Waverley Route new image links and discussion

['CHARD]

There's an incredible collection of B&W photos listed on eBay at the moment (no connection with seller), many of which feature 'Last train at' such-and-such (Leek, Lutterworth etc) shots, people and staff pics, plus snaps from passing trains, including this one, taken at Shankend, from 2M52 behind D5304 in the summer of '66:

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...#ht_1108wt_1165

 

I can imagine being there....

 

And elsewhere on RMWeb, photos of Woodhead have introduced me to this incredible shot taken on Shap of a northbound parcels: http://davesnorthwestrailwayarchive.fotopic.net/p58725959.html

 

Whilst not knowing exactly what service this is, it's the consist that's fascinating, and entirely plausible as one of the nocturnal Waverley services. Happily, there's not a standard CCT to be seen, as I sold all my Lima ones and haven't got round to their Margate replacements yet...

[Bernard Lamb]

Whilst not knowing exactly what service this is, it's the consist that's fascinating, and entirely plausible as one of the nocturnal Waverley services.

I like that.

Can any one give chapter and verse on the second vehicle in the consist with the clean roof and shiny patches? A couple of pictures away is a mineral train that shows a much wider range of wagon types than I would have thought would be the norm for 1968.

Bernard

Edited January 4, 2012 by 'CHARD

[Fat Controller]

I like that.

Can any one give chapter and verse on the second vehicle in the consist with the clean roof and shiny patches? A couple of pictures away is a mineral train that shows a much wider range of wagon types than I would have thought would be the norm for 1968.

Bernard

It's in the previous photo- a Stanier 50' BG. There also seems to be some sort of ex-LNER full brake (were there any shorter than the Gresley/Thompson ones?) The short Rail Blue vehicle in the middle of the train intrigues me- it looks as though it could be one of the former Insulfish vans which went over to parcels use (SPV), but I hadn't realised they were converted that early.

The mixture of wagon types in the mineral train (presuming you mean the one of Lucania) is a short rake of 13t fitted merchandise opens, presumably marshalled there to increase brake force.

['CHARD]

The freight wagon variety did surprise me, I have to say. I was reckoning on some parcels mongrels, but the opens in these and other similar shots are very interesting. The short in stature Rail Blue van - not a GW Fruit D by any chance?

[Guest Max Stafford]

That's what I think too, 'Chard!

 

Dave.

['CHARD]

I was biased slightly by wanting an excuse to run mine on the main line - it's my only remaining Wrenn product (and there's a nice new Dapol specimen in HobbyRail atm too, Retail Ed)

 

The other Dave's S&C collection has got several of The Waverley in its 1S49 days, including this shot of D320 doing the honours:

EDIT: new link required to replace Fotopic dead-end

my mistake, that's 1S64, here's D34 on 1S49, and I reckon my recently arrived D67 will become D34 in this condition

EDIT: new link required to replace Fotopic dead-end

 

EDIT: new link required to replace Fotopic dead-end

is D12 in 1967, and...

 

Proving the old adage that low-numbered split-box types were especially popular over the route, here's D12 in BFYE in 1968. Looks like another 45053 may be needed to join the raft of 46053s I just snapped up for the BFYE centre headcode variants:

EDIT: new link required to replace Fotopic dead-end

Edited January 4, 2012 by 'CHARD

[Pennine MC]

Morning each, just catching up on this, it's been too long. Not that I dont like it, oh no sir, not at all sir; but if I say I was supposed to be going to the gym an hour ago, that should indicate how much it distracts me

 

http://www.derbysulz...wavsteelerd.jpg

 

Pretty certain the van's an ex-LMS 42' bogie GUV, albeit from an earlier build than the Lima model. What's up with coach further along the train? It looks as though it's got a silver roof.

 

Were there any earlier builds, or is it just a case of how much of the beading had fallen off, as with some of the 50 footers?

 

The 'silver' roof is intriguing - you do see this from time to time on maroon stock (both Mk1 and pre-Nat), and also Derby Lightweights, if not other DMUs. I think somebody did once explain it, and I have the vague notion it's something to do with aluminium in the paint mix? (and posting something so preposterous is bound to bring forth a withering correction)

 

- but the train looks like sheeted anhydrate hoppers, or something else unfamiliar. Anyone else like to take a punt?*

 

Could be anhydrite, could be the 25T ore hoppers that were used in some sort of non-ore traffic (clinker? cant recall OTTOMH). Or maybe sheeted sand?

