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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

No fun at all,

 

Nor is it fun to cook expensive chips (which has happened from time to time).

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Cooking chips is annoying but I’ve only ever cooked one expensive chip - a Zimo sound chip. And that was replaced for £25 (now £30) under the standard Zimo rules for replacing chips (even when it’s the purchaser’s fault) which I think is very reasonable. I normally put cheap £10 Chinese chips in kit built locos while I check them out. In fact I think the cost of replacing all the chips I have blown up over the years comes to less than one AM10 motor so not a big deal.

 

Coming back to my D13 fitted V2, it won’t be difficult to sort out. But it also needs repainting - it’s in a horrid lime green which you may remember. So it just hasn’t made it to the top of the todo list yet.

 

Andy

 

 

Edited by thegreenhowards
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5 hours ago, Chuffer Davies said:

Hi Baz,

you are absolutely correct in what you say but the point you are making is different to the one I and others were attempting to make.  The point you make relates to the annoying situation where a short across the track power causes the DCC command station to trip out dropping power to the entire layout.  Loco's that appear to be fine when running on DC may still have minor shorts that will trip the power on DCC.

 

The point I was making was that if the power from the DCC chip is routed on one side via otherwise isolated frames to the live brush in the motor, then any short allowing track power to connect with the frames will more than likely fry the chip.  Whilst I quite enjoy frying chips under normal circumstances in this particular circumstance it would be less than desirable and very costly. 

 

Regards,

Frank

Frank,

 

Strangely enough there are a number of dcc fitted locos with 'live' frames in use across a number of layouts. Any short should be detected and fettled long before it ends up causing a chip blow out. Worst one I had to sort out was a Ks loco which had the wiring set up to make the loco into a live framed vehicle. Once I got rid of the shorts between the wheels and the bodywork it was fine. After 5 years apparently it still works ok.

 

Not sure how the short you describe would occur.. but the trip should spot the short.

Baz

 

 

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6 hours ago, Barry O said:

If you don't use a short circuit protector circuit  in dcc it matters not if you use a motor with one brush insulated or one with both brushes insulated.. a short is a short.. and boy if only people would check their dc locos for shorts (most controllers seem immune to detecting minor shorts in dc nowadays!)  If you watch stock running in the darkness you will see sparks etc at once...its not just a dcc problem its a dc problem as well but 90% of the time no one notices it. 

 

Always check for shorts on your locomotives and stock.. you would be amazed what goes on in dc land...like coach wheels touching metal floors, loco wheels rubbing on frames and bodies, wagon wheels rubbing on whitemetal cast floors or axleboxes.

 

Baz

I totally agree with you about shorts on DC locos. But the truth is it doesn’t really matter if a DC loco has a brief short. It may stutter slightly, but it will carry on regardless and no damage is done. So DC users can get away with less exacting standards. 
 

On DCC it can be more serious. It normally just shuts the system down and no damage done. But sometimes it seems to fry the chip. I don’t really understand why this happens. I understand that if DCC power is connected to the motor terminals and back into the chip that way it will be terminal. But why a straightforward short sometimes has the same effect I’m not clear.

 

Andy

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Posted (edited)

Every time you get a short on dc you cause damage..to wheels, pick ups and once a pair of couplings. It is also possibly (I yave no ard evidence to prove it) causes the build up of dirt on wheels. I noticed that one loco I fitted a chip to had marks on the back of one driving wheel were a short had gone on for a fair length of time. The owner did say it occassionally had a problem going slowly. Large amounts of white metal carving later and.. bingo.. no more shorts.

 

Shorts in dc and dcc cause damage. The electronics in the dcc chip are a bit less durable than a lot of dc controllers.

 

Baz

Edited by Barry O
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Seeing as Wright Writes is LNER focused I thought I would post this here.  However if Andy wants to move it elsewhere feel free.

The Great Home Coming

 

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5 hours ago, Barry O said:

Frank,

 

Strangely enough there are a number of dcc fitted locos with 'live' frames in use across a number of layouts. Any short should be detected and fettled long before it ends up causing a chip blow out. Worst one I had to sort out was a Ks loco which had the wiring set up to make the loco into a live framed vehicle. Once I got rid of the shorts between the wheels and the bodywork it was fine. After 5 years apparently it still works ok.

 

Not sure how the short you describe would occur.. but the trip should spot the short.

Baz

 

 

Baz, my original suggestion was about using DCC with live-brush motors rather than live frames. Live frames are easy enough (but don't run two such locos nose-to-nose, as you know!) but live-brush motors less so.

