Dapol Streamlined Railcar

[Robert Shrives]

http://www.totally-transport.co.uk/gwr-aec-railcar.html

 

Hi gang link to page of gen and some pics of railcars..

Robert

[Miss Prism]

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/00001-eaw-dh-western-railcar.jpg

 

Kensington Olympia in 1954, with what is thought to be W13, showing the relationship between the side windows and end windows quite well. Note the flat-section bolection surrounds on the front driving windows, over which the upper lining does not encroach. The axis of the top of the surround on the front driving windows is straight. I agree with Rembrow's reservations on the Dapol shape - the passenger window at the end of the side is a trapezium, with a straight but sloping top, with its sliding vents (necessarily rectangular) sloped accordingly. The top of the driving compartment side window is also sloped but straight. There is an extra ribbing strip below the front windows to which the handrails are secured.

 

I think Dapol have some way to go yet in getting the shape right, but I'm not expecting any change because frankly I don't think Dapol see what is on the prototype.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

 

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/00001-eaw-dh-western-railcar.jpg

 

Kensington Olympia in 1954, with what is thought to be W13, showing the relationship between the side windows and end windows quite well. Note the flat-section bolection surrounds on the front driving windows, over which the upper lining does not encroach. The axis of the top of the surround on the front driving windows is straight. I agree with Rembrow's reservations on the Dapol shape - the passenger window at the end of the side is a trapezium, with a straight but sloping top, with its sliding vents (necessarily rectangular) sloped accordingly. The top of the driving compartment side window is also sloped but straight. There is an extra ribbing strip below the front windows to which the handrails are secured.

 

I think Dapol have some way to go yet in getting the shape right, but I'm not expecting any change because frankly I don't think Dapol see what is on the prototype.

 

I agree - I think it would be helpful if Dapol were to make clear exactly which batch they are attempting to portray because that is a long way from clear looking at the CAD.

[Miss Prism]

From the previous reports in rembrow's post #56, I assume this is Nos 5-9/13-16, diagram W. No interior moulding is shown on the current body-assembly CAD, so it's not clear whether Dapol intends to cater for the diagram X variant of the toilet-fitted 10/11/12. (Diagrams X and W are the same 'shape'.)

 

Btw, first and last shed allocations are given in:

http://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/ROD_Terminal%201_Rolling%20Stock_GWR%20railcar..html

 

Edited August 24, 2014 by Miss Prism

[rembrow]

If it helps the query raised by Miss Prism and Stationmaster, Dapol stated in the modelling press earlier this year, that they had changed their plans to model Railcars 2-4, using the preserved No 4 as prototype, which was not accessible for scanning, and were instead basing the model on numbers 5-16, which they said provided wider route use and 'allowed for further detailed variation'. I assumed from this that they intended to build in the main design variations for that series of Railcars, within the tooling.

[The Stationmaster]

If it helps the query raised by Miss Prism and Stationmaster, Dapol stated in the modelling press earlier this year, that they had changed their plans to model Railcars 2-4, using the preserved No 4 as prototype, which was not accessible for scanning, and were instead basing the model on numbers 5-16, which they said provided wider route use and 'allowed for further detailed variation'. I assumed from this that they intended to build in the main design variations for that series of Railcars, within the tooling.

That, and Miss Prism's post are as I also recall it.   However they seem to have finished up (thus far) with a CAD which has fallen somewhere between the two and isn't correct for either, hence my wondering quite where they are now heading.

[Karhedron]

Perhaps they are going for a "generic" offering like their O gauge milk tanker.

[The Stationmaster]

Perhaps they are going for a "generic" offering like their O gauge milk tanker.

A sort of reversion to the past - like the old Triang 6 coupled and 4-4-0 chassis, hmm 'traditional r-t-r 1960s style'.  In reality tho' it's more likely down to inadequate research and using whatever they happened to get out of any studies of No.4 at sSwindon but using different running numbers and a few other changes.  What I can't understand in this day & age is how things like this can go so wrong when there is so much decent quality source information available - including several books about the GWR cars plus a number of pics on the internet (and RMwewb of course).