 

Anyway, a question for this most august thread:

 

Kelso, link below, that's surely late in the day for a wee concentration of grey unfitted vans?

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=27928

 

To add to what's already been said on this (all and any of which is a convincing explanation), they could just be sat in store awaiting disposal - you see a similar thing sometimes with ex-PO wooden minerals, after their theoretical 'last stand' of 1962/63.

 

I dont think it's been mentioned but the farthest van is one of the LMS all-steel ones. The solo brown one is clearly LNER in origin but could be either 9 or 10ft wb I suppose - it's difficult to see any more detail of its construction. If it has corrugated ends, it could be one of the earliest, non-ventilated examples of that construction, which were withdrawn generally before the vented ones. That hence adds to the 'storage' theory but belies the 9ft wb one...

 

The mixture of wagon types in the mineral train (presuming you mean the one of Lucania) is a short rake of 13t fitted merchandise opens, presumably marshalled there to increase brake force.

 

Added to which the first three vehicles look to be Minfits (well, they'd have to be). It crosses my mind that it's maybe not (or not entirely) a coal train - Highfits were sometimes used on minerals traffics - one of those in shot looks to have white staining - and that could well have led to them being mixed with 16 tonners. Hardendale lime, perhaps?

 

Also concur on the Fruit D, BTW FWIW

[Bernard Lamb]

It's in the previous photo- a Stanier 50' BG.

The mixture of wagon types in the mineral train (presuming you mean the one of Lucania) is a short rake of 13t fitted merchandise opens, presumably marshalled there to increase brake force.

Thanks for that. Presumable freshly repainted in blue.

Yep. That's the one. Was the fitted head only a requirement of diesel workings? Photos from a few years earlier with 9Fs and Black 5s don't normally depict this arrangement.

Bernard

[Pennine MC]

Was the fitted head only a requirement of diesel workings? Photos from a few years earlier with 9Fs and Black 5s don't normally depict this arrangement.

 

 

Seems reasonable Bernard, given that steam locos also had tenders to augment the brake force and the introduction of brake tenders in many areas to make up for the loss thereof. I cant speak for the northern WCML, but there's also some info in Hendry's first colour wagon book about the Redhill - St Helens sand traffic running with a short fitted head, and you do see similar things in other areas

 

Edit - only marginally OT, at the end of the footage that starts with the 2x25s on hoppers, there is a green/small yellow GRCW class 100 at Waverley, amongst the push/pulls and thus proving the livery was extant in 1971

[Jamie]

Have lost a post advising 'Chard that by following his youtube link he'll be able to find related videos (by the same youtube user) of Lady Victoria colliery, Newtongrange as discussed earlier on this thread.

['CHARD]

Have lost a post advising 'Chard that by following his youtube link he'll be able to find related videos (by the same youtube user) of Lady Victoria colliery, Newtongrange as discussed earlier on this thread.

 

Jings, crivvens, help m'Boab etc... It's the one of the hoppers I described (wrongly possibly) as anhydrite carriers, and referred to on this page by Pennine MC.

 

I think.

[Jamie]

Actually, I think I'm losing the plot.

 

All I can find tonight is a clip of the winding engine at Lady Vic.

 

Just ignore me, and watch the Barclays feeding blue 20s and GFYE 27s, and generally zipping around. Fantastic.

Does StuartP read this thread?

 

Edit: put up some notes on the NCB(ScR) industrial videos on my blog.

['CHARD]

At 4.17 - 4.22 there are two classic coal haulers - an Atkinson and the early style Volvo truck that I think of as synonymous with the Lothian coalfield.

 

Not sure if Stuart P has come over to the Dark Side at this time

[Pennine MC]

Not sure if Stuart P has come over to the Dark Side at this time

He'll be handing in his shortbread-shaped badge if he doesnt

[Fat Controller]

Seems reasonable Bernard, given that steam locos also had tenders to augment the brake force and the introduction of brake tenders in many areas to make up for the loss thereof. I cant speak for the northern WCML, but there's also some info in Hendry's first colour wagon book about the Redhill - St Helens sand traffic running with a short fitted head, and you do see similar things in other areas

 

Edit - only marginally OT, at the end of the footage that starts with the 2x25s on hoppers, there is a green/small yellow GRCW class 100 at Waverley, amongst the push/pulls and thus proving the livery was extant in 1971

My recollection is that, initially, loads for diesels were based on what they could pull, rather than what they could stop. Certainly, I remember at least three runaways on the Llanelli and Mynydd Mawr during the mid/late 1960s, when EE Type 3s were given loads of about twice that previously handled by a trio of 16xx Panniers.

