Where are the Hornby models?

[andyman7]

Sorry to be pedantic,Larry.....but didn't I read somewhere on this forum that Hornby actually OWN the late-lamented MZ stock.Thus,we have reclaimed and redistributed goodies.Stuff we wouldn't.....had not MZ gone 'belly-up'......have seen for a couple of months....as in the long-griping 2 BIL saga and the 42/52 drip-feed.They are now 'cascading'......lovely misuse of the English language this....into the market place.Suddenly,Pharaoh's lean years are over......for the moment....and things are turning up unannounced in unlikely places.....or so it seems.Roll up roll up,come and get yer lovely treats folks.

In all of this....one sobering reflection.The stock has not disappeared into liquidation and is out there,unscathed,for us to buy. It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good.

Very true - and once again highlights some of the wide range of opinions here and in general. For example, when someone suggests that the box for an item may be important, they are eaten alive as an evil collector; but when brand new stock is sold with some box shelf wear, there are cries of 'foul' because somehow a brand new item is not presented in a gleaming and untouched box (even if such box will be thrown away).

As Ian observes, the redistribution of Hornby's own stock that previously resided in MZ has meant that certain lines are once again available, because MZs stock control wasn't brilliant and often their stock rooms or high shelves seemed to contain items that were sold out elsewhere. In that respect, their reappearance can only be a good thing - and if the box is a little dusty, you don't have to buy it.

[Guest Belgian]

I'm so so tempted to buy some of the better models which have arrived this week!  Please send money.

I would if I could, but I can't so I shan't.

 

JE

[lofty1966]

Still waiting for my GWR 52xx.....hey ho

[Mike70]

Very true - and once again highlights some of the wide range of opinions here and in general. For example, when someone suggests that the box for an item may be important, they are eaten alive as an evil collector; but when brand new stock is sold with some box shelf wear, there are cries of 'foul' because somehow a brand new item is not presented in a gleaming and untouched box (even if such box will be thrown away).

As Ian observes, the redistribution of Hornby's own stock that previously resided in MZ has meant that certain lines are once again available, because MZs stock control wasn't brilliant and often their stock rooms or high shelves seemed to contain items that were sold out elsewhere. In that respect, their reappearance can only be a good thing - and if the box is a little dusty, you don't have to buy it.

I've just ordered R2824 Royal Scot from Hereford Model Centre. It is probably old MZ stock. But for £91 including postage, I'm happy to take my chances with the box. I'm told it still carries a twelve month Hornby warranty.

 

They have also got twelve R2339 Mallards for sale at £113.

Might be ideal for anyone who missed out on the Great Gathering.

[The Stationmaster]

Very true - and once again highlights some of the wide range of opinions here and in general. For example, when someone suggests that the box for an item may be important, they are eaten alive as an evil collector; but when brand new stock is sold with some box shelf wear, there are cries of 'foul' because somehow a brand new item is not presented in a gleaming and untouched box (even if such box will be thrown away).

As Ian observes, the redistribution of Hornby's own stock that previously resided in MZ has meant that certain lines are once again available, because MZs stock control wasn't brilliant and often their stock rooms or high shelves seemed to contain items that were sold out elsewhere. In that respect, their reappearance can only be a good thing - and if the box is a little dusty, you don't have to buy it.

 

Quite so - in some respects, but how many locos which were never sold and have been reboxed (neatly or badly) have been returned from Modelzone?  And Modelzone's stock control has nothing to do with it - they were simply stocking what Hornby sent them and pricing in accordance with Hornby instructions.  It appears - from the offer to the trade of cheap Hawksworths - that some stock is being offered at a reduced price, irrespective of the condition of the boxes, while in other cases 'the trade' are being sent items 'as new' which have clearly already been somewhere else other than Hornby's warehouse and which are not being offered at reduced prices.