[Miss Prism]

For diagram W, the first batch (5-7) was slightly different at the front end in having the front beading strip curving upward in an arc:

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsr1115.htm  (No 5)

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt345.htm  (No 6)

 

The second batch of diagram W (8, 9, 13-16), which is what Dapol is attempting (with the possible additional variant of the toilet-fitted diagram X 10-12), was of the later and more conventional style:

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt2367.htm  (W13)

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt2366.htm  (W13)

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt2365.htm  (W13)

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1294.htm  (W14)

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1809.htm  (W14)

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt2368.htm  (W14)

http://www.miac.org.uk/images/w14.jpg  (W14)  (good roof detail)

 

The windows and roof of the current Dapol effort are substantially incorrect.

 

 

Edit: addtional pic reference added of W14

Edited August 27, 2014 by Miss Prism

[Karhedron]

I hope the boys and girls at Dapol will check capacity in the shrink to fit machine !

Dapol have no plans that I know of for an N gauge version. However this might be of interest.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/89615-n-gauge-streamlined-great-western-railcar-kickstarter/

[The Stationmaster]

 

For diagram W, the first batch (5-7) was slightly different at the front end in having the front beading strip curving upward in an arc:

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsr1115.htm  (No 5)

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt345.htm  (No 6)

 

The second batch of diagram W (8, 9, 13-16), which is what Dapol is attempting (with the possible additional variant of the toilet-fitted diagram X 10-12), was of the later and more conventional style:

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt2367.htm  (W13)

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt2366.htm  (W13)

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt2365.htm  (W13)

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1294.htm  (W14)

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1809.htm  (W14)

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt2368.htm  (W14)

 

The windows and roof of the current Dapol effort are substantially incorrect.

 

Note also different side windows in the cab between the two diagrams.

[dibber25]

This should be make or break for Dapol as a scale model manufacturer rather than a toy train company. We've seen two O gauge wagons recently which have fallen short of expectation despite the publication of CADs on this forum many months before the models appeared. From the look of these railcar CADs they are not in a very advanced state and can be rectified. In light of the company's efforts with the OO Western and the fine-looking model that has been produced, the railcar needs to be of the same calibre.

CHRIS LEIGH

[jjb1970]

Indeed, the Western was an outstanding model that is not just a fine Dapol model, it is one of the finest OO diesel models period. The NBL Type 2's were also very well done. Some of their N Gauge models have been extremely good too but they do seem to be inconsistent at times and veer between the very good and models that leave room for improvement.

[Robert Shrives]

I think the CADs show the problem of designers not from this country knowing every fiddly detail and working off one scheme (2-4) and then getting changed to the later batch. years ago Dave showed a CAD where his comments had been taken too literally with a 22 top to mid body and a hymek below after early discussion of chassis being based around the Heljan style of chassis...

The CAD discussion on here has been talked about and futher work will I am sure follow .

 

Viz N version seen kickstarter - put in for 3 but it does seem a waste of engineering time as Dapol can redesign its 4 or 7mm version to 2mm/N given Swindon declined Dave`s early attempt to scan no4 while he was at Dapol not sure how it is now possible but the Judge books and others do give good drawings it would be possible.  I note the Farish version slated for a new DCC friendly chassis so a razor car possible that will run up to modern standards - I guess it might get a bit of internal detail if modern half chassis used. Chassis would be good in making a twin set ...

 

Hopefully the interlectual mauling  over for a bit and I wait to see revised CADs in the future!

Robert   

[Karhedron]

Hi Robert, thanks for supporting the N gauge Kickstarter. I would have been happy to wait for a Dapol version in N gauge but as far as I know, Dapol have no plans to produce one in the foreseeable future (would be happy to be proved wrong).