The diesels had been specified on the premise that the vacuum-fitting programme of the Modernisation Plan would have been largely completed by the time they were in general use.

[Bernard Lamb]

 

The diesels had been specified on the premise that the vacuum-fitting programme of the Modernisation Plan would have been largely completed by the time they were in general use.

 

Which neatly brings us back to my comment about the unusual variety of wagons in the 1968 photo.

Despite a couple of comments we still don't know what the wagons actually contained. There has to be a specific reason for the make up of this train. I just get curious about odd things like that at times.

Bernard

['CHARD]

There's an image at the end of this link, and it's about as surprising as I've found to date.

 

http://www.the-grapes-hotel.com/

 

Not that I was scoping-out another Waverley recce for May, of course

[Pennine MC]

Which neatly brings us back to my comment about the unusual variety of wagons in the 1968 photo.

Despite a couple of comments we still don't know what the wagons actually contained. There has to be a specific reason for the make up of this train. I just get curious about odd things like that at times.

 

 

 

True enough Bernard, and I have to say I share your curiosity

 

 

['CHARD]

Timeline 1967, it's Perth ScR, and here's a Deltic which probably worked into Hawick at least looking like this:

http://dwb.railsteam.../p26735127.html

Well, I've checked it out (acknowledgements to the incredible Napier Chronicles http://www.napier-ch...o.uk/index.html for info below), and it seems my hunch was spot-on:

December 23rd '66

D9010 was released from Doncaster Works after General repair, still in TTG but with full yellow ends. "It is also possible that the new BR insignia 'Double-Arrows' were applied at this stage," D9010 was the only Deltic to have double-arrows in GFYE.

December 23rd '67

D9010 worked 04:00 Edinburgh - Hawick and 06:58 return. By the end of January '68 she was blue.

['CHARD]

Anyone able to better the vague details on this print presently for sale on a well known auction site?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130384500970&_trksid=p2759.l1259#ht_500wt_1182

 

It struck me that approaching Riddings may be a possibility, but I've no real clue; from the window shots are very challenging!

[Arpster]

I'm not sure it is Riddings. If so, the line over to the right would be the Langholm branch which would mean the good yard is on the left, yes? I'm pretty sure the yard was sunk down at a lower level than the mainline.

 

Arp

['CHARD]

I'm not sure it is Riddings. If so, the line over to the right would be the Langholm branch which would mean the good yard is on the left, yes? I'm pretty sure the yard was sunk down at a lower level than the mainline.

 

I tend to agree, the curvature may be about right, not sure about the signal or the relative track levels though. It would help if an i.d on the loco and railtour (which I reckon it is) clarified in which direction the service was travelling.

['CHARD]

Time for a shameless bounce for two reasons:

1) three posts above, we're seeking clarification on the content of a from-train shot currently for sale on ebay (no connection to seller).

2) here's another in the occasional series 'outrageous liveries worn by viable Waverley performers during 1968' - thanks to the redoubtable Mr Delamar for whiling away his well-spent Tuesday finding this link:

 

we had a good thread on old rmweb

 

http://www.rmweb.co....3999&hilit=D133

 

Im not sure if theres been one here since, I did try to find it as I wanted to add this shot Ive just come across too it

 

 

http://lickeyarchive.../p63710318.html

 

cheers

 

Mike

[Jamie]

Anyone able to better the vague details on this print presently for sale on a well known auction site?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130384500970&_trksid=p2759.l1259#ht_500wt_1182

 

It struck me that approaching Riddings may be a possibility, but I've no real clue; from the window shots are very challenging!

Very challenging indeed in that pic, one set of points and a signal to guess from

 

What else?

Well, it's exLNER stock, clearly.

The engine is either Stanier - Black 5, Jubilee maybe, or perhaps a Standard 5. Don't know how common these were, B1s, V2s and occasional Standard Pacifics being more my stereotypical Waverley steam perception. As an outsider of course. But it ain't any of them.

 

Not up on my LNER/NBR signals, can't reach Robotham's tome from where I'm sat. But might reach over later, for a look.

 

Mainline to the left, or straight (taller signal, distant) branch/secondary route to right.

Distant hasn't been cleared. Must be a clue in that distant, I'm sure.

[Colin Stewart]

At a guess, could the photo be leaving Carlisle heading up past Canal junction?

 

Colin