Dapol Class 121 and 122 in OO gauge

[dibber25]

I'm sure they were concerned with closures, simply because that was what their managers were under pressure to achieve. The Beeching era is slightly before my time - I joined in 1966 from skool - but barmy edicts from the civil servants were still being issued by the time I was in a position to know about them. As late as the late '80s, with Sectors in full swing, some bozo at Marsham St dreamed up a new virility symbol, by issuing a requirement for the Board to single a target number of route miles per year, and identified some routes he thought were ripe for it. These included Leatherhead - Effingham Junction, a few miles that saw few services per hour, so seemed to fit his model. Unfortunately, had it gone ahead, the timing  and platforming of the entire suburban side at Waterloo would have had to revolve around the availability of paths over that single line.

 

People think the nationalised railway was some sort of ideal, but in reality the amateurs in the Department were forever coming up with new ideas to save money. As a colleague once put it - the only good thing about dealing with the civil servants was that it was marginally better than dealing with MPs. 

Ken Painter, the guy who brought Class 59s to Foster Yeoman, told me that when he worked for BR there was a drive to cut ALL freight from Somerset. He said he watched people build their careers on doing just that. He put a stop to it when he persuaded Foster Yeoman to increase their movement of stone by rail. (CJL)

[keefer]

i'm afraid i can't quote a direct source but i've definitely read that more route mileage was lost pre-Beeching than due to the good Doctor himself?

Whether it was because his closures were more borderline or controversial than previously, i don't know

[The Johnster]

i'm afraid i can't quote a direct source but i've definitely read that more route mileage was lost pre-Beeching than due to the good Doctor himself?

Whether it was because his closures were more borderline or controversial than previously, i don't know

 

Route mileage probably, but Beeching was directly responsible for hundreds of station and goods yard closures on lines that remained open, and loss of passenger services on lines that became freight only, which had less effect on overall route mileage.

[The Johnster]

I'm sure they were concerned with closures, simply because that was what their managers were under pressure to achieve. The Beeching era is slightly before my time - I joined in 1966 from skool - but barmy edicts from the civil servants were still being issued by the time I was in a position to know about them. As late as the late '80s, with Sectors in full swing, some bozo at Marsham St dreamed up a new virility symbol, by issuing a requirement for the Board to single a target number of route miles per year, and identified some routes he thought were ripe for it. These included Leatherhead - Effingham Junction, a few miles that saw few services per hour, so seemed to fit his model. Unfortunately, had it gone ahead, the timing  and platforming of the entire suburban side at Waterloo would have had to revolve around the availability of paths over that single line.

 

People think the nationalised railway was some sort of ideal, but in reality the amateurs in the Department were forever coming up with new ideas to save money. As a colleague once put it - the only good thing about dealing with the civil servants was that it was marginally better than dealing with MPs.

 

I'd suggest that this didn't apply solely to the Western region. One of the quickest ways to close a branch in the "Beeching" era was to claim that the junction with the main line required expensive repairs or even replacement. I heard multiple stories of this happening when I worked on the Eastern, although admittedly these (mostly*) took place years before I started. It seems that too many rail staff of this era were too concerned with seeing how much track they could get closed, rather than keeping lines open.

 

*There were a couple of notable examples which were more recent than Beeching. I'll leave you to guess at which.

 

I'd suggest that this didn't apply solely to the Western region. One of the quickest ways to close a branch in the "Beeching" era was to claim that the junction with the main line required expensive repairs or even replacement. I heard multiple stories of this happening when I worked on the Eastern, although admittedly these (mostly*) took place years before I started. It seems that too many rail staff of this era were too concerned with seeing how much track they could get closed, rather than keeping lines open.

 

*There were a couple of notable examples which were more recent than Beeching. I'll leave you to guess at which.