[adrianbs]

Hi All   With a bit of luck I might get this one post in before I get banished to the gulags again !!    As far as I can see the current CADs are total rubbish, however as this is the standard set recently on the O gauge wagons I would be disinclined to believe that there is any real hope of improvement.   I do have some knowledge on this subject just in case those who enjoy discrediting anything I post try yet again.  I did take over the Anbrico Railcar and although 40 years old, at least, is way ahead of the Dapol model but was,nevertheless, not up to the standard I set for my new products.  The patterns have been largely rebuilt including removeable side panels and new super detailed bogie sides.  The original kit had no provision for the later condition with the panels removed and as they lasted much longer in the later style it seemed advisable to offer both versions.  It is basically pointless as well as impossible to fit bogie sides on the original version as the side panels actually move on sharp curves to accomodate bogie swing as far as I can see.  My colleague did most of the pattern work and this also included the new sides for the Parcels Car version which had never been offered by Anbrico.

.

   A new motor bogie design was produced based on our OO tram chassis design but we then heard that Dapol were working on a GWR Railcar so the work was halted till we knew which.   It was restarted when No 4 was chosen but then stopped when the same model as ours was chosen.  I can understand why Dapol are having difficulty although not why they seem to have such an inaccurate set of CADs. There are no really accurate official full size drawings available   neither in the published books or in magazines as far as I could find..  W4 in Swindon does exist and although not accessible for laser scanning, any competent designer would have more luck with that railcar than the later batch as there are none extant at all.  Fortunately there is a good drawing of the bogie but of course this and the body drawings are useless if laser scanning is required to enable the tooling to be produced accurately.  The front end shape cannot be accurately calculated just from the drawings especailly as the drawings themselves are rather suspect.  I believe the front end panels are all basically made using single curvature sheet metal  although the front of the roof is double curvature using canvas covered wood just like the Beaver Tails on the LNER.  It might be possible with a competent solid modelling programmer to produce a 3D front end shape which matches the photos and the Anbrico model looked pretty good as it was,.just made by hand from flat brass sheet by Tony Colbeck.the original ANBRICO  

 

     The front roof shape is more of a problem being double curvature with basically no dimensional details of the radii.being available. The timbers would have been curved and trimmed to match the gutter lines and centre roof profile, then shaved to give a smooth surface for the canvas. No doubt the roofs were shaped to match templates but would have varied slightly. Even the precise positioning of the roof vents is not clear, especially on the Parcels Car.  I assume this will follow, if the sales of the first model are adequate although that will depend on the accuracy.  Dibber25s comments on the recent O gauge wagons,( I assume he refers to the brake van and milk tank,) give the impression that the other 4 groups of O gauge wagons have been acceptable. In fact two are basically freelance and generic, one is seriously innaccurate whilst the other has only about 35 faults.  At the moment some of us are trying to salvage the 7mm Terrier from a similar fate but Dapol are unwilling to discuss any of the points raised.so unless there is going to be some sort of Damascene revelation,  I fear the Railcar may follow suit.   At the moment it seems more effort is being employed trying to silence critics than producing accurate models.

 

    I wish you luck in your efforts but on past performance you are going to have your work cut out getting what you want.      Regards all,  adrianbs

Edited September 12, 2014 by adrianbs

[The Stationmaster]

If the Dapol railcar goes the way of the CADs shown on here I will very definitely not be buying one.  So at that point if Mr abs has been able to make something of a rework of the model he took over from Anbrico and if the result is as good as his 4mm scale wagon kits of 'quite a long time ago' then I think i will know which way I could go when I finally decide I might need the railcar and i shall be cranking the good old Oryx and out with the imitation Eames flux and trusting to luck with the painting

[dibber25]

Hi All   With a bit of luck I might get this one post in before I get banished to the gulags again !!    As far as I can see the current CADs are total rubbish, however as this is the standard set recently on the O gauge wagons I would be disinclined to believe that there is any real hope of improvement.   I do have some knowledge on this subject just in case those who enjoy discrediting anything I post try yet again.  I did take over the Anbrico Railcar and although 40 years old, at least, is way ahead of the Dapol model but was,nevertheless, not up to the standard I set for my new products.  The patterns have been largely rebuilt including removeable side panels and new super detailed bogie sides.  The original kit had no provision for the later condition with the panels removed and as they lasted much longer in the later style it seemed advisable to offer both versions.  It is basically pointless as well as impossible to fit bogie sides on the original version as the side panels actually move on sharp curves to accomodate bogie swing as far as I can see.  My colleague did most of the pattern work and this also included the new sides for the Parcels Car version which had never been offered by Anbrico.

