Cambrian and GWR 0 Gauge layout -Revised Plans

[Donw]

Don,

 

Do you have any room to open the curve out a bit more ?  Pic #2 has the track centred on the baseboard, if you moved the cardboard box you'd have the ability to increase the radius (although this may then introduce a reverse curve in the long straight).

 

Stu 

Ah photos can be deceptive Stu the window in the sloping roof is in the long side it is the width across that is the limiting factor at 8ft 11 ins I could squeeze another in or two on the radius but I really need to try and put a bit of easement at the ends of the curve. In many way the start and ends of a curve can be worse than in the middle.

Don

[Donw]

Don,

I love your Beaconsfield.  Even more impressive as it is obviously hand built.  (In case anyone thinks that is an insult it is only obvious as that is the only way to get one.)  Is it in black or invisible green?

 

Looks as though it will be possible.

I must own up about the Beaconsfield. It is from the Dragon Models Kit. I was discussing whether the gap in the frames where the motion would be would show and what the possibility was of fitting something in there. Chris said the Ian Young (Sanspareii) did a set and he reckoned he could fit it. I was rather busy with other things and had a bit to spare so the upshot was Chris built it for me with working motion. A rather expensive treat but with about a dozen kits (including two Sharpie 0-6-0s) in the to do list I have at least one good Cambrian loco.

Don

[Donw]

It's always a worry if things are going to work, but the main thing I've read from the above pictures, is that a six coupled loco and a bogie coach will negotiate the radii, which in itself opens up so many more possibilities from just a four coupled loco!!!!! If the Mogul traverses it, most other six coupled can be made to do so (well apart from large GWR 4-6-0's)!!!

 

Good luck with this, it looks like you've got yourself a rather nice little railway room there, and plans afoot for a rather nice railway.

Well done.

 

Jinty ;-)

All the stock is coupled together using the three links, on one or two vehicles the links were a bit short but the ones either side were long enough. While on the curve there was no buffer problems pushing or pulling. However at the end of the curve a little easing of the radius might be necessary to avoid a problem. I have yet to try the Dean goods.

Don

[Donw]

Having decided the layout is feasible I have aquired and assembled a desk to use for modelling. I have an assortment of workmates in the garage for heavy work. The desk is for less messy jobs. I wouldn't have minded a really nice desk but wouldn't have been allowed anywhere near one with a soldering iron. This one is moderately priced from Argos in wood rather than chipboard. The desk will be placed under a rooflight to aid vision.

Don

[Donw]

A couple more curve tests today

 

Firstly the Dean Goods. I had wondered whther the compensation would cause any problems with the radius but it was fine.

 

 

Secondly a loco which really has no place on this layout. Even Red route locos got nowhere near let alone a double red. It is the Tower model I bought it for two reasons. One is memories of Kings at speed (probably on the Bristolian) on the Centre road through Reading station. Just as memorable is driving 6024 up and down at Tysley. It obviously looks at little odd on this radius the picture was taken at an angle to show the overhang. One of the reasons the overhang is so large is the bogie pivot is close to the leading drivers. Obviously not the correct point but it does mean it could get round most peoles curves. I believe a Castle is much less amenable to adapting to sharp curves. I shall have to watch clearances if I wish to give this a run (possibly checking no rivet counters are watching).

Don

[Donw]

Been very busy working on the garden and some 2mm track laying but have been thinking about this project.  In particular the exact layout and the signalling required. The inspiration is Dogelly so I tried to collect what I know. Gleaned mainly from C Greens book. here seems to be the info I have.

 

Pre 1884

Control from a small GW box at the east end on the Cambrian side

Three arm sloted post on the Cambrian Platform west end close to bridge. Down Starter. Up Home (visible above the bridge) and a signal to control movements to the goods yard

Three arm sloted signal at the east end on the up side. Up starter. Down Home and access to Dock siding

 

1884 Changes

Turntable added

New GWR 10 lever box on the up platform

New signals to replace slotted posts.