The WR's method was to spend money on expensive and needless facilities for branches they wanted to close; for instance a new station building was provided in 1964 at Clarence Road, Cardiff, less than a year before passenger services were withdrawn from this busy dockland terminus, which remained open for freight for another 4 years, so that the cost of it could be included in the overall cost of running the branch that year, proving it was prohibitively expensive to keep operating it.  Portishead suffered a similar fate, as did Cadoxton as the terminus of the Penarth-Swanbridge-Cadoxton route.  Other examples include re-signalling, trackliaying to main line standards with concrete sleepers and flat bottomed rail, and replacing bridges.  It put the protesters on the back foot as well, catching them unawares when a branch that had clearly just been heavily invested in and was thus assumed to have a secure future was closed as quickly as possible after the big spend.  It wasn't so much about saving money; as this shows, it was about proving that money was being wasted by actually wasting in, a highly mendacious activity.  The railway's management actually wanted to close the railway; that was what they were being paid to do, and rewarded for doing.  It was a scandal whose proportions were hidden then and buried now; the guilty have taken their loot and run long ago and the mess is still being cleared up.  Symbolic was Cardiff's Brunel House, a massive office block ostensibly to run a railway a fraction of the size and with a fraction of the traffic of the one that had been managed perfectly well out of a few office rooms at Queen Street Station a few years before and actually a property speculation; as I've said, property dealing was the railway's real business in the 60s and early 70s.  it was, and is, an ugly building that represents an ugly reality.

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by The Johnster

[Guest Midland Mole @ Footplate]

All 5 of the new Class 122 models are now in stock with us.

Alex @ Footplate

[aforsyth]

Returning a little closer to the original topic, I've been keen for some time to pick up a 'proper' 121 for my eventual 80s Cornish layout. However, I've learned through the helpful posts here that whereas 121s were common on branches such as Liskeard to Looe (I remember them), it was the 122s that dominated the St.Ives branch? Was this the exception, or in the 70s/80s were both types common across Cornwall?

 

Thanks,

Alan

[dibber25]

Returning a little closer to the original topic, I've been keen for some time to pick up a 'proper' 121 for my eventual 80s Cornish layout. However, I've learned through the helpful posts here that whereas 121s were common on branches such as Liskeard to Looe (I remember them), it was the 122s that dominated the St.Ives branch? Was this the exception, or in the 70s/80s were both types common across Cornwall?

 

Thanks,

Alan

Blake Paterson, photographer, photographed a 121 on the Wadebridge-Bodmin in May 1966 although he didn't seem to record its number. I'd say that 122s were most common in the far west in the early 1960s but once 'London area' branches - Staines West, Uxbridge, Abingdon, DN&S had closed, 121s were available to be transferred further afield. The WR seemed to prefer the Pressed Steel cars and, it seems, moved the Gloucesters on whenever they could, replacing them with Pressed Steels in the London area in 1960 and then bouncing them to Scotland from around 1966/7 and replacing them with 121s. By the 1970s/80s the 122s were going out of favour and the Scr was using some as parcels cars while others were going into departmental service as route-learners etc. I'd go with a 121 for your 1980s Cornish layout. In Regional Railways days, RR-supremo, Gordon Pettit told me he wanted to rebuild some 121s to remove the brake van, increase the seating and have the cab-view forward at both ends, for the St.Ives and Looe branches. Pity it never came to anything. (CJL)

[aforsyth]

< ... > I'd go with a 121 for your 1980s Cornish layout. In Regional Railways days, RR-supremo, Gordon Pettit told me he wanted to rebuild some 121s to remove the brake van, increase the seating and have the cab-view forward at both ends, for the St.Ives and Looe branches. Pity it never came to anything. (CJL)

 

Sounds like a great 'what if' project for a more capable modeller (not me!).

