeks after last steam working.

 

Picture is subtitled, "Triffids invade 40 year old Agfa slide!"

 

Loco is D 8101.

 

Bruce.

['CHARD]

Thank you very much indeed for that, Bruce! Lovely pic, triffids and difficult sun notwithstanding, I can hear the 20 idling and the whole scene is assailing my senses. In fairness the followers of this thread will never tire of shots like this. How frequent was the freight at this stage, weekly or did it run as required, in reality? I love the fact that it was reprieved a few times, but its viability must've been fatally wounded by road hauliers - even along the A7 it was hardly a long trip for a coal lorry.

 

Amazing that Carlisle turned out a steam loco for the trip as late as August - it must have seemed like a mirage! - I wonder if that occasion was marked in any way - don't suppose anyone knew it was the last until it was a fait accompli. I expect the sidings at Canonbie had fallen into disuse by this time.

[Guest Max Stafford]

Kingmoor still had 4MTs right up to the final day, 'Chard, so it was the 20s in fact that were the novelty traction on this run! These weren't on 12As books as far as I know, but got borrowed on an away turn from Polmadie!

 

Dave.

['CHARD]

Kingmoor still had 4MTs right up to the final day, 'Chard, so it was the 20s in fact that were the novelty traction on this run! These weren't on 12As books as far as I know, but got borrowed on an away turn from Polmadie!

 

Dave.

My mistake - for some reason I thought the final allocation was Oliver C, some Black 5s and a small number of spaceships. I'm thrilled that there were 4MTs left, peculiarly they are a personal favourite of mine B)

 

As 12A poked 20s up Langholm, laying over off 66A, it's surprising a Clayton never went there in similar circumstances. Perhaps one did, maybe even a Co-Bo, but right now I'm liking the austerity and plain vanilla of 4MTs and 20s. As a midlander, rural Borders branches aren't what I normally associate with EE Type 1s.

[Bernard Lamb]

In fairness the followers of this thread will never tire of shots like this. How frequent was the freight at this stage, weekly or did it run as required, in reality?

Hi Chard.

It's like a drug. Quite addictive. The caption on one of the Sept 67 photos states thrice weekly.

Bernard

['CHARD]

Hi Chard.

It's like a drug. Quite addictive. The caption on one of the Sept 67 photos states thrice weekly.

Bernard

That's not bad considering Langholm's population has always been around the 2,500 mark; the branch was a classic survivor, only outlived for local freight amongst its siblings by Kelso (pop 6,000), but outliving Selkirk (6,000) and Peebles (8,000).

[Guest Max Stafford]

The true indicator of a Borders branch's longevity was the presence of an industry requiring supply. In that context it's no surprise that Langholm was a late survivor and in fact, the town had a substantial mill in operation until very recently!

 

Dave.

[62440]

Maybe not the place for it, but seeing as it's 41 years to the day, you might be interested in this audio link (give it a while to load):

 

http://web.me.com/cairndhu/Cairndhu_Publications/5_12_69.html

 

Bruce

[Bernard Lamb]

The true indicator of a Borders branch's longevity was the presence of an industry requiring supply. In that context it's no surprise that Langholm was a late survivor and in fact, the town had a substantial mill in operation until very recently!

 

Dave.

 

 

Not to mention the gas works and more importantly the whisky.

Bernard

[62440]

Not to mention the gas works and more importantly the whisky.

Bernard

 

Unusually the gas works in Langholm wasn't rail-connected, nor had it a dedicated siding for its coal. The Tarras whisky was dealt with at Glen Tarras siding (Langholm Distillery being a 19th century closure casualty), but that distillery closed down in the 1920s after Messrs Seagram bought it. The siding lasted well into BR days and until recently the stumps of signal-wire posts could be seen.

 

What surprises me was the "large" passenger usage of the Langholm line compared to that of the Kelso line which closed on the same day.

 

Max is spot on when he mentions the mills - the factories certainly did use it to a large extent, but obviously when road transport expanded, the amount of goods sent by rail decreased.

 

And may I ask a completely "off the wall" question?

 

Travelling north on the A7 a couple of miles out of Longtown - just after the road runs parallel with the old railway and a few hundred yards before Scotch Dyke - on the west (left) side is around 200 yards of fence constructed out of uprights of narrow gauge track. Where has this come from? Logan Mack in his book "The Border Line" mentions a tramway built along the Border, I wonder if it could have come from there. The munitions factory at Gretna may also have been a possible source.

 

There's other sections of n.g. track around this part of Dumfriesshire used as a car park barrier and an upright for a set of sliding industrial gates.

 

Bruce

[Guest Max Stafford]

Local peat extraction industries made and continue to make use of narrow gauge rail systems. There were several such operations in the Longtown area. That may be where it came from.

 

Dave.

[62440]

Here's ten for New Year's Eve, focusing on steam and locations of interest:

<snip>

 

Never seen this before, the enigmatic Lochpark Engineers' Depot south of Hawick. Wonder what this brooding tenement looks out onto these days?

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=19716

 

<snip>

 

The poor inhabitants in the tenements were the recipients of the Clayton's first half dozen detonations. (See/hear http://web.mac.com/cairndhu/Cairndhu_Publications/5_12_69.html ) The recordings were made from a house on the hill-side in the background.

 

The tenements are now demolished and are a car park.

 

Bruce

[Bernard Lamb]

 

 

And may I ask a completely "off the wall" question?

 

Travelling north on the A7 a couple of miles out of Longtown - just after the road runs parallel with the old railway and a few hundred yards before Scotch Dyke - on the west (left) side is around 200 yards of fence constructed out of uprights of narrow gauge track. Where has this come from? Logan Mack in his book "The Border Line" mentions a tramway built along the Border, I wonder if it could have come from there. The munitions factory at Gretna may also have been a possible source.

 

There's other sections of n.g. track around this part of Dumfriesshire used as a car park barrier and an upright for a set of sliding industrial gates.

 

Bruce

 

There was also some narrow gauge track at Plashetts on the Border Counties Railway connecting one of the mines with the station. Probably under the water these days if any thing survives. The use of such connecting tracks does seem to be fairly common.

Bernard