Bluebell Railway news

[Nick C]

20 hours ago, Bomag said:

 

I don't think people are adverse to change but repainting it into BR green is not not exactly novel. In the 80's except for Standards it was rare to see a loco in BR green now it's rare to see anything in other than BR liveries - for those of us who grew up in the  70's and 80's big 4 liveries on kettles was a nice antidote to almsot uniform banger blue on BR. Now its the other way round.

 

I disagree - I like to see variety, and having everything always painted in the earliest possible livery gets boring. For example, I've never seen any of the preserved SECR locos in anything other than fully lined Wainwright livery - and lovely as that is, I'd like to see the other liveries they carried too. 

 

I'm hoping I'll get the chance to get over to Sheffield Park and see the Adams Radial while it's still in BR black - even if I do have to accept that it'll probably never steam again...

[Zomboid]

A lot of people get far too excited about paint...

 

Having said that, given that there's about 400 Bulleids still knocking around, and almost all of them are either in BR Green or Barry Brown/ Orange, it's nice to see one in Southern colours.

[Ed-farms]

23 hours ago, Bomag said:

 

In the 80's except for Standards it was rare to see a loco in BR green now it's rare to see anything in other than BR liveries

 

 

It's a simple mater of predominant members here to me, in the 1980's it was only 40-50 years since the Big 4 were common  and the main drivers in preservation were the people who remember this so painted locos as they remember them. Fast forward to the 1990's/2000's and its the BR Brigade who are the main force in groups so their preference comes in. Give it a few years and we may start to see the kids who remmeber the early days of preservation take the lead and bring the Big 4 back again as its what they remember 

[pete_mcfarlane]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

A lot of people get far too excited about paint...

 

Having said that, given that there's about 400 Bulleids still knocking around, and almost all of them are either in BR Green or Barry Brown/ Orange, it's nice to see one in Southern colours.

Luckily the Nene Valley have '92 Squadron' operational in Southern livery, so it's still possible to see one of these in service in their proper colours. 

[PenrithBeacon]

The problem about this, or any other locomotive, being in a pre-nationalisation livery is that most of the rolling stock is in BR livery and the pre-nationalisation liveries just look out of place when hauling such a BR liveried train.

There was a time, several decades ago, when it was possible for the preservation movement to buy pre-BR rolling stock but they opted, for the most part, not to do that and so they now have this situation. Only on the SVR is it possible to see an LMS or GW train and only on that railway and the NYMR a train of LNER stock. I think the heritage railway scene is the less for this.

[Zomboid]

The bluebell has a reasonable array of SR carriages though, doesn't it? And the North Norfolk has the Quad Arts, which are definitely not post nationalisation. (Not to mention the IoW, though that is a bit of a special case).

 

It's only really a problem if you're treating it as a full size model, which heritage railways are not. A Spam Can on the East Grinstead to Lewes line would have been a bit out of place in 1950, never mind what it was pulling or what paint it has. And thankfully Blackmore Vale's history didn't finish in 1967, it's continuing to write new chapters in it's story.

[Grizz]

The track renewal program has reached New Road Bridge. 
 

Tampers 73949 and 73315 occupy two of the heads hunts in the Down Yard at HK.

 

[PenrithBeacon]

3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

The bluebell has a reasonable array of SR carriages though, doesn't it? And the North Norfolk has the Quad Arts, which are definitely not post nationalisation. (Not to mention the IoW, though that is a bit of a special case).

 

It's only really a problem if you're treating it as a full size model, which heritage railways are not. A Spam Can on the East Grinstead to Lewes line would have been a bit out of place in 1950, never mind what it was pulling or what paint it has. And thankfully Blackmore Vale's history didn't finish in 1967, it's continuing to write new chapters in it's story.

The first Bulleid Light Pacific on the Bluebell was recorded around 1948 but I can't remember which one it was. IIRC it did a circular tour out of Brighton returning via the Bluebell.

They were fairly common until the end of SR steam in 1967.

I am very much of the view that heritage railways should look like they were,  not just a collection of odds and sods accepting that some railways were just that, odds and sods!

[Zomboid]

5 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I am very much of the view that heritage railways should look like they were

But they don't, and never can.

There was never a large engineering facility at Sheffield Park. Horsted Keynes to East Grinstead was double track. There was a station at West Hoathly/ Sharpthorne. Trains would have mostly been a small tank engine with about 2 carriages at lower frequency (though over a larger part of the day) than they now run...

 

They do a good job of creating an atmosphere, but it's not an accurate historical recreation.

[Denbridge]

On 29/01/2021 at 07:03, Grizz said:

Just a couple of shots of Blackmore Vale in the dock road at the Park.