Thanks Chris - really appreciate your brief historical overview. That's helped me not get distracted, although admittedly I had been considering a 60s side project too...! :->

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Everyone,

   I've already got various models of Class 121 and 122, but I was curious to see how good the new offering from Dapol was? I bought the early green whiskers version, first overall impression was good, good shape and profile, but I have reservations about the shade of green and rather thick lining. Other livery errors are the height of the crests, the incorrect position of the running number on one side, and the style of the numbers. The model runs like a dream, the design of the mechanism is excellent, the underframe detail is impressive. However there are a few more negative points, the roof vents seem rather under-nourished, the understandably shallow interior floor (hiding the motor and drive shafts) is finished in a rather sickly cream colour, which does nothing to hide the lack of depth, and some underframe parts are highlighted in a rather modern period H&S colour coded scheme, for early liveries things were more bland, fewer components were picked out over the overall black. 

    Now i'm just an old fussy pants, don't be put off by my criticisms, they are border-line, i'm generally happy with the product, and i'm sure it will be a popular seller. Oh yes, one other little petty detail, the cab handrails modelled are the later arrangement, roughly starting with the BR blue livery, prior to this the handrail was longer, it was in fact doubling up as the overflow pipe for the guttering, but that's asking a bit too much of the manufacturer.

    It's all too easy to criticise, and actions speak louder than words, here are a few mods that i've applied to my one already. I have painted the interior floor matt black and added grey to the seat tops to represent the leather/leatherette band, removed the offending running number, and dulled down the underframe. I'm tempted to repaint the body, but i'll give it more thought.

                                                      Cheers, Brian.

 

[cctransuk]

Hi Everyone,

   I've already got various models of Class 121 and 122, but I was curious to see how good the new offering from Dapol was? I bought the early green whiskers version, first overall impression was good, good shape and profile, but I have reservations about the shade of green and rather thick lining. Other livery errors are the height of the crests, the incorrect position of the running number on one side, and the style of the numbers. The model runs like a dream, the design of the mechanism is excellent, the underframe detail is impressive. However there are a few more negative points, the roof vents seem rather under-nourished, the understandably shallow interior floor (hiding the motor and drive shafts) is finished in a rather sickly cream colour, which does nothing to hide the lack of depth, and some underframe parts are highlighted in a rather modern period H&S colour coded scheme, for early liveries things were more bland, fewer components were picked out over the overall black. 

    Now i'm just an old fussy pants, don't be put off by my criticisms, they are border-line, i'm generally happy with the product, and i'm sure it will be a popular seller. Oh yes, one other little petty detail, the cab handrails modelled are the later arrangement, roughly starting with the BR blue livery, prior to this the handrail was longer, it was in fact doubling up as the overflow pipe for the guttering, but that's asking a bit too much of the manufacturer.

    It's all too easy to criticise, and actions speak louder than words, here are a few mods that i've applied to my one already. I have painted the interior floor matt black and added grey to the seat tops to represent the leather/leatherette band, removed the offending running number, and dulled down the underframe. I'm tempted to repaint the body, but i'll give it more thought.

                                                      Cheers, Brian.

 

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Mine should arrive tomorrow, and I've a feeling that a complete repaint, plus the minor corrections that you've outlined, will be on the cards !

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[The Johnster]

Difficult to be definitive, as your photos were taken with a flashgun (please don't take this as a criticism) and it looks to me very like the earlier 'electric green' (not malachite) that was used on early dmus.  A later, darker, 'wine bottle' green was used from about 1962 with the lining, and both liveries appeared with whiskers and small warning panels; the livery situation was a bit fluid in those days.  But in any case you need to be satisfied with the livery, and if that takes a repaint then that is what you will need to do!  Personally, I'd be happy with it as it is for a recently introduced vehicle in the very early 60s and am more worried about the absence of the number on the rh end of the brake van side.