 

1894 New requirements due to Regulation of railways act 1889

250 yard extension to loop

two signal boxes west of bridge on Cambrian Side and on the up platform

West Signal box 21 lever frame Tyers tablet Spagnoletti single needle instrument

 

1899

Advance Starter and Down Outer Home moved 25 yrds westward to avoid blocking the Penmaenpool section whan drawing over points and setting back during shunting

 

1922 Revised with new single box  (35 levers) and up box used for other function west box removed Diagram below

 

Now I am trying to use the same track plan for around 1910. It would actually suit me better to have a single box so why were two boxes needed length of runs I presume. If there were two boxes would trains have been belled between the two 

Bearing in mind the 1922 layout was after it became a single company what sort of signal layout have been expected in 1899

 

Alternatively does anyone have any conflicting info or confirmation of the above.

 

MAny thanks Don

[Andrew P]

Hi Don, I like the Plan and although I have driven past the area many times whilst staying at Bala over the last few years and been down to Barmouth I have only seen, as many people have, the traces of the old track bed high up and down below either side of the Road.

 

Did you know there was a Village and Station of Capel Celyn in the middle of what is now Llyn Celyn in the Afon Tryweryn Valley.

 

Its a lovely area and at one time I wanted to Model Bala, Junction and Station and so joined Bala Library whilst on holiday there a few years ago.

 

All the best with this one mate.

[Donw]

Hi Don, I like the Plan and although I have driven past the area many times whilst staying at Bala over the last few years and been down to Barmouth I have only seen, as many people have, the traces of the old track bed high up and down below either side of the Road.

 

Did you know there was a Village and Station of Capel Celyn in the middle of what is now Llyn Celyn in the Afon Tryweryn Valley.

 

Its a lovely area and at one time I wanted to Model Bala, Junction and Station and so joined Bala Library whilst on holiday there a few years ago.

 

All the best with this one mate.

 

thanks Andy yes they didn't mind drowning a few Welsh villages to save a bit of water. We walked up a gorge in the vale of Ffestiniog and came aross an old viaduct for further down that line.

Don

[ChrisN]

Don,

I am not sure that I have any more information than yourself but I will see what I can glean.  The two boxes that you mentioned, was one GWR and one Cambrian or were they both Cambrian?  I assume either way it was due to the meeting of the two companies.

 

I also assume the C C Green book you refer to is 'Coast Lines' vol 2?

[Donw]

Thanks Chris. Yes a lot of the info came from The Coast lines vol 2. The station was GWR owned with the Cambrian paying a proportion of the costs. The Cambrian did erect their station building (judging by the fact that it matched the Cambrian style elswhere but it is not clear about the box. I cannot believe the Cambrian would provide the box and any interlocking then connect it up to the track in a GWR station. So I assume the GWR provided it. However whether the Cambrian manned it in whole or part is a possibility.

Don

[The Stationmaster]

The only source which I can find implies that one signalbox was GWR and the other Cambrian but I am as much assuming that from the way the platform buildings were owned as from anything else.  And I can't even find any photos that might give a clue!

[Donw]

The only source which I can find implies that one signalbox was GWR and the other Cambrian but I am as much assuming that from the way the platform buildings were owned as from anything else.  And I can't even find any photos that might give a clue!

 

I was hoping someone might have a found a photo but as it was removed in 1922 I doubt there were that many. It was also the other side of the bridge from the platform so getting a good view of it would not be easy.

If it is Cambrian would the GW have allowed the box to control the turnouts or would that remain with the GW box (the one on the up platform). I could assume the Cambrian box would control the access to the Penmaenpool Section but would the GW allow them to control access to their station? Aslo would block instruments be needed between the two boxes. There is mention of payment for the Spagnoletti single needle instrument but that sounds as though it controls a single line and not up and down lines which there were between the two boxes.  I suppose it is possible the Cambriam controlled the section  up to the first turnout and the GWR control from  then in so at the actual dividing line there was a single line. Even so with the need to draw forward and then reverse over the turnout in run round and shunting moves there would have to be quite a lot of interworking between the boxes. I presume that is why the GW reverted to a single box in 1922.  Thinking about what I had just written it does sound odd that the West box would need to have 21 levers or might that just be what was available.