.

   A new motor bogie design was produced based on our OO tram chassis design but we then heard that Dapol were working on a GWR Railcar so the work was halted till we knew which.   It was restarted when No 4 was chosen but then stopped when the same model as ours was chosen.  I can understand why Dapol are having difficulty although not why they seem to have such an inaccurate set of CADs. There are no really accurate official full size drawings available   neither in the published books or in magazines as far as I could find..  W4 in Swindon does exist and although not accessible for laser scanning, any competent designer would have more luck with that railcar than the later batch as there are none extant at all.  Fortunately there is a good drawing of the bogie but of course this and the body drawings are useless if laser scanning is required to enable the tooling to be produced accurately.  The front end shape cannot be accurately calculated just from the drawings especailly as the drawings themselves are rather suspect.  I believe the front end panels are all basically made using single curvature sheet metal  although the front of the roof is double curvature using canvas covered wood just like the Beaver Tails on the LNER.  It might be possible with a competent solid modelling programmer to produce a 3D front end shape which matches the photos and the Anbrico model looked pretty good as it was,.just made by hand from flat brass sheet by Tony Colbeck.the original ANBRICO  

 

     The front roof shape is more of a problem being double curvature with basically no dimensional details of the radii.being available. The timbers would have been curved and trimmed to match the gutter lines and centre roof profile, then shaved to give a smooth surface for the canvas. No doubt the roofs were shaped to match templates but would have varied slightly. Even the precise positioning of the roof vents is not clear, especially on the Parcels Car.  I assume this will follow, if the sales of the first model are adequate although that will depend on the accuracy.  Dibber25s comments on the recent O gauge wagons,( I assume he refers to the brake van and milk tank,) give the impression that the other 4 groups of O gauge wagons have been acceptable. In fact two are basically freelance and generic, one is seriously innaccurate whilst the other has only about 35 faults.  At the moment some of us are trying to salvage the 7mm Terrier from a similar fate but Dapol are unwilling to discuss any of the points raised.so unless there is going to be some sort of Damascene revelation,  I fear the Railcar may follow suit.   At the moment it seems more effort is being employed trying to silence critics than producing accurate models.

 

    I wish you luck in your efforts but on past performance you are going to have your work cut out getting what you want.      Regards all,  adrianbs

Did I give that impression, Adrian? I haven't seen 4 other groups of wagons so I certainly didn't intend to give that impression. Apart from the brake van, and the milk tank, I've see a couple of open wagons, that's all. The question of 'OK' is a matter of interpretation - OK is OK if you just want a wagon that looks like a wagon. If you want something that is accurate in such matters as rivet detail and brake rigging layout then clearly they are not 'OK'. However, it has to be accepted that there are are a substantial number of modellers who are not bothered by that level of detail and for them, these wagons will be OK.

CHRIS LEIGH

[Coach bogie]

There is a brass alternative for cars 5-16 from Worsley Works that I am giving serious consideration to, having read this thread.

 

http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/4mm/4mm_GWR.htm

 

Mike Wiltshire

[pete_mcfarlane]

There is a brass alternative for cars 5-16 from Worsley Works that I am giving serious consideration to, having read this thread.

 

http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/4mm/4mm_GWR.htm

 

Mike Wiltshire

I'm always impressed by Worsley's Works honesty regarding their kits:

 

 

Etched sides with side skirts, bulkheads, floor and most of the ends.

Sorry the really bent bits beat us

[Robert Shrives]

Hi If you look in the 2mmfs section you will find a fantastic rendition of the Worsley works GWR car , details achieved beggars belief and looks and runs really well. But it is clear a real ###### to build from the thread!