[dibber25]

I assisted Joel and Andy from Dapol with the choice of green for this model. The original Dapol samples carried the dark green, which is correct for the Class 121 and would also be correct for at least some Class 122 cars with the small yellow panel but definitely not for the 'as delivered' livery which was the much lighter green. This colour faded badly, so memories and photographs of in-service cars will be much lighter than the ex-works shade. We used my Lima conversion, painted with Railmatch early DMU green as our guide to the colour for W55000. There is not an infinite choice - we had three books of colour swatches which related to the colours available to the manufacturer. We selected the one that was closest to the Railmatch shade. It's also a close match to the South Devon Railway's restored W55000. However, as I've said many times before, colour perception is a personal thing and no two people will see a shade in exactly the same way. There's always a substantial degree of interpretation as the full-size shades will always look too dark on a small scale model. The number has been printed to the wrong end on one side. (CJL)

[Brian Kirby]

Nice try The Johnster, but no flash gun or flash option was used in my photos above, it was just a softly illuminated scene. The story of DMU liveries is far more complicated than you say. It started with 1954 Derby Lightweights in Steam Loco Green (Brunswick), the Derby high density sets (116) appeared in 1957 in a pale malachite/emu green, two years later the same units were being repainted in a darker shade known as "Mid-Brunswick Green"(?), meanwhile Gloucester Cross-Country sets were appearing in a much lighter shade than their Swindon counterparts. Finally a new shade was introduced for late builds and repaints, being a more oily olive green which was supposedly more hard wearing. With so many different builders, there will be even more variations for new stock than this, but then the other complication is weathering. In most cases, greens will age and take on a bluey hue, this is caused by the sun burning off the yellow pigment in the paint, we all know from school, that blue plus yellow, makes green.

      I suggest Chris looks at the colour photograph in "Heyday Of The DMUs" (Ian Allan) on page 40, which shows a newly delivered (from Gloucester RCW) W55000 at Swindon in May 1958, it's very dark. Have a look too at page 60, which shows the first two shades used on Class 116. I shall upload more of my images tomorrow.

                                                           Cheers, Brian.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Brian Kirby

[YesTor]

We used my Lima conversion, painted with Railmatch early DMU green as our guide to the colour for W55000. There is not an infinite choice - we had three books of colour swatches which related to the colours available to the manufacturer.  (CJL)

 

Now, please shoot me down in flames should I be barking up the wrong tree... but surely if there are what are perceived to be correct shades commercially available via Railmatch and Precision Paints, then why-oh-why do Dapol seemingly try and match what is known to be correct with something 'vaguely similar' that they happen to have on the shelf?  Would it not be an obvious move to source paint via suppliers such as those mentioned?  After all, Precision apparently manufactured paints for British Rail back in the 70s/80s, and I believe continue to do so for some of the preservation groups, so if they were good enough for British Rail then surely they can be good enough for Dapol?  And maybe if they did then Dapol would stand half a chance of actually getting some of these colours - I'm thinking the awful 'purple' Rail Blue (a la Dapol 73) and Lemon Warning Yellow (again Class 73)? 

Edited July 14, 2017 by YesTor

[BRIDGEMAN]

Has anybody heard the sound version of the 122 available from Hattons. Is it worth the £260 price tag?

[chrisf]

      I suggest Chris looks at the colour photograph in "Heyday Of The DMUs" (Ian Allan) on page 40, which shows a newly delivered (from Gloucester RCW) W55000 at Swindon in May 1958, it's very dark. Have a look too at page 60, which shows the first two shades used on Class 116. I shall upload more of my images tomorrow.

                                                           Cheers, Brian.

 

I know those pics.  There is something about the photographic/colour reproduction process which does the shade of almost-but-not-quite-malachite used on dmus built between 1956 and 1959 no favours.  Even Colour-Rail slides should not be treated as gospel.

 

Chris

[dibber25]

Now, please shoot me down in flames should I be barking up the wrong tree... but surely if there are what are perceived to be correct shades commercially available via Railmatch and Precision Paints, then why-oh-why do Dapol seemingly try and match what is known to be correct with something 'vaguely similar' that they happen to have on the shelf?  Would it not be an obvious move to source paint via suppliers such as those mentioned?  After all, Precision apparently manufactured paints for British Rail back in the 70s/80s, and I believe continue to do so for some of the preservation groups, so if they were good enough for British Rail then surely they can be good enough for Dapol?  And maybe if they did then Dapol would stand half a chance of actually getting some of these colours - I'm thinking the awful 'purple' Rail Blue (a la Dapol 73) and Lemon Warning Yellow (again Class 73)? 