I would appreciate your thoughts.

Don

[Donw]

Should trap #5 at the Bala end of the loop not have a facing point lock? Also it should throw away from the other running line.

I don't think the trap is numbered 5 I think it is an S presumably sprung? I think you are right about it throwing away from the other running line. It may be just how it was drawn or my error in noting it. I seem to remember 4,5,6,10 and 11 being spare. The loop is much longer than drawn and the trap would be  near the end of the loop. Even so being sprung it would have precluded some moves such as when changing the engine from a Cambrian one to a GW one. This is something else to think about. In practice I do not know when the sprung trap was added it was there in 1922 but I do not know if it was there before then? Oh for 5 mins chat with someone who worked either of the boxes before 1922.

Don

[The Stationmaster]

I suspect that 5 is drawn the wrong way round and is not a trap but a catch point (probably spring slotted in later years) and is there to catch anything breaking away from the rear of a train going towards Bala and doing a  bit of digging in SRS land reveals it to be shown as exactly that on a sketch in their online records, here (albeit the sketch is marked as 'Not correct' - but no explanation of why)

 

http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gww/S3278-2h.pdf

 

There is also a sketch for Dolgelly West and this one has some alterations (in 1926?) which have been indicated on it by someone other than the person who drew it originally

 

http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwu/T3332-2h.pdf

 

But between them the two sketches give a fair idea of the layout and signals and some distances for signals which might, or might not(?) be helpful

Edited October 24, 2014 by The Stationmaster

[Donw]

I suspect that 5 is drawn the wrong way round and is not a trap but a catch point (probably spring slotted in later years) and is there to catch anything breaking away from the rear of a train going towards Bala and doing a  bit of digging in SRS land reveals it to be shown as exactly that on a sketch in their online records, here (albeit the sketch is marked as 'Not correct' - but no explanation of why)

 

http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gww/S3278-2h.pdf

 

There is also a sketch for Dolgelly West and this one has some alterations (in 1926?) which have been indicated on it by someone other than the person who drew it originally

 

http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwu/T3332-2h.pdf

 

But between them the two sketches give a fair idea of the layout and signals and some distances for signals which might, or might not(?) be helpful

 

Many thanks Mike those are very useful. The one for the East End may be marked as incorrect as the signal box was on the Up platform. Although dissued as a box after 1922 it is clearly visible in many photographs. It also usefully shows the location of the Ticket platform (which may be a headache to fit in!). I think you are correct about the catch point probably my misinterpretation of the info. However that would mean running wrong road down the up line would only be donein special circumstances when the catch would be clamped shut.

The West end one looks as though the facing crossover is scratched out as incorrect. It and the short stub from turnout 13 do agree with an early plan of the yard. Both of these appear to have been removed in the 1922 re-arragements and I have seen no photographic evidence of them, However there presence could make shunting the yard easier particularly in the days of two companies. It may also explain why they needed two boxes from 1894 as the facing crossover would be obscured by the bridge from the GW box on the up platform. Perhaps its removal explains why in 1922 they reverted to a single box. The diagram does confirm the box as 21 lever.

 

In truth the extra info causes problems in fitting it all in and I may have to simplify due to lack of space. However  prefer to do so from a stance of knowledge and amditting my amendments rather than just make something up. So I am grateful for your trouble.

Don

[Donw]

Having got some useful info on the signalling and the station layout during the intended period I started to consider the services. Unfortunately I do not have any working timetables for either the GWR or the Cambrian and really need something pre-grouping to see how the station was worked. I have found a copy of the Cambrian summer 1904 timetable in one of my books. This lists the following;

Departures to Barmouth Jcn at 7.20, 8.15, 8.45, 10.50, 11.50, 1.35, 3.25, 5.20, 6.35, 9.20SO

Arrivals from Barmouth Jcn at 8.35, 9.40, 10.40, 1.07, 3.10, 6.25, 7.30, 9.05

 

The 10:40 arrival and the 3.25 departure clearly from the notes go forward or arrive from the GWR. Others may do so but it is not clear. The 9.05pm arrival appears to have originated from Pwllheli.

