92214 Cock of the North to stay at the GCR (Now Central Star) - Soon to be 92220 Evening Star

[PhilH]

I'm not sure I really see how any livery can be described as inaccurate or not authentic as surely they reflect the taste and wishes of the owner / custodian of the item in question.

 

I'll try and explain what I mean. Take a Cl 37 - I don't think that anybody jumps up and down if one of these is preserved in Loadhaul livery, for instance, as opposed to an original British Railways livery. It"s not inaccurate, it simply represents the livery of one of the owners of the thing. To bring that forward to current times, I've not seen too many complaints about 50 year old 47s and 56s being painted and branded in West Coast or Devon and Cornwall liveries, their present owners.

 

As a parallel, Jeremy Hosking currently owns a number of ex-BR steam locomotives - supposing he decided that, as owner, his corporate livery was going to be pink with yellow spots and HOSKING RAIL written boldly in fluorescent orange across the tenders of his locomotives. Would this not simply represent the current owner's taste and wishes in the same way as the Loadhaul/ WC / D&C livery represents the owners wishes at a point in the loco's history?

 

My convoluted point is that, IMO, basically an owner has the right to paint his property in any way he chooses to represent his ownership of said property. It is our good fortune that most choose to paint them in liveries that we can mostly identify and agree with.

[DavidH]

I basically agree with the thrust of your initial argument, although the "50-year old 47s and 56s" don't really make the point for you - they are still in revenue-earning service, so there's no reason why the current owner shouldn't use their current corporate livery. 

 

Jeremy Hosking, fair point, he could. But as he's selling them to a heritage market, it would be commercial suicide.

 

It's funny though, the red 8F and lined out 9F don't really bother me ... I've always been a bit underwhelmed by the "Cromwell Pullmans", where they could have made the external livery just a bit more (albeit pseduo?)"authentic" if they'd made less of (but retained) the "Cromwell" branding, which would have allowed them to name the coaches, in "authentic" Pullman-style. But I've never heard anyone else worry about the coaches, just the engines. So maybe I'm out of step ...

 

(NB: the Cromwell/Great Central Pullmans are a great idea, however, and nice inside)

[S.A.C Martin]

My convoluted point is that, IMO, basically an owner has the right to paint his property in any way he chooses to represent his ownership of said property. It is our good fortune that most choose to paint them in liveries that we can mostly identify and agree with.

I do not disagree with you at all Phil in the right and prerogative of the owner to paint his or her engines as they please but liveries can definitely be inaccurate or inauthentic or both. The diesels mentioned are still in revenue earning service and thus this is just the next chapter in their long working lives. The 8Fs were never painted in crimson so this is both inaccurate and inauthentic - there's no precedent for painting the engine like that.

 

However that's their call and as you say it's not up to us to say they are not allowed to do that - let's not dress it up though, it's still wrong and historically inaccurate whatever we think.

[caradoc]

A preserved steam loco hauling trains on which passengers have paid to travel is surely also in revenue-earning service ?

[andyram]

I do not disagree with you at all Phil in the right and prerogative of the owner to paint his or her engines as they please but liveries can definitely be inaccurate or inauthentic or both. The diesels mentioned are still in revenue earning service and thus this is just the next chapter in their long working lives. The 8Fs were never painted in crimson so this is both inaccurate and inauthentic - there's no precedent for painting the engine like that.

 

However that's their call and as you say it's not up to us to say they are not allowed to do that - let's not dress it up though, it's still wrong and historically inaccurate whatever we think.

 

But surely the 8F in red is just another chapter in its own working life? Or are you saying that engines stop having a working life when they become preserved? Do we have to live in the past all of the time?

[bluebottle]

But surely the 8F in red is just another chapter in its own working life? Or are you saying that engines stop having a working life when they become preserved? Do we have to live in the past all of the time?

 

I think that for the general public, seeing and travelling behind a steam locomotive does make them feel that they are re-living the past.

[The Stationmaster]

I think that for the general public, seeing and travelling behind a steam locomotive does make them feel that they are re-living the past.

In many cases they don't give a tuppenny whatsit whatever kind of engine is pulling them as long as it puffs, makes smoke, and has a whistle.  I've seen punters passengers cheerfully explaining to their grandchildren (or someone else's) that 'it was just like this when i was a lad/girl' while it is plainly obvious that they could never have travelled in a Mk 1 corridor coach when they were under 20 and it certainly wasn't behind an industrial engine painted in best 'Thomas blue'.  But the vast majority of grandchildren wouldn't even know to question granny or grandad's recollectiion of a golden age of travel on grubby trains and those who do will be told to be quiet and not spoil the day out.

 

Most of our so called 'heritage railways' are in reality 'leisure railways' and their aim is to attract customers looking for a day out.  Some do it with kit restored as near as possible to correct historical appearance while others do it with whatever they can get which will do the job - that's business and the aim of most of them is to pull in as many punters as they can and relieve them of as much money as they can.  If red 8Fs and 9Fs with silly names help them do that then it will continue happening - while those with a genuine historical interest will look elsewhere.

[Boris]

At least the sale of 92214 stopped NYMR staff making nob jokes every time the loco was in service, or the clown who chalked "willy class" under the name plate.

