Cambrian and GWR 0 Gauge layout -Revised Plans

[Donw]

Hi Don, its good to see you've made a start and its going to be terrific, I am looking forward to seeing the track go down and the greenery go up.

 

Just a though, how about adding 7MM or O Gauge in the title or some people who don't know you may wonder just why your struggling to fit a Station into that length.

 

All the nest and I am looking forward to the frames going in AND THE PICS.

 

Bodgit

Andy I had put 0 Gauge in the topic description but that no longer seems to appear, so after refreshing my memory I have added it to the main title.

Don

[ChrisN]

Don,

I look forward to following this thread.  It is not my scale but it is my area as we have discussed previously.  I can only look at the space you have and wish I had half of that.  Our extension is nearly compleat and I keep mentioning about where my layout(s) will go but have not obtained an enthusiastic response.

 

As you are building a pre-grouping layout the may wish to put a link to it in the Pre-Grouping special intrest forum, or at least a link in the Pre-Grouping Layout Link thread.

 

I am not sure I am qualified to give input on the track plan.  I assume that you will be operating from the centre.  I also assume that you do not have the room to put a removable FY behind your station at the top of the stairs.  If you used Stu's idea would that mean there would be a climbe up to the station as there is no length of line for there to be a gradient down to the FY.

 

What I do know is, if you are looking for class Edwardian figures the Andrew C Stadden is your man.  I personnally cannot wait until his 00 figures come out- hopefully before Christmas.

 

All the best.

[Donw]

Don,

I look forward to following this thread.  It is not my scale but it is my area as we have discussed previously.  I can only look at the space you have and wish I had half of that.  Our extension is nearly compleat and I keep mentioning about where my layout(s) will go but have not obtained an enthusiastic response.

 

As you are building a pre-grouping layout the may wish to put a link to it in the Pre-Grouping special intrest forum, or at least a link in the Pre-Grouping Layout Link thread.

 

I am not sure I am qualified to give input on the track plan.  I assume that you will be operating from the centre.  I also assume that you do not have the room to put a removable FY behind your station at the top of the stairs.  If you used Stu's idea would that mean there would be a climbe up to the station as there is no length of line for there to be a gradient down to the FY.

 

What I do know is, if you are looking for class Edwardian figures the Andrew C Stadden is your man.  I personnally cannot wait until his 00 figures come out- hopefully before Christmas.

 

All the best.

Thanks Chris

I do have some of his figures including a couple of the Cambrian Loco crew which were modelled on a photo of a real crew.

Don

[Stubby47]

Don,

Oops, I didn't realise this was 7mm, so please ignore my track plan with the return loop - it's obviously not going to fit with the radius of curves you'd need.

As Chris said, the incline would be too severe too.

For a fiddle yard, if you brought the right hand curve more to the left, you could add some hidden curves beyond the scenic curve.

Stu

[dessire_luvals]

A couple of pictures firstly since there has been some interest in the loft conversion here is a shot showing progress. The insulation between the rafters is complete. The lower half has had the multi foil added before the studs for the walls were added. Now the foil has to be added above the walls before battens and then plasterboard. This view is looking towards the stairs.

 

 

Don

Don, it looks as though you have removed the purlin posts which are perpendicular to the angle of the roof in favour of your vertical stud wall. Did you have structural engineer or building inspector look this first? IMHO you are changing the way the load from the roof structure and tiles acts and you may see some potential for spreading of the roof.

 

A nice space non the less!

 

Good luck with the project.

 

Rgds

 

Russell

[Donw]

Don,

Oops, I didn't realise this was 7mm, so please ignore my track plan with the return loop - it's obviously not going to fit with the radius of curves you'd need.anyway.

As Chris said, the incline would be too severe too.

For a fiddle yard, if you brought the right hand curve more to the left, you could add some hidden curves beyond the scenic curve.

Stu

Actually Stu the curves need to be that tight anyway. However your sketch shows a curve there would rather block the stairs. It could be removeable but the toilet will be downstairs (i could fit one in the loft but at the loss of more space)  so I would prefer not to do that. With your other point about the space alongside the chimney. There is about 4ft 5in so I could fit 2ft wide boards. I was thinking about making those boards portable in case I needed to get anything big up or down stairs.