 

As it is a public timetable there is no information on frieght services. Also there appears to have been quite a number of excursions and through coaches.

 

The first thing that surprises me that the first two movements are departures from Dolgelley. This means that the trains are either held at Dolgelley (where?) or are moved there as ECS.

I can believe one set of coaches could have been stabled overnight in the Cambrian platform. Although there is some indication that a class F freight ran from Ruabon arriving quite early at Dolgelley.

 

I had imagined two trains arriving at Dolgelley one Cambrian and one Great Western then swapping engines and proceeding or  each returning with perhaps a few through coaches having been transferred, However with just up and down platforms I cannot see how the engines could get to the other end of the station without a lot of jigging about.

 

If anyone has more information I would be grateful. I would dearly love to get hold of WTTs for any year before 1922 but do not hold much hope. Post 1922 of course all changed no engine changing was needed and things settled down to a steam rail motor (later autocoach) shuttle to Barmouth and a number of through trains.  But so much less interesting.

 

Don

[alanbuttler]

Hi Don, good to catch up on your progress, not sure if this helps but from looking at a few pictures, the Up platform signal box looks like a Dutton type 1, quite similar to Barmouth South.  I'd imagine this was the Cambrian one as they were used throughout the system.  There is another photo of a standard GW style box towards Bont Newydd.   The Book Law book on the Llangollen line says the Cambrian box was out of use by 1925, though it appears to have been left intact on the platform up until closure.

[Donw]

Hi Don, good to catch up on your progress, not sure if this helps but from looking at a few pictures, the Up platform signal box looks like a Dutton type 1, quite similar to Barmouth South.  I'd imagine this was the Cambrian one as they were used throughout the system.  There is another photo of a standard GW style box towards Bont Newydd.   The Book Law book on the Llangollen line says the Cambrian box was out of use by 1925, though it appears to have been left intact on the platform up until closure.

Thanks Alan. The Cambrain box was not on the platform but the other side of the bridge the box you refer to on the up platform is the GW box could that have been a Dutton type 1?

Don

[alanbuttler]

Looking at the photographs again this morning, I see what you mean - the Dutton box is on the GWR platform.  The other box beyond the footbridge is a GWR design as used on most of the Llangollen line (Bala Jct being one exception).    The box on the old maps beyond the road bridge I can't find any pictures of either - sorry I've probably not helped that much!

[The Stationmaster]

Don the best I can offer TT wise is the June 1891 GWR Service TT times which show the following

 

GWR Mails & goods arr 06.43                                                                            Fwd connection shown as 07.25 Dolgelly - Barmouth Jcn passr.

GWR  Passr arr 08.40  Engine then to be available for shunting at Dolgelly.     Fwd connection 09.10 Dolgelly - Barmouth passr.

GWR  Passr arr 11.55  Engine then to be available to shunt at Dolgelly.           Fwd connection 12.00 Dolgelly - Barmouth passr

GWR Goods arr 12.40  Traffic formed in station order                                       14.15 Dolgelly - Barmouth passr

GWR Light engine arr 15.20  Runs only when the 13.00 ex Dolgelly has an assistant engine.

                                                                                                                            15,30 Dolgelly - Barmouth Jcn Goods

GWR Passr arr 17.02                                                                                         Fwd connection 17.10 Dolgelly - Barmouth Passr.

GWR Passr arr 18.25                                                                                         Fwd connection 18.30 Dolgelly - Barmouth

                                                                                                                           19.40 Dolgelly - Penmaenpool light engine  (appears to be GWR engine).

22.05 Goods, Runs as reqd. 

 

So how's that for starters?