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Quick general question:

 

I need some washout plugs that have the large square protruding head - does anyone know of any aftermarket suppliers of such items (4mm scale)?

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Cooking chips is annoying but I’ve only ever cooked one expensive chip - a Zimo sound chip. And that was replaced for £25 (now £30) under the standard Zimo rules for replacing chips (even when it’s the purchaser’s fault) which I think is very reasonable. I normally put cheap £10 Chinese chips in kit built locos while I check them out. In fact I think the cost of replacing all the chips I have blown up over the years comes to less than one AM10 motor so not a big deal.

 

Coming back to my D13 fitted V2, it won’t be difficult to sort out. But it also needs repainting - its in a horrid lime green which you may remember. So it just hasn’t made it to the top of the todo list yet.

 

Andy

 

 

Thanks Andy,

 

I'm still not convinced that a (permanently) live-frame motor (that is one brush not-insulated from the motor's frame) can be used in DCC. 

 

It's not a question of live frames - the A2/2, A2/3, B12, B17 and J3 I built for Gilbert Barnatt all have live frames, but the motors' brushes are all insulated. Down the years, he's never complained to me that the locos have shorted and cooked chips. 

 

I may be dim, but unless the frames are plastic, the bearings are plastic, the axles are plastic and the gears are plastic, I can't see how a D13 (or D11) can be used in a DCC-fitted chassis. 

 

Exposing my dimness, has anyone got evidence that (without the plastics) it can be done? All the evidence, both anecdotal and empirical, leads me to believe it can't. One needs four, totally-isolated-from-each-other leads for DCC-operation of a chassis. With a D13, there's only ever three. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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6 hours ago, Theakerr said:

Seeing as Wright Writes is LNER focused I thought I would post this here.  However if Andy wants to move it elsewhere feel free.

The Great Home Coming

 

I don't think it needs moving.

 

Thanks for posting it.

 

One thing of note in the lead image is the very different colours purporting to be BR green on 60008 and 60010. Which is right, I wonder? 

 

I know both were painted at Doncaster before being donated to the USA and Canada, so the paint would have been to BR's spec' then. However, clearly, one (or both) has/have been repainted down the subsequent decades. 

 

Why Australia or New Zealand (or India) were not presented with the appropriate A4s on their withdrawal, I don't know. In the case of '12 and '13, an original A4 corridor tender would then have been preserved.

 

Regards,

 

Tony

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18 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Andy,

 

I'm still not convinced that a (permanently) live-frame motor (that is one brush not-insulated from the motor's frame) can be used in DCC. 

 

It's not a question of live frames - the A2/2, A2/3, B12, B17 and J3 I built for Gilbert Barnatt all have live frames, but the motors' brushes are all insulated. Down the years, he's never complained to me that the locos have shorted and cooked chips. 

 

I may be dim, but unless the frames are plastic, the bearings are plastic, the axles are plastic and the gears are plastic, I can't see how a D13 (or D11) can be used in a DCC-fitted chassis. 

 

Exposing my dimness, has anyone got evidence that (without the plastics) it can be done? All the evidence, both anecdotal and empirical, leads me to believe it can't. One needs four, totally-isolated-from-each-other leads for DCC-operation of a chassis. With a D13, there's only ever three. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hi Tony,

it is possible without all the additional plastic isolation you suggest.  The key to this is building the chassis fully insulated from the track (as you often already do) by using insulated wheels all round and pickups to all wheels used to collect current.  The chassis is then electrically dead save for its connection to the earthed brush on the motor.  
 

You can now take one of the feed wires from the DCC chip and connect it to the chassis to put power into the earthed brush without causing any shorts.  The other feed wire from the chip goes to the other brush as normal.  
In the event that the chassis accidentally shorts to one or other of the rails (e.g. as a result of a derailment) Baz suggests some modern chips have built in protection to detect the end to end short and prevent it destroying the chip.  Unless you know for certain which DCC chips have such protection I suggest this strategy is too high risk to be a practical way forward and such motors should be avoided for DCC fitted locomotives.

 

Hope that makes sense.

Frank

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23 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Why Australia or New Zealand (or India) were not presented with the appropriate A4s on their withdrawal, I don't know. In the case of '12 and '13, an original A4 corridor tender would then have been preserved.

 

Kingfisher to the RSPB and Seagull to Cleethorpes council

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10 minutes ago, Bedders said:

 

Kingfisher to the RSPB and Seagull to Cleethorpes council

 

They've already got more than enough Seagulls in Cleethorpes. Just park your car for a while and it's obvious.