 

It doesn't worry me whether or not a box has been damaged but I shall be very interested if the contents have - and I wouldn't buy something sold to me as 'new' if it very clearly isn't.  So if, for example, I find that with one of my tank engines what position does it put the retailer in - he won't suffer loss of faith or trust from me because I'm a long established customer but if it is that oft quoted 'doting grandad' buying a birthday or Christmas present for little Johnny he is rightly going to be rather disappointed, potentially become distrustful, and maybe even never shop there again.  Bachmann sell returned items clearly marked as such, and priced accordingly - maybe Hornby should take a hint (or are they in desperate need of the cash from the stock that was tied up in Modelzone?),

 

Incidentally I'm not aware of any Hornby items suddenly 'becoming available' as a result of the return of stock from Modelzone (although I concede that  it is possible that my 72XX spent time on a shelf in one of their branches?).  If Modelzone had it then it was already available to the end customer while some things - such as 2 BILs for example - have always been obtainable from other retailers if you cared to look for them.  and let's not forget that at the same time Hornby are also clearing out their stock cupboards - presumably because they realise there is greater value in passing stockholding into the retail trade rather than having it on their own books (which also makes me wonder how stock put into concessions is shown in their accounts?)

[Oldddudders]

 

 

One thing that surprises me is that only the Southern Railway version of the "unconverted" 3rd turned up.  To me at least it would seem strange that the BR Southern Region wasn't produced at the same time.

 

Haven't we already had those? R4538 was Southern Region S1314S, now R4537 is Southern Railway olive.

[phil gollin]

.

 

This "letter" was in today's (Monday's) MREMAG ;

 

 

Sanda Kan

Following my item in Fridays MREmag, I had a message from Simon Kohler kindly asking me to drop by for a chat if I was attending the Folkestone Show.

As that was my venue for Saturday, I duly met up with Simon shortly after my arrival and he was as usual welcoming and friendly. I promised that I was respect the confidentially of our discussion but Simon did acknowledge that Hornby still have production and delivery problems but matters are improving. I would like to assure readers that Simon will still be in a job next year!!

No seriously, Simon feels that Hornby should get "back on track" by the end of next year so I am afraid that we have still got to be a patient in that respect. On display with Simon were preproduction items of the new Railroad Mk 1 coaches which were looking very good indeed. I think these will surprised people at their quality and at a lower price.

The new LMR CCT and BR Fish vans are also looking very nice. I was also very impressed with what was a early preproduction model of the new Hall locomotive. Three versions i.e. large tender, small tender and the Hogwarts version, were displayed and if Hornby can get this as good as the Grange then it will a very good model of this class of locomotive. I gather that those of you awaiting the LNER P2 this is possibly due for the first quarter next year so not too long to await now.

I came away from Simon with a much more positive note than what I had written in my comments but obviously still some way to go before we see a significant improvement. I think that patience is the key word. My sincere thanks to Simon.

As to the Folkestone Show it was much better than I had anticipated and for me the star layout was "Thurston". A ER 4mm layout set in East Anglia in BR Steam days (yes with that much wanted J15 and K1) operating very well and with a backdrop of a calm English Channel what more could one ask for!

John Cherry

[7013]

Well, straight from the horses mouth as it were. We all know that SK can be very elusive with his answers when questioned but this appears to be the closest he has got to giving or we will get to the full story. Thanks to John Cherry for sharing what he could with us.

[andyman7]

Quite so - in some respects, but how many locos which were never sold and have been reboxed (neatly or badly) have been returned from Modelzone?  And Modelzone's stock control has nothing to do with it - they were simply stocking what Hornby sent them and pricing in accordance with Hornby instructions.  It appears - from the offer to the trade of cheap Hawksworths - that some stock is being offered at a reduced price, irrespective of the condition of the boxes, while in other cases 'the trade' are being sent items 'as new' which have clearly already been somewhere else other than Hornby's warehouse and which are not being offered at reduced prices.

 

It doesn't worry me whether or not a box has been damaged but I shall be very interested if the contents have - and I wouldn't buy something sold to me as 'new' if it very clearly isn't.  So if, for example, I find that with one of my tank engines what position does it put the retailer in - he won't suffer loss of faith or trust from me because I'm a long established customer but if it is that oft quoted 'doting grandad' buying a birthday or Christmas present for little Johnny he is rightly going to be rather disappointed, potentially become distrustful, and maybe even never shop there again.  Bachmann sell returned items clearly marked as such, and priced accordingly - maybe Hornby should take a hint (or are they in desperate need of the cash from the stock that was tied up in Modelzone?),

 

Incidentally I'm not aware of any Hornby items suddenly 'becoming available' as a result of the return of stock from Modelzone (although I concede that  it is possible that my 72XX spent time on a shelf in one of their branches?).  If Modelzone had it then it was already available to the end customer while some things - such as 2 BILs for example - have always been obtainable from other retailers if you cared to look for them.  and let's not forget that at the same time Hornby are also clearing out their stock cupboards - presumably because they realise there is greater value in passing stockholding into the retail trade rather than having it on their own books (which also makes me wonder how stock put into concessions is shown in their accounts?)