 

 

 

Would be nice to see it back in traffic once again. Maybe in something other than Southern Green, which we don’t have any matching coaches. Maybe in BR lined green with either early or late emblems. Bound to wind a few people up with that dangerous and seditious opinion,....god forbid anything is allowed to be changed. 

The Bulleid Society undertook a lot of work to backdate 21C123 To near original condition. As such it is currently the only Bulleid that can carry SR malachite livery. Plenty of BR green Bulleids have visited and no doubt will continue to visit

[PenrithBeacon]

16 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

But they don't, and never can.

There was never a large engineering facility at Sheffield Park. Horsted Keynes to East Grinstead was double track. There was a station at West Hoathly/ Sharpthorne. Trains would have mostly been a small tank engine with about 2 carriages at lower frequency (though over a larger part of the day) than they now run...

 

They do a good job of creating an atmosphere, but it's not an accurate historical recreation.

Yep, poor English. I wasn't intending to say that the Bluebell should recreate the Bluebell but generically recreate the SR as it was-ish. As you say, this it does well,  Horsted  Keynes Station is a gem as is much of the rolling stock though I can't enthuse about the new flat bottom rail. That's alien, not withstanding the relative cost vs bull head. It's not just the moving vehicles that have heritage status.

IIRC there was a regular electric service from East Grinstead to Haywards Heath via Horsted Keynes and the line through Sheffield Park was used regularly for through services to London during the line's heyday. 

[StephenB]

The electric services were limited to the line between Horsted Keynes and Haywards Heath.

 

Stephen

[Zomboid]

33 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I can't enthuse about the new flat bottom rail. That's alien, not withstanding the relative cost vs bull head. It's not just the moving vehicles that have heritage status.

I thought they'd only used the FB away from stations, so realistically no one is going to see it anyway.

 

Of course, FB rail is what's being made now, so if they carry on running trains on the Bullhead then it's going to wear out and need replacing, and the supply of useable BH isn't infinite.

 

I do agree that the infrastructure has a heritage, though the reality is that the signalling has to be changed to make the stations and intermediate sections work as they need to for a busy heritage railway, the rails and signalling will wear out through bring used, the telecoms system is probably entirely new, and if it's not then that won't last forever... Most of that kind of stuff can't be both used and left unchanged indefinitely. And then there are the requirements of 21st century tourists, which are often not really well aligned with the needs of 1940s users of branch lines, and which need to be accommodated at stations.

[Bomag]

While it may not have been used on the section south of East Grinstead FB rail was common fro the 1950's

[Grizz]

The track configuration of new flat bottom rail, serviceable F27 or F40 concrete sleepers, with new PR401 (F27s) or E1809s (F40s) Pandrol clips, and new rail pads, together with a completely re-engineered formation using geo textile membrane and screened 70/30 track ballast is being used outside of station limits because it is more cost effective (projected life expectancy costs) when compared with the traditional bullhead rails (steel keys) wooden sleepers (max 30 year life). Most importantly it can be mechanically maintained. Which means that track geometry, over the areas where it has been installed, can be regularly recorded and then accurately restored, as and when required.
 

Bottom line is that for years the money behind railway preservation was only really interested in spending money on doing up locos and carriages and painting them in pretty colours. Which they did very well and this is all very well documented. However no one was really interested in the long term investment required for the track. It was almost an after thought. To put it simply.... it wasn’t sexy. Most people don’t even notice the permanent way, fewer still truly understand that isnt just the rails and sleepers. Fortunately things have finally started to change. 
 

‘Preserved Railways’ are increasingly required to demonstrate to the regulatory body (ORR) how they manage safety critical assets such as track and associated bridges, culverts, embankments etc. This provides ORR and the railway with Assurance that it is safe, which requires zero harm at all levels, in all areas of operation. It is all part of the safety management regime, which mirrors that of NR and LU. 
Track maintenance and renewal is obviously relevant to the line desired line speed, the volume and weight of traffic, set against the condition of the given asset (is its current condition and projected condition such that it is safe to continue to use at the desired speed) and the availability of continuous financial support to allow the railway to continue to safely operate. 

Railway Regulation is only ever likely to increase, which is a good thing if you are doing things correctly. 
 

The formation below the track between SP and HK was life expired. It had seen little if any major works under BR (loco ash dumped on embankment slips which occasionally caught  fire) and historically not much more than tinkering around the edges under preservation. However during most of this time there wasn’t the mechanised equipment available that there is today. Eventually these poor underlying conditions reduced efforts to maintain the track to such a point that speed restrictions had to be imposed and money spent track improvements wasn’t cost effective and became unsustainable. 