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45 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

One thing of note in the lead image is the very different colours purporting to be BR green on 60008 and 60010. Which is right, I wonder? 

 

I know both were painted at Doncaster before being donated to the USA and Canada, so the paint would have been to BR's spec' then. However, clearly, one (or both) has/have been repainted down the subsequent 

Morning Tony,

 

I believe that 60010 was in fact cosmetically restored at ... ahem ... Crewe works. It was 1966 and Doncaster was no longer dealing with steam by that stage.

 

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55 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Andy,

 

I'm still not convinced that a (permanently) live-frame motor (that is one brush not-insulated from the motor's frame) can be used in DCC. 

 

It's not a question of live frames - the A2/2, A2/3, B12, B17 and J3 I built for Gilbert Barnatt all have live frames, but the motors' brushes are all insulated. Down the years, he's never complained to me that the locos have shorted and cooked chips. 

 

I may be dim, but unless the frames are plastic, the bearings are plastic, the axles are plastic and the gears are plastic, I can't see how a D13 (or D11) can be used in a DCC-fitted chassis. 

 

Exposing my dimness, has anyone got evidence that (without the plastics) it can be done? All the evidence, both anecdotal and empirical, leads me to believe it can't. One needs four, totally-isolated-from-each-other leads for DCC-operation of a chassis. With a D13, there's only ever three. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

I agree. I’m not sure that you would need quite as much plastic as you suggest but the frames are enough to make it a non starter unless your objective is to prove it can be done out of sheer stubbornness. Swapping the motor over is by far the easiest solution. Does anyone know iof there is a direct swap for the D13?

 

Andy

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54 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

However, clearly, one (or both) has/have been repainted down the subsequent decades.

Tony,

 

60008 was repainted in the States. When it came over in 2012 the NRM found loads of tiny holes as it turned out the Americans had grit blasted the engine to remove the original paint. 60010 still had its original paint when it came here. I think I've read that it had only had one top coat so it lasted pretty well.

 

Regards,

 

Jamie

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10 minutes ago, JamieR4489 said:

Tony,

 

60008 was repainted in the States. When it came over in 2012 the NRM found loads of tiny holes as it turned out the Americans had grit blasted the engine to remove the original paint. 60010 still had its original paint when it came here. I think I've read that it had only had one top coat so it lasted pretty well.

 

Regards,

 

Jamie

And before Hornby get carried away thinking this is proof positive of the accuracy of their rendition of BR green I believe the job done by Crewe on 60010 was an economy job - undercoat and one topcoat only as the Canadians balked at the BR quote for a proper ‘exhibition finish’. The full story was in Steam Railway magazine at the time 60010 was temporarily repatriated. 

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47 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Morning Tony,

 

I believe that 60010 was in fact cosmetically restored at ... ahem ... Crewe works. It was 1966 and Doncaster was no longer dealing with steam by that stage.

 

You're right, Graham.

 

The memory fades; I saw 60010 at Crewe Works during its cosmetic restoration!

 

Many thanks,

 

Tony. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Chuffer Davies said:

Hi Tony,

it is possible without all the additional plastic isolation you suggest.  The key to this is building the chassis fully insulated from the track (as you often already do) by using insulated wheels all round and pickups to all wheels used to collect current.  The chassis is then electrically dead save for its connection to the earthed brush on the motor.  
 

You can now take one of the feed wires from the DCC chip and connect it to the chassis to put power into the earthed brush without causing any shorts.  The other feed wire from the chip goes to the other brush as normal.  
In the event that the chassis accidentally shorts to one or other of the rails (e.g. as a result of a derailment) Baz suggests some modern chips have built in protection to detect the end to end short and prevent it destroying the chip.  Unless you know for certain which DCC chips have such protection I suggest this strategy is too high risk to be a practical way forward and such motors should be avoided for DCC fitted locomotives.

 

Hope that makes sense.

Frank

Thanks Frank,

 

Though I'm still not convinced. By what you suggest, the whole chassis (bogies and ponies as well) is then electrically-live because the motor is fixed to it. Granted, it's insulated from the wheels, but the risks of a short circuit are multiplied enormously. Even if it were on a plastic saddle, the worm/gear would still ensure electrical conductivity between the motor frame and the chassis. 

 

My 'empirical' evidence is provided by DCC-specialists. When Gilbert Barnatt bought that V2 and asked about its being converted to DCC (still using the D13), Jeremy at Digi-Trains just said it was too difficult and, anyway, fraught with risks to the decoders.