I quite agree that any used or faulty items should not be sold as new - indeed if that happens you have statutory rights to a refund. I was referring to new unsold items, whether on shelves or in display cabinets. I stand by my comments re Hornby's stock control - both myself and friends found on more than one occasion that 'the computer' showed an item in stock but that couldn't be found, or we found itesm on shelves that their computer did not show as in stock. Of course, as a concession they offered what Hornby sent them but in practice if it wasn't on display it wasn't going to get sold.

Re items 'becoming available' the East Coast HST power cars and coaches are a good example because they were originally produced exclusively for MZ, so those eamples now in stock at other retailers have definitely come from this source. , 

[Legend]

.

 

This "letter" was in today's (Monday's) MREMAG ;

 

 

 

Sanda Kan

Following my item in Fridays MREmag, I had a message from Simon Kohler kindly asking me to drop by for a chat if I was attending the Folkestone Show.

As that was my venue for Saturday, I duly met up with Simon shortly after my arrival and he was as usual welcoming and friendly. I promised that I was respect the confidentially of our discussion but Simon did acknowledge that Hornby still have production and delivery problems but matters are improving. I would like to assure readers that Simon will still be in a job next year!!

No seriously, Simon feels that Hornby should get "back on track" by the end of next year so I am afraid that we have still got to be a patient in that respect. On display with Simon were preproduction items of the new Railroad Mk 1 coaches which were looking very good indeed. I think these will surprised people at their quality and at a lower price.

The new LMR CCT and BR Fish vans are also looking very nice. I was also very impressed with what was a early preproduction model of the new Hall locomotive. Three versions i.e. large tender, small tender and the Hogwarts version, were displayed and if Hornby can get this as good as the Grange then it will a very good model of this class of locomotive. I gather that those of you awaiting the LNER P2 this is possibly due for the first quarter next year so not too long to await now.

I came away from Simon with a much more positive note than what I had written in my comments but obviously still some way to go before we see a significant improvement. I think that patience is the key word. My sincere thanks to Simon.

As to the Folkestone Show it was much better than I had anticipated and for me the star layout was "Thurston". A ER 4mm layout set in East Anglia in BR Steam days (yes with that much wanted J15 and K1) operating very well and with a backdrop of a calm English Channel what more could one ask for!

John Cherry

Trouble is heard it before! Two years ago they were going to deliver the entire program in a year and again this year. I don't doubt the sincerity and belief they will get out the backlog but until we've seen concrete plans it's really only lip service. Again I advise Hornby to instigate a regular update with realistic dates.

 

Note that after the Vep debacle they are clearly using different suppliers and until they introduce universal standard Quality Control you can have no certainty as to the quality of the model. Will it be of L1 standard or 4 Vep . Difficult to believe its from the same manufacturer, which of course it's not! The varying and indifferent build quality of 42xx, even commented upon in Model Rail, needs to be addressed

[robmcg]

I am just going to be patient. I would rather that any production issues be fixed before release than after, too. Nice to read that the new Mk1s look good.

 

We still have lots of models bought in the last few years, or still available, to mess around with, at least I do!

 

Rob

['CHARD]

I am just going to be patient. I would rather that any production issues be fixed before release than after, too. Nice to read that the new Mk1s look good.

 

We still have lots of models bought in the last few years, or still available, to mess around with, at least I do!

 

Rob

 

That made me smile, Rob!  Yes, I've also overfaced myself with new product that needs tweaking and personalising, to the extent that I've a backlog including a fair amount of red boxes, principally steam too!

 

The MkIs sound very interesting and the four wheel parcels stock is high on my wish list, so I'm pretty pleased with prospects.  Nice appetisers at least.