The materials and methods used in the current track renewal program are the best available for the money available and therefore represent the best investment for the future.  It may not be to every ones taste but unless there are hordes of shy silent millionaires waiting to dish out endless money to relay the railway every 30 years then that is they way it is going to be.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Grizz
Auto corroct

[Grizz]

99 70 9123 016-6 .......DR 73949 KC to EG....repeat. Heute.... 

 

fingers crossed.

[Grizz]

38 minutes ago, Grizz said:

99 70 9123 016-6 .......DR 73949 KC to EG....repeat. Heute.... 

 

fingers crossed.

Mmmmm......well that was the plan......but then again, at present, it would appear that it might take slightly more than crossed fingers. Heyho. 

[Oldddudders]

11 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

IIRC there was a regular electric service from East Grinstead to Haywards Heath via Horsted Keynes and the line through Sheffield Park was used regularly for through services to London during the line's heyday. 

As said, the juice rail only served one platform at HK, and was for a shuttle service via Haywards Heath to/from Seaford. In those days the only other electrified track on the whole Oxted group of lines was from Selsdon Junction to Sanderstead, served by EMUs from the South Eastern's Mid-Kent Line. It was the mid-80s when the electrification to East Grinstead took place. 

 

In steam days the line from HK to Culver Junction, always single, saw modest service. There were through trains from London to Brighton via EG and HK, but these generally ran via Haywards Heath, not Lewes. Other steam trains, even after electrification of the Brighton Main Line in 1933, ran between Brighton and London via the 'Outer Circle' - Lewes, Eridge and Oxted. 

[Grizz]

2 hours ago, Grizz said:

99 70 9123 016-6 .......DR 73949 KC to EG....repeat. Heute.... 

 

fingers crossed.

Off we jolly well.....

 

[PenrithBeacon]

5 hours ago, Grizz said:

The track configuration of new flat bottom rail, serviceable F27 or F40 concrete sleepers, with new PR401 (F27s) or E1809s (F40s) Pandrol clips, and new rail pads, together with a completely re-engineered formation using geo textile membrane and screened 70/30 track ballast is being used outside of station limits because it is more cost effective (projected life expectancy costs) when compared with the traditional bullhead rails (steel keys) wooden sleepers (max 30 year life). Most importantly it can be mechanically maintained. Which means that track geometry, over the areas where it has been installed, can be regularly recorded and then accurately restored, as and when required.
 

Bottom line is that for years the money behind railway preservation was only really interested in spending money on doing up locos and carriages and painting them in pretty colours. Which they did very well and this is all very well documented. However no one was really interested in the long term investment required for the track. It was almost an after thought. To put it simply.... it wasn’t sexy. Most people don’t even notice the permanent way, fewer still truly understand that isnt just the rails and sleepers. Fortunately things have finally started to change. 
 

‘Preserved Railways’ are increasingly required to demonstrate to the regulatory body (ORR) how they manage safety critical assets such as track and associated bridges, culverts, embankments etc. This provides ORR and the railway with Assurance that it is safe, which requires zero harm at all levels, in all areas of operation. It is all part of the safety management regime, which mirrors that of NR and LU. 
Track maintenance and renewal is obviously relevant to the line desired line speed, the volume and weight of traffic, set against the condition of the given asset (is its current condition and projected condition such that it is safe to continue to use at the desired speed) and the availability of continuous financial support to allow the railway to continue to safely operate. 

Railway Regulation is only ever likely to increase, which is a good thing if you are doing things correctly. 
 

The formation below the track between SP and HK was life expired. It had seen little if any major works under BR (loco ash dumped on embankment slips which occasionally caught  fire) and historically not much more than tinkering around the edges under preservation. However during most of this time there wasn’t the mechanised equipment available that there is today. Eventually these poor underlying conditions reduced efforts to maintain the track to such a point that speed restrictions had to be imposed and money spent track improvements wasn’t cost effective and became unsustainable. 

The materials and methods used in the current track renewal program are the best available for the money available and therefore represent the best investment for the future.  It may not be to every ones taste but unless there are hordes of shy silent millionaires waiting to dish out endless money to relay the railway every 30 years then that is they way it is going to be.

This is a light railway for goodness sake. Track of this specification is wholly inappropriate.

One of the issues with the modern preservation movement, and this is not just true of railways, is that have they have grown financially they have needed additional skills to manage that growth. Unfortunately the people they have brought in also brought attitudes which are inimical to the concept of heritage.