Don

[Donw]

Don, it looks as though you have removed the purlin posts which are perpendicular to the angle of the roof in favour of your vertical stud wall. Did you have structural engineer or building inspector look this first? IMHO you are changing the way the load from the roof structure and tiles acts and you may see some potential for spreading of the roof.

 

A nice space non the less!

 

Good luck with the project.

 

Rgds

 

Russell

 

As bought there was an existing loft room with studs and plasterboard supporting the purlins. Those  braces we installed by the builder to support the purlins whilst the old walls were removed to allow deeper joists to be installed. The later photo shows new studding which is supported on deeper joists with a binder or beam spreading the load. This has been approved by Building control. Thank you for your concern There is no problem with using a vertical wall to support purlins the triangle of rafter-stud-joist is quite stable however the joist and its support needs to strong enough to take the load. from the roof. Fortunately I am employing good builders although it cost more at the outset. It is cheaper than fixing cowboy work.

Don

[3 link]

Hello Don,

 

Have only just found this topic of yours and I find it very interesting as I am having a few space issues similar to yourself.

 

You are lucky that your roof is not the usual " W " trusses that most modern houses have nowadays, I'm sure many a dream loft layout has been thwarted with that modern style of roof support. I do not think you need to worry about roof spread as you have vertical timber supports at every 12-14" by the look of it, so the purlins are well supported in my opinion.

 

Regarding the track radius problem, I bought some track radius templates from Timbertracks at Telford a few years ago and have found them very handy as you can soon see the limitations of each loco before commiting yourself to laying the track more permanently.

 

Like yourself I also model in 7mm GWR well a bit later on so BR western region, and my largest loco is a JLTRT 42xx and that will just manage a 5'6" curve and the same for my friend's 8F.  But we are talking 2-8-0's here,  so then I tried my two panniers, one is a JLTRT kit and the other a Lionheart rtr they both had no problem transversing a 4' curve and I could of probably have gone down to 3' if I had of wanted to.

 

So if you keep to 0-6-0's and 4-4-0's I do not think you will have a problem with the radius, and you can always hide the sharp curves with embankments or tunnels.

 

HTH,

 

Martyn.

[Stubby47]

Don,

The curve I drew was representative rather than accurate - for 4mm it could be tightened so be less over the stairs.

However, for 7mm, if the baseboard the curve was on was hinged along the roof line side, a curved section could be simply be raised to be parallel with the angle of the roof when access via the stairs was required.

[Donw]

Hello Don,

 

Have only just found this topic of yours and I find it very interesting as I am having a few space issues similar to yourself.

 

You are lucky that your roof is not the usual " W " trusses that most modern houses have nowadays, I'm sure many a dream loft layout has been thwarted with that modern style of roof support. I do not think you need to worry about roof spread as you have vertical timber supports at every 12-14" by the look of it, so the purlins are well supported in my opinion.

 

Regarding the track radius problem, I bought some track radius templates from Timbertracks at Telford a few years ago and have found them very handy as you can soon see the limitations of each loco before commiting yourself to laying the track more permanently.

 

Like yourself I also model in 7mm GWR well a bit later on so BR western region, and my largest loco is a JLTRT 42xx and that will just manage a 5'6" curve and the same for my friend's 8F.  But we are talking 2-8-0's here,  so then I tried my two panniers, one is a JLTRT kit and the other a Lionheart rtr they both had no problem transversing a 4' curve and I could of probably have gone down to 3' if I had of wanted to.

 

So if you keep to 0-6-0's and 4-4-0's I do not think you will have a problem with the radius, and you can always hide the sharp curves with embankments or tunnels.

 

HTH,

 

Martyn.

Thank you for your encouragement Martyn. I believe there may be the odd problem to resolve with tight curves but it cannot be too bad. 49in in 7mm equates to 28in in 4mm  I seem to remember that didn't used to be thought to bad for EM. One thing I would like to do is to try to avoid backing moves over tight curves with three link couplings. I may have to cheat and use slightly oversized buffers in some cases.

Don

[Donw]

Don,

The curve I drew was representative rather than accurate - for 4mm it could be tightened so be less over the stairs.

However, for 7mm, if the baseboard the curve was on was hinged along the roof line side, a curved section could be simply be raised to be parallel with the angle of the roof when access via the stairs was required.