[Ozexpatriate]

Apologies for being a bit behind in the thread - I've been offline for a couple of weeks.

It is a shame when very good models such as the Hawksworth carriages have to be discounted as they are at the mo. Was it over-production or just coaches in the wrong order?  A spot of joined up thinking would have led Hornby to produce 1920s Collett 57 footers to cover the GWR 1923-63 market first before adding Hawksworth to the range. The middle ground covering 1930s stock could then have followed at leasure. 

I think they misunderstood the market Larry.  Like no doubt many other folk I 'went mad' when the coaches first appeared and stocked up with them - partly because they were available, obviously because they suited my modelling interest, and partly because I  didn't know how long they would hang around on the shelves.

I suspect there never was that big a market for the Hawksworth coaches in the first place. The models are excellent and I suspect they were overproduced. Though perfectly suitable for Western Region modellers post 1947, they don't suit GWR enthusiasts at all. I think Hornby might have been swayed by polling results at the time, some of which might have been uninformed (based on the way polls were presented back then).

 

1920s 57' Collett coaches would have had a broader appeal and rather more suitable for the Star, but I suspect the Star was well over the horizon when the decision to manufacture models of Hawksworth coaches was made.

[Ozexpatriate]

I think an answer like that sums up why Hornby has an inability to put enough stock on the shelves, it clearly appears to to be a lack of market research on their part.

Hornby's fundamental problems are not about market research, they are about manufacturing.

 

There are marketing issues related to deciding upon which market segment they should focus. In my opinion these are largely derivative of changes to their ability to manufacture high quality models and at what price. Ten years ago they could do high detail at a modest price. Now they have to choose. This is the essence of 'design clever' and the result is models that are (as Mike put it) a curate's egg.

[Ozexpatriate]

17 pages of comment since 17/09. Most of it sheer supposition. I am guilty of adding to it!   Number of manufacturers, Volume of models , drop tests etc. But the critical point of my posting is that these 17 pages are a result of complete non communication from Hornby. Left in a vacuum people come of with their own theories / scenarios.

And had you told me two weeks ago before I took a two-week hiatus from the web, that this thread would steam on to almost twenty pages I wouldn't have believed you.

 

It continues to demonstrate just how much we continue to care about the Hornby brand.

 

I wish everyone at Hornby well. These are hard times and hopefully they will make the best decisions for their company.

[Ozexpatriate]

I wonder if Hornby shares will survive the drop test?

An interesting and possibly unfortunate question.  This thread opened on 13 Septr when Hornby's share price stood at 82.5p, it dropped to 80.5 on the 16th and remained at that until falling to 77.5 on the 20th although it then steadily recovered to 82p on the 25th before falling again to 79.5 yesterday.  Clearly some element of 'hedging' going on in those movements but the current price is now the lowest since July when the shares bottomed at 78p before bouncing back quickly to 83p.

A bit too short a period I'd say. In the early part of the last 12 months share price grew strongly. It wobbled with their guidance after their financial year-end in March, but recovered and has really neither lost nor gained in the last 6 months.

 

Hornby usually make a half-yearly announcement to shareholders after they finish analyzing the ledgers from September 30, the mid-point of their financial year. This announcement is usually made in late October or early November.  (It was Nov. 9 last year.) This announcement will be the best assessment of their current health.

[Andy Hayter]

 

Re items 'becoming available' the East Coast HST power cars and coaches are a good example because they were originally produced exclusively for MZ, so those eamples now in stock at other retailers have definitely come from this source. , 

At the risk of sounding pedantic, does anyone know whether Modelzone exclusives were part of the concession agreement or whether they were purchased by MZ?

If the former they have presumably been retrieved by Hornby and circulated on the market.  If the latter then these become part of the liquidation stock and distribution will have been through the administrators and not Hornby.

[JaymzHatstand]

Also re the MZ Eats Coats HSTs, as they were an MZ exclusive, but that is no longer a going concern, would that mean that in the future (the distant future with they way things currently are sadly) that Hornby could have another EC set in the catalogue?