 

Sadly I think the problem at Dapol is that the developers are working with some errored base work and are playing catch up with Chinese CAD staff, the class 33 tooling went into bin and a much better result is the result ! having seen CAD pictures in Collectors mag that arrived yesterday.  The Brake, tankers and wagons were first efforts in O for Dapol and look like were toofar down the expensive production process to bin. At least it gives you the chance to modify and do some modelling using them as a basis, sadly some of the advice given to Dave over standards acceptable might have been taken to literally. It is a learning curve game and at least at the price it is a value range starter wagon or siding filler/ train expander!  

 

The railcar CADs perhaps should not have been released but I think comments were sought - well you gave them on this thread and perhaps that will be the last before production. Having had a little input into the TGS I have found Dapol staff really keen to make the best within the small budget that N models make - proving the case for a new roof took a while so changes and improvements can be made and hopefully Railcar will devleop and a N version will make it into daylight. It will be fun to see as like buses "none" for years and it looks like a flood of  vehicles on the way. - In N a newly chassied Razor car slated for 2015 release will please most users, nothing on body improvements after last tweak..

heres hoping for models from CADs that are right

Robert

Edited September 19, 2014 by Mod4
Edit to remove factually incorrect references to individuals

[Robert Shrives]

Hi Gang.

 

Well it Proves Dave Jones is up and hard at work! He has asked be to correct my previous post !  

"Stating thay the O gauge models in the current Dapol range were all my work." - This is incorrect. 

 

Apologies to Dave in FULL and sorry to misled anybody.

 

Regards and humbled

Robert

[adrianbs]

Hi all.  Whilst DJM might disagree with comments in post 101 it has still not been revealed why so many errors occurred with all of the 7mm models and with others in different scales.  Even when there was apparently plenty of time to alter the designs after questions had been posed, no significant changes appear to have resulted.  I find it difficult to understand where Dapol have sourced their information in many cases and if the sources were reliable why the resultant product has been so poor .  If these models were already finalised at the point where the first CADs were shown, modeller participation was clearly not feasible but if these were, as suggested, preliminary designs, why were they so wrong and, more importantly, why were they almost never changed.  There seems to be a very significant advertising budget and perhaps if some of that had been diverted to research and design, models would have been so good that there would have been less need to advertise.
 
    My business would have foundered within months if I had made products relatively this poor, even 30 or 40 years ago.   I was, however, fortunate in being able to call upon the help of acknowledged (and less well known) enthusiasts to assist me.  I did not sit in an ivory tower designing models from my imagination and a couple of poor photos which is the way some Dapol  models seem to have evolved.  If the prototype existed I used a tape measure and photos  to explore the less obvious details. My budget was miniscule but that was adequate to produce most items, surely Dapol are not that cash strapped that such small amounts are unaffordable.  Standards have significantly improved in the last 40 years in the RTR field but many have fallen by the wayside, often in a fairly dramatic way.  Going back to the standards of the 70s and 80s, comparable to those of the firms that no longer exist, seems very likely to end in tears.  
 
    Many of the modellers I consulted years ago are no longer with us but some still are, just, and many more have stepped into their boots and published authoritative books on innumerable subjects which one never dreamed of 40 years ago.  Not all published information is accurate but it can soon be checked against photos.   Google, whilst not comprehensive, did not even exist when I started.  Dapol seem unwilling to take advantage of these resources and the results clearly show this. They are not alone by any means but seem to be lagging well behind in this particular race to survive and we all know who takes the hindmost.  
 
        Regards adrianbs

[Mod4]

Please can we ensure that posts on this thread remain on topic rather than go over older and repetitive ground regarding other Dapol products that have been extensively covered elsewhere

[KGV]

I was perusing the Dapol site and noticed that they have more details of their models of the railcar here, all scheduled for 3rd Quarter 2015.

 

4D-011-000 Streamlined  Railcar No 7 Choocolate & Cream GWR Monogram 

4D-011-001 Streamlined Railcar No 12 Choocolate & Cream GWR Monogram 

4D-011-002 Streamlined Railcar BR Lined Choocolate & Cream W10 

4D-011-003 Streamlined Railcar BR Lined Carmine & Cream W14 

 

Please note their unique spelling of Chocolate!  Maybe it's a special shade for choo-choo's?