This has given me extra thought. I had considered  having the curving running round the back of the chimney in front of the stairs. However if I follow your line I could make the line run right round the outside so avoiding any lifting section except at the stairs. I then checked the measurements. The quarter landing is 33in below the floor level If the track height is 40in that would allow a clearance of 72 in. So I could probably get up and down without lifting the section although it would be best to make it hinged for when extra clearance was needed.

Don

[georgeT]

Morning Don,  Well it seem's you have got a lot of thinking to do, no doubt you will get there, looking forward to see how it all pans out...

 

George..

[Donw]

I asked the builders to provide an opening in the wall on each side to give access to the loft voids these have been created and the heights are 38in and 39 in so a 40 in track height is feasible with a thin baseboard over the void sections. So that has more or less decided the datum track height.

Don

[David Siddall]

That's a rather magnificent space you're going to have there Don... though all the structural and practical considerations involved in its creation do make me grateful that current circumstances restrict my ambitions to 'micro' layouts. I think the sum total of my present challenge is whether to go completely mad and invest in some 'bendy-MDF' for the back-scene or to attempt to persuade some considerably cheaper hardboard to do the same job.

 

I like your track plan too, it has more than a hint of some of the more appealing ideas from the Peco small layout plans booklet – plenty going on to engage the operator without overcrowding the boards plus the opportunity to watch a few trains go by if the mood take :-).

 

D

 

PS: A layout I always considered inspirational was Jon Dening's 'Vine Street' a good example (IMO) of imaginative atmospheric modelling triumphing over space-constraints when it comes to the thorny issue of radii (

).

.

[Dmudriver]

Hi Don.

 

I picked up your thread a couple of days ago.  The space you've got looks good and at least it's in the house - this time of year in my shed isn't quite so appealing!!

 

I've had some experience of cassette operation and also tightish curves, so I thought I'd give you the benefit of my experience - whether you accept it is up to you!!!

 

On cassettes: the advantage is that you are not losing siding space by having to lay points; the disadvantage is handling them!!  I help to operate a couple of 0 gauge layouts which use cassettes for the fiddle yards:  you mention running 5 coach trains - or was it 4?  Whichever, my advice is that you cannot safely lift a cassette holding 4 or 5 0 gauge coaches on your own ("safely" in the sense of not being in danger of dropping the stock, rather than any personal danger!!).  My experience is that a cassette holding 3 x Mark 1s or equivalent is the maximum that one person can comfortably handle - longer definitely requires 2.

 

You also mention about stock running off the cassette(s).  I'd recommend always having end stops fitted to avoid that happening.  I took some photos yesterday which I'll post in an hour or two to show how end stops are fitted to the ones we use.

 

Finally, with the curves you are thinking about, I would be looking at very softly sprung couplings and buffers so that they will stretch/compress easily on your tight curves.  Solid buffers and strong springs on couplings do not go well with tight curves.  The alternative might be to adapt the 4mm couplings that widen the gap on curves and then reduce it on the straight - or build your own based on them.  Obviously only on stock that is going to be permanently coupled together.

 

Photos to follow shortly (I need to crop them to make them an acceptable (to RMweb) size.

 

Hope this is useful.

 

Rod

 

 

[Dmudriver]

HI Don.

 

I've done the photos!  They are of the cassettes used on "Apethorne Junction" and the owner, Keith Harrison, is quite happy for me to use them.  Unfortunately, I can't get them to add to the post properly but they are all shown as attached thumbnails.  However, I think they are fairly obvious.

 

The first is an end view.  The aluminium angle is set at 32mm for the track and note that the MDF base is slightly wider than the vertical sides of the angle: this prevents the metal sides touching and avoids short circuits.

 

The next is a pic of an end (they are both the same) showing the slots for the end stops.

 

The third and fourth show an end stop from above and in position in the cassette: note that there is a narrower piece of plastic welded to a longer one which is wider than the sides of the aluminium angle.  The narrower one strengthens the longer but, more importantly, stops it sliding out. 

 

The other layout "Oldham King Street Parcels" uses exactly the same system, but generally the cassettes are shorter as the trains are shorter.

 

Hope this is useful.