I suspect that the types and brands of paint available in China are very different from those supplied by two specialist model railway colour ranges in the UK. Anyway, as I say again, colour perceptions vary and there have certainly been doubts about some shades in even those two standard ranges. This is not necessarily because they are 'wrong' it's because people's colour perceptions differ and because colours have to be adjusted to suit small scale models. It would be easy if we could just take the Williamsons range that BR used and apply that but actual colours look wrong when they are on a 1:76 or a 1:148 (for instance) model. That said, using white instead of grey, grey instead of beige or black instead of charcoal is clearly more than just a matter of perception. What we are never going to achieve is a model painted in a shade where everyone says, "Yes, that's spot on" except, perhaps, for a black steam loco. (CJL)

[dibber25]

I know those pics.  There is something about the photographic/colour reproduction process which does the shade of almost-but-not-quite-malachite used on dmus built between 1956 and 1959 no favours.  Even Colour-Rail slides should not be treated as gospel.

 

Chris

You're absolutely right! Different film stocks resulted in huge variations in the rendering of green. Look at pictures of AC Cars railbuses as a great example. Colne Valley Railway painted W79978 dark green with whiskers, based on photographic 'evidence'. Wrong. There were only two liveries on the WR railbuses - Light ('malachite' Brian Haresnape called it) green with whiskers and dark green with a yellow panel - only applied to W79977 after an accident at Swindon. Dark green with whiskers never existed, yet there are numerous photographs which appear to show it. Scottish Sc79979 offered the only livery variation in that the ScR didn't repaint it completely, so it carried yellow panels on the original light green livery. A question mark arises over Dapol's Sc55007 for this very reason. Dapol has presented it in the light green with yellow panels. Photographs - including some of my own - seem to show dark green with yellow panels and at this distance in time I can't swear which is right. (CJL)

[Max Legroom]

As noted before, the choice of SC55013 for the blue version is a mistake as this was a parcels unit conversion. The logos on the blue version are too big and in the wrong place as far as I can tell.

 

I think I'm going for a renumbering as SC55002 with the 'GG' PTA logos in place of the double arrows. Does anyone know if the glazing can be easily removed to allow for a few blasts of Dullcote?

[Miss Prism]

The problem with malachite is that the weathered form is a significantly different 'colour' (IMO), and no amount of spray overlay will disguise the presence of an ex-works colour, scaled or otherwise.

 

Edited July 14, 2017 by Miss Prism

[Tony_S]

My green with whiskers bubblecar is now sitting on my programming track and all seems fine. While the body is off I would like to populate it with passengers and a driver. No problem for the passengers but does the drivers compartment unclip easily? I have applied very gentle force and nothing happened but thought I would seek advice first.

Thanks

Tony

Edited July 14, 2017 by Tony_S

[Brian Kirby]

Here are some pics of one of my old Lima repaints, next to the bright young thing. The first four images are under artificial light.

 

 

This photo was taken outside in broad daylight, but not direct sunshine. Perhaps my repaint is wrong, my lining could have been thicker? Sometimes waistband lining was thicker than the upper lining, more variations.

 

 

Lastly for completeness, a quick view of the underneath of the Lima job, original wheels turned, no traction tyres and converted to 8 - wheel pick-up, which makes it far more reliable than before. It should give many more years service. The late Lima/Limby bubble car is still a worthy model, it just needs quite a bit of work on it, now the hard work has been done by Dapol.

                                                            Cheers, Brian.

[John Tomlinson]

Only my opinion, but Brian's lining looks a lot better to me than the RTR version, which seems too thick.

 

Something odd has happened on the Dapol model to the front Indicator panel - has it come loose?

 

John.

[Miss Prism]

 

(distances above and below the window varied)

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks John, I haven't touched the Dapol headcode box yet, presumably they are loose until you choose your headcode numbers, perhaps Chris or others can tell us?   BK