[Donw]

Mike that is a great help. The Mail and goods is probably the class F which seems to have been run right through the years with only minor changes to the time. The forward connections in many cases are close to the 1904 times. A couple of interesting things the 12.40 goods arrival Traffic formed in station order, would that be in station order for the wagons forwarded to the Cambrian. If so it seems very helpful of the GWR or did they just want the Cambrian to collect the wagons and go.  The light engine arival sounds like it could be a pilot for an up train as in holiday times the train could be heavy with through coaches. The 19.40 Dolgelley- Penmaenpool Light engine however is very strange, the GWR did have an option of running rights if the Cambrian failed to provide through services. However the Cambrian pulled all the stops out to always provide an engine so one running down to Penmaenpool is most odd. The shed there did not have a turntable. Also there seems to have been a coal stage for engine use by the turntable turnout at some time.

If you also have the times of the up departures from Dolgelley I would be most grateful.

Don

[The Stationmaster]

Mike that is a great help. The Mail and goods is probably the class F which seems to have been run right through the years with only minor changes to the time. The forward connections in many cases are close to the 1904 times. A couple of interesting things the 12.40 goods arrival Traffic formed in station order, would that be in station order for the wagons forwarded to the Cambrian. If so it seems very helpful of the GWR or did they just want the Cambrian to collect the wagons and go.  The light engine arival sounds like it could be a pilot for an up train as in holiday times the train could be heavy with through coaches. The 19.40 Dolgelley- Penmaenpool Light engine however is very strange, the GWR did have an option of running rights if the Cambrian failed to provide through services. However the Cambrian pulled all the stops out to always provide an engine so one running down to Penmaenpool is most odd. The shed there did not have a turntable. Also there seems to have been a coal stage for engine use by the turntable turnout at some time.

If you also have the times of the up departures from Dolgelley I would be most grateful.

Don

The Mail & Goods is shown in the book as B headcode and it would appear to have conveyed passengers in view of the connecting train being shown.

 

The 12.40 goods arrival was formed station order Ruabon to Dolgelly and I would think anything for the Cambrian would simply have been marshalled at one end or other of the Dolgelly portion and as far as the GWR was concerned it could be left 'rough'.

The light engine to Penmaenpool would seem to have stabled there overnight as the first move of the day (shown in the GWR book) in the opposite direction was a light engine from Penmaenpool to Dolgelly and it must have worked the 06.45 departure as there wasn't an incoming engine there in time to work it.

 

I will get round to the Up direction in the next day or three, other things permitting.

[Donw]

Thanks again Mike. Stabling the loco overnight at Penmaenpool does make some sense. I assume that Cambrian staff would either keep the fire ticking over or re-light it early while the GWR crew had a nights Kip if they were on duty the following morning.

I mentoned having the Public timetable for 1904. Apparently this had been published as a booklet and it seems there maybe some WTT info as well. I found a bookseller with a copy and decided £13 was worth a punt even if it adds little to the info from elsewhere. I await its arrival.

 

I also found in one of the WRRC journals a document from 1898 advertising times to the welsh coast from Leeds Liverpool and Manchester however the route was via Machynlleth. Barmouth could be reached in 5hrs 40 min from Manchester. I doubt the Dogelley route would be much faster. I suppose from the Cambrian point of view  via Machynlleth would give a greater share of the fares to the Cambrian whereas the GW probably gave you a ticket via Dolgelley unless you specified otherwise.

Don

[ChrisN]

Don,

I have reprints of Bradshaw for both 1895, December I think and 1912.  If the information from these would be of any use please let me know although it is possible they will be less informative than the timetable you are getting or Mike's information.

 

The WTT will be interesting for me as an idea of what actually ran through.

[Donw]

I would be interested in the entry for 1912 as there may have been some changes. I seem to remember that there was a Cambrian pair of coaches that worked alternately with some GW ones between Manchester and Barmouth up one day down the next. I wonder if Bradshaw gives any info on the through carriages.

I will let you know any info I get. In the recent WRRC journal there was a recent piece on through coaches coming up the coast line and to Aberystwyth. Not of direct interest to me but interesting. Anyone modelling Welsh railways should join the WRRC.

Don