 

Has anyone ever actually done such a conversion to DCC using a D13 (or D11) without insulating the 'live' brush on the motor?

 

If they have, they'll just prove my being dim. I imagine the queue to show will be rather long.......................

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited by Tony Wright
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3 hours ago, Chuffer Davies said:

Hi Tony,

it is possible without all the additional plastic isolation you suggest.  The key to this is building the chassis fully insulated from the track (as you often already do) by using insulated wheels all round and pickups to all wheels used to collect current.  The chassis is then electrically dead save for its connection to the earthed brush on the motor.  
 

You can now take one of the feed wires from the DCC chip and connect it to the chassis to put power into the earthed brush without causing any shorts.  The other feed wire from the chip goes to the other brush as normal.  
In the event that the chassis accidentally shorts to one or other of the rails (e.g. as a result of a derailment) Baz suggests some modern chips have built in protection to detect the end to end short and prevent it destroying the chip.  Unless you know for certain which DCC chips have such protection I suggest this strategy is too high risk to be a practical way forward and such motors should be avoided for DCC fitted locomotives.

 

Hope that makes sense.

Frank

That's exactly what I postulated a couple of days ago.

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2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Frank,

 

Though I'm still not convinced. By what you suggest, the whole chassis (bogies and ponies as well) is then electrically-live because the motor is fixed to it. Granted, it's insulated from the wheels, but the risks of a short circuit are multiplied enormously. Even if it were on a plastic saddle, the worm/gear would still ensure electrical conductivity between the motor frame and the chassis. 

 

My 'empirical' evidence is provided by DCC-specialists. When Gilbert Barnatt bought that V2 and asked about its being converted to DCC (still using the D13), Jeremy at Digi-Trains just said it was too difficult and, anyway, fraught with risks to the decoders.

 

Has anyone ever actually done such a conversion to DCC using a D13 (or D11) without insulating the 'live' brush on the motor?

 

If they have, they'll just prove my being dim. I imagine the queue to show will be rather long.......................

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

It can be done. The consensus here is that it shouldn't be done.

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4 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

I agree. I’m not sure that you would need quite as much plastic as you suggest but the frames are enough to make it a non starter unless your objective is to prove it can be done out of sheer stubbornness. Swapping the motor over is by far the easiest solution. Does anyone know iof there is a direct swap for the D13?

 

Andy

All that is required is an insulated bush for the uninsulated brush holder. A simple turning job; if I recall correctly the bush should be tapped 6BA.

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Most readers of these pages will be familiar with the use of Witte type German smoke deflectors on the A3 class.

They were more common on some classes of German locomotives but by no means  universal. This morning the local branch passenger train was hauled by a former Prussian T18, DR class 78 locomotive. I know not what happened to the usual DMU. Even more unusual was that the machine was fitted with these Witte deflectors.

Bernard

 

DSC_0128.JPG.b4c5e58b6d1f415bb8b82276e0daffd6.JPG

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1 hour ago, Pebbles said:

All that is required is an insulated bush for the uninsulated brush holder. A simple turning job; if I recall correctly the bush should be tapped 6BA.

I was tempted to ask how difficult it might be to insulate the brush to tackle the problem at source, but you've provided the answer, for those able to turn and tap...

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4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

The memory fades; I saw 60010 at Crewe Works during its cosmetic restoration!

 

Many thanks,

 

Tony. 

For all, little research trip using Flickr:

 

60008 after being repainted before being sent overseas: Flickr

 

60010: FlickrFlickrFlickr, and Flickr

 

*obviously these are Flickr links, so not my photos

 

5 hours ago, JamieR4489 said:

60008 was repainted in the States. When it came over in 2012 the NRM found loads of tiny holes as it turned out the Americans had grit blasted the engine to remove the original paint. 60010 still had its original paint when it came here. I think I've read that it had only had one top coat so it lasted pretty well.

People always assume that Green Bay didn't take care of 60008, but they at least repainted it to try and preserve it after being outside in USA weather conditions. That's about 30 years outdoors (some of that under the not-enclosed shed) of wear and tear. 

 

Look at this picture of Dwight, only being there for three years (with the start of the not-enclosed shed): Flickr and Flickr

 

For all, The Unlucky Tug (who is usually doing Thomas and Friends videos) has published a very nice documentary about the ill-fated USA tour of the Flying Scotsman. Youtube. 18:26 starts the Green Bay visit of Flying Scotsman, clearly showing how faded Dwight is just after 3 years in colour film. 

 

*obviously these are Flickr links, so not my photos

**no association with this channel

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