To my great regret the Bluebell Railway is one of those that has moved in that direction which is why I gave up my membership a long time ago. I don't make visits at all to that railway and my visits to others are very few and far between and are limited to those which cling on to to the outdated attitude that heritage, in all things, matters.

Edited February 2, 2021 by PenrithBeacon

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

This is a light railway for goodness sake. Track of this specification is wholly inappropriate.

One of the issues with the modern preservation movement, and this is not just true of railways, is that have they have grown financially they have needed additional skills to manage that growth. Unfortunately the people they have brought in also brought attitudes which are inimical to the concept of heritage.

To my great regret the Bluebell Railway is one of those that has moved in that direction which is why I gave up my membership a long time ago. I don't make visits at all to that railway and my visits to others are very few and far between and are limited to those which cling on to to the outdated attitude that heritage, in all things, matters.

They are businesses now - they cannot exist on goodwill and hope anymore.

 

West Somerset Railway has/is going through similar pains with track and associated furniture along the line, no doubt the Seven Valley does too and North Yorkshire Moors.

 

In the beginning it was preservation - because securing a loco, coach, wagon or line was to stop it being scrapped, now these groups have to find funds to keep them going, those funds come at a cost and they have to spend the money wisely.  I wonder how many preserved locomotives are actually runners these days versus locos awaiting costly overhaul or rebuilding to be a working engine again.  Funds are scarce and a lot of people have less income to donate than they did, only going to get harder as the years pass.

 

I agree the preserved lines of today look nothing like the late 70s or early 80s when they seemed more like a celebration of heritage, but steam went over 50 years ago and everything has to be replaced or renewed at some point.

[Grizz]

2 hours ago, Grizz said:

Off we jolly well.....

 

Well that went well. ‘Home in time for tea and medals’ 

 

Unlike some others who may not be having such a good afternoon. Chichester today......

No one reported hurt and at least it stayed up.

 

 

 

 

[Grizz]

3 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

This is a light railway for goodness sake. Track of this specification is wholly inappropriate.

One of the issues with the modern preservation movement, and this is not just true of railways, is that have they have grown financially they have needed additional skills to manage that growth. Unfortunately the people they have brought in also brought attitudes which are inimical to the concept of heritage.

To my great regret the Bluebell Railway is one of those that has moved in that direction which is why I gave up my membership a long time ago. I don't make visits at all to that railway and my visits to others are very few and far between and are limited to those which cling on to to the outdated attitude that heritage, in all things, matters.

 

Whether people like it or not preservation has quite rightly been driven towards running the job professionally. Gone are the days of any old Herbert who thinks they know what there are doing because their grandfather used to be this or that on some old railway somewhere. If it goes badly wrong now it is the same rules and regulations that will ensure that someone is  going to pay, both financially and by going to jail. 
 

LU is now the only organisation that still uses BH in the main running lines and there is now a directive from the Chief Engineers dept to replace it with FB. Coupled to this ORR are now ‘interested’ in how ‘light railways’ are managing second hand rails with known and more importantly unknown rail defects in them. To put this into perspective the majority of the tube part of the Bakerloo line runs at 25 mph. No difference if someone is injured or killed. As Woodenhead rightly says these are businesses. Never mind what used to be, this is how it is. Future proofing is the way forward. Don’t forget times change and the flat earth brigade have had their day. 
 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Grizz
Auto corroct.

[Zomboid]

Preserved railways are only "light railways" because of a quirk of legislation from c1900.

 

Any railway running Bulleids and 9Fs is not a light railway in the sense of what it means to most of us. The bluebell is just using the legislation to allow it to run trains.

 

As major tourist attractions they have to operate in a manner which aligns with that reality, and that means providing suitable infrastructure. They might be historically themed, but they're not museums. Is it a bit like Disneyland as a result? Yes, but Disneyland is very good at what it is, and that enables us to enjoy something of a rose tinted pastichce of the railways of the past. I'd rather that than only have museum pieces.

 

(I'm not singling out the bluebell here, it's how any heritage railway has to operate in the 21st century if it wants to survive).

[St. Simon]

5 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

This is a light railway for goodness sake. Track of this specification is wholly inappropriate.

Try explaining that to the ORR or the RAIB when the ‘light railway’ track fails underneath a train and causes an accident. 

 

Whether a railway is ‘heritage’ or not, it still has a duty to ensure the safety of their passengers and the general public. One of the ways of doing so is ensuring the P-Way is of a standard at which is fit for the traffic it is expected to carry, if this means, for practicality or financial reasons, concrete sleepers, pandrol clips and slightly heavier rail, then so be it.

 

The key is to get a balance between a ‘modern’ infrastructure underneath a ‘heritage’ aesthetic.

 

Simon