 

Rod

 

 

 

 

[Donw]

Thank you very much for the info and photos. I have used some 1m cassettes before which you could hold at the two ends. I rather think that one long enough to take a 4-4-0 and four coaches would need to people. I like the end stops. My fear is that if you are using two or three cassettes to make up a train it would be easy to miss putting all the end stops in and also if you have a separate one for a loco you would need end stops for that, especially if the loco has a high efficiency gearbox. I think perhaps having some fixed sidings and some cassettes in the fy might work. I could do that with a traverser. That would enable a couple of trains to be held ready for an odd run and also be able to swap some.

I would agree with your comments on buffers and couplings. I generally fit sprung buffers. From observations they seem to ok pulling round tight curves but not pushing. Ideally one would have transistion curves to avoid the problem at the start and end of curves but they take up a bit of space.

Don

[ianwales]

HI Don.

 

I've done the photos!  They are of the cassettes used on "Apethorne Junction" and the owner, Keith Harrison, is quite happy for me to use them.  Unfortunately, I can't get them to add to the post properly but they are all shown as attached thumbnails.  However, I think they are fairly obvious.

 

The first is an end view.  The aluminium angle is set at 32mm for the track and note that the MDF base is slightly wider than the vertical sides of the angle: this prevents the metal sides touching and avoids short circuits.

 

The next is a pic of an end (they are both the same) showing the slots for the end stops.

 

The third and fourth show an end stop from above and in position in the cassette: note that there is a narrower piece of plastic welded to a longer one which is wider than the sides of the aluminium angle.  The narrower one strengthens the longer but, more importantly, stops it sliding out. 

 

The other layout "Oldham King Street Parcels" uses exactly the same system, but generally the cassettes are shorter as the trains are shorter.

 

Hope this is useful.

 

Rod

 

Hi Rod

 

Any chance of a photo showing the join between the cassette and the running lines please?

 

Ian

[Dmudriver]

Aaaahhhhh,  ... you've got me there, Ian!!

 

I didn't take any as I was concentrating on the design of the cassette and unfortunately, neither layout is out again until the exhibition at Nailsea in March 2014 and I am unlikely to be able to take any pics before then.

 

Effectively, if I remember rightly, there is a fixed portion, similar in design to the cassette which is connected to the rails on the layout at the end of the layout just at the beginning of the fiddle yard.  These have 2 bullet-shaped aluminium "prongs" which are welded to the aluminium angle and protrude beyond the end of the fixed bit of cassette.  These are an interference fit into the cassettes and hold the angles in line and provide electrical continuity.  Occasionally, if one is not conducting properly, a piece of brass is attached each side of the vertical side of the angle above the "prong" and is shaped so that the vertical angle on the cassette slides into it.  The brass is a sort of "S" shape so that it grips the sides of the cassette.

 

I'm not very good at drawing, but could try if the above does not make sense!!!

 

Rod

[ianwales]

Hi Rod

 

That's fine, not ready to do mine yet, maybe you could take a photo or 2 at Nailsea if possible please?

 

Ian

[Andrew P]

Hi Don, Just had a catch up and its a good read so far Looking forward to some pics again soon.

 

Bodgit

[Donw]

Thanks Andy. I am afraid pictures will not be that exciting yet. The Building control officer came and just had a look to see that there was insulation before the builders completed the plasterboarding. The next stage is a skim coat of plaster. I am glad I am not doing it trying to get a staight join between the slope and the walls 30ft long is not easy. I have been thinking about the design it needs some changes so I will have to draw up more plans.

Don

[Dmudriver]

will do, Ian.

 

Rod

[Donw]

Looking at my initial sketch I think there are a number of concerns.

 

1. Trying to fit the goods yard within a 50in radius curve it will be very cramped

2. To shunt any train moves are likely to involve the use of the curves at either end which I wished to avoid due to the likelyhood of buffer locking

3. The need for the main to cross under the terminus is not ideal and gives rise to some steep gradients. The turnout where the terminus diverges from the oval may need to be moved further away in which case it could end up on the curve and force an even tighter radius.

4. I cannot see a logical position for a fiddle yard.

 

All these will need to be addressed in revised plans.

Don

[ChrisN]

Don,

Just a question.  Would you recommend any books for the GWR side of your layout?  I think I have all of the published books on the Cambrian except for the latest one, (well maybe I will have it after Christmas!)

 

I will try and cast an eye over your plan again but not tonight as my computer is on a go slow and I will kill it if I try and look at earlier pages.