 

I have been reading this thread from the outset, and there are some very interesting points being made, the input from those who have experience with overseas manufacturing and shipping are particularly useful. I for one wish Hornby all the best and that they can recover from their current problems. I'd much rather see 5 new models of various kinds arrive and see people debating the plus and minus points of them than the (very) slow drip there is at present.

 

I have a DoG on order, the money is sat in a savings account, so the longer it takes to arrive, the more interest I gain. It also gives me chance to get some more boards made so I can have a layout to run it on!

 

Things like the A4 set aren't really my cup of tea (although I would like a couple of Streaks) but they really need to arrive before the visitors are shipped accross the Atlantic again, fingers crossed they will!

 

Until we get any sort of communication from our shop of choice to say that item X has arrived, there really is nothing any of us can do. We certainly can't speed up productuin, no matter howm much we might want to,

 

Cheers

 

J

[coachmann]

 

1920s 57' Collett coaches would have had a broader appeal and rather more suitable for the Star, but I suspect the Star was well over the horizon when the decision to manufacture models of Hawksworth coaches was made.

With respect the King, Castle, Grange and 61XX Prairie weren't.

[Ian Hargrave]

 

 

But Colletts would be more appropriate with most GW outfits up to the late 50's,Until the arrival of the ubiquitous BR Mark1 in any substantial numbers.......1954/5/6.....Hawksworths were to be found usually on the more prestigious services. If,for instance,you invest in a new Hornby 'Glastonbury Abbey'....early 50's BR...you would be more likely prototypically to be towing a rake of Colletts....Stars by that time being 'on the wane' (unintended pun) and found chiefly on secondary services

 

In GWR days,we are struggling for decent rtr stock

[Ozexpatriate]

With respect the King, Castle, Grange and 61XX Prairie weren't.

Agreed. And Wellington in Hawksworth livery, which conceivably could work with the Hawksworth GWR coach liveries in a not-strictly prototypical, time warpy kind of way still hasn't seen the light of day.

 

As originally noted, the 57' Collett coaches would have been a better choice for a high-spec GWR coach model.

 

In GWR days,we are struggling for decent rtr stock

I'd restate by saying that GWR enthusiasts were looking forward to 'our turn' for a high-spec coach model from Hornby. As delightful as the Hawksworth coach models are, they really suit only BR(WR) modellers.

 

It's probably fair to say there's 'decent' rtr stock, but certainly no high-spec coaches in plastic RTR.

[gwrrob]

Agreed. And Wellington in Hawksworth livery, which conceivably could work with the Hawksworth GWR coach liveries in a not-strictly prototypical, time warpy kind of way still hasn't seen the light of day.

 

 

I've said it before but I was bemused by Hornbys choice [Wellington with Hawksworth tender] here as again we are talking only months in this combination.Sloppy research in my opinion.

[Coach bogie]

But Colletts would be more appropriate with most GW outfits up to the late 50's,Until the arrival of the ubiquitous BR Mark1 in any substantial numbers.......1954/5/6.....Hawksworths were to be found usually on the more prestigious services. If,for instance,you invest in a new Hornby 'Glastonbury Abbey'....early 50's BR...you would be more likely prototypically to be towing a rake of Colletts....Stars by that time being 'on the wane' (unintended pun) and found chiefly on secondary services

 

In GWR days,we are struggling for decent rtr stock

A rake of 1925 Collett stock in the 1950's is most unlikely. Three or four amongst a mixed rake of 1930/40's builds of various diagrams were commonplace.

 

I agree the 1930's GWR modeller is not well represent by either Hornby or Bachmann unless you are up for a repaint, with post war condition engines and stock clearly taking preference.The forthcoming Star is a welcome exception.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Neal Ball]

Given the comments above from Simon Kohler, can I therefore request that any news of new items is held over until the end of next year!

[Legend]

Unless the current situation improves drastically in the next three months, which I somehow doubt, I can't see how Hornby can make any announcement with any credibility on new releases in 2014. It really must be along the lines of when their existing range or announced models will be available perhaps with one or two new models , like the 2Bil this year as a sweetener.

 

A redesigned catalogue would be good, the existing glossy professional publication is looking a bit tired and if there really only is one or two new models , why would there be a need to buy it. Half the size, a bit of excitement to appeal to the retro market would be nice