[coachmann]

It possibly matters most to those of us who knew the steam-era and less to those who weren't there. A Black Five in its historically correct livery runs into the station and the old person says "ah lovely", even though he probably never saw one in turtle wax. A freight passes through with a red 8F and the old person says "agh!!!" while a young person says "great" and Mr.Joe Bloggs exclaims " steam..luverly jubly". A diesel runs in and the old person says "Agh!!!!!" while the young person says "great" and Mr.Bloggs says "I didn't come her to see fukcin that!!!". A Class 50 turns up for a trial run in its new colours and the old person has died while the young person says "Agh!!! it never carried Loadhaul" and Mr. Bloggs is nowhere to be found.  

[Boris]

It possibly matters most to those of us who knew the steam-era and less to those who weren't there. A Black Five in its historically correct livery runs into the station and the old person says "ah lovely", even though he probably never saw one in turtle wax. A freight passes through with a red 8F and the old person says "agh!!!" while a young person says "great" and Mr.Joe Bloggs exclaims " steam..luverly jubly". A diesel runs in and the old person says "Agh!!!!!" while the young person says "great" and Mr.Bloggs says "I didn't come her to see fukcin that!!!". A Class 50 turns up for a trial run in its new colours and the old person has died while the young person says "Agh!!! it never carried Loadhaul" and Mr. Bloggs is nowhere to be found.  

And Mr Boris is far too busy kissing the class 50 to care about what is going the other way or what colour it is.

[S.A.C Martin]

Is a preserved locomotive a working locomotive? I think that is a fair question. Of course it's a working locomotive - but I take preserved to mean that normally the locomotive, or indeed, rolling stock in question, has been restored to reflect a condition that would have been applicable during their working lives. That's not necessarily what early preservation was about for some railways - KWVR, Bluebell, and a few others applied their own liveries (the Lakeside Caledonian Fairburn tank anyone?) but some might argue that livery would be authentic for the Fairburn tanks now.

 

I take the view that owners of locomotives are custodians of more than just a hunk of metal which happens to make steam, they are custodians of their history and that history should be respected and where possible given the highest priority for future generations to learn from. Painting a Stanier 8F in crimson livery, though different and certainly attractive on it, is not educational because it's not a true reflection of the history of the machine or the class.

 

Of course the owner's prerogative applies but I wish that private owners would be more respectful of their charges' history and that, actually, creating an accurate or as near accurate as possible with accepted compromises where applicable (such as for mainline running) is to their advantage.

 

So you can understand why I find Galatea's BR maroon such an appalling waste of paint. Either paint it LMS crimson lake and number it accordingly, or paint it BR green, but the combination of the BR maroon and BR number which was never applied really does exasperate me, particularly with the lack of grouping company liveries on locomotives in preservation in the first place.

 

Thank goodness for Bittern then, flying the flag for a decent compromise between physical authenticity (never had the double chimney whilst in garter blue and in service with the LNER) and livery accuracy (the LNER blue applied looks terrific frankly).

 

In fact, I applaud Jeremy Hosking for Britannia as well - painting it in the unlined black was a lovely nod to 70000's past and was well received accordingly. It was of great educational value and it looked good.

 

Owner's prerogative but some are clearly better at it than others.

[PhilH]

But what is a 'preserved' loco? One that runs on a heritage railway, or simply a relic that has escaped the scrapper's torch?

 

In which case I refer you to my point re the 50 year old 47s......

 

....m'lud.

[andyram]

Is a preserved locomotive a working locomotive? I think that is a fair question. Of course it's a working locomotive - but I take preserved to mean that normally the locomotive, or indeed, rolling stock in question, has been restored to reflect a condition that would have been applicable during their working lives. That's not necessarily what early preservation was about for some railways - KWVR, Bluebell, and a few others applied their own liveries (the Lakeside Caledonian Fairburn tank anyone?) but some might argue that livery would be authentic for the Fairburn tanks now.

 

I take the view that owners of locomotives are custodians of more than just a hunk of metal which happens to make steam, they are custodians of their history and that history should be respected and where possible given the highest priority for future generations to learn from. Painting a Stanier 8F in crimson livery, though different and certainly attractive on it, is not educational because it's not a true reflection of the history of the machine or the class.

 

Of course the owner's prerogative applies but I wish that private owners would be more respectful of their charges' history and that, actually, creating an accurate or as near accurate as possible with accepted compromises where applicable (such as for mainline running) is to their advantage.

 

So you can understand why I find Galatea's BR maroon such an appalling waste of paint. Either paint it LMS crimson lake and number it accordingly, or paint it BR green, but the combination of the BR maroon and BR number which was never applied really does exasperate me, particularly with the lack of grouping company liveries on locomotives in preservation in the first place.

 

Thank goodness for Bittern then, flying the flag for a decent compromise between physical authenticity (never had the double chimney whilst in garter blue and in service with the LNER) and livery accuracy (the LNER blue applied looks terrific frankly).

 

In fact, I applaud Jeremy Hosking for Britannia as well - painting it in the unlined black was a lovely nod to 70000's past and was well received accordingly. It was of great educational value and it looked good.

 

Owner's prerogative but some are clearly better at it than others.

Excuse me for suggesting that some of your comments could be said to be hypocritical. Bittern didn't carry LNER blue with double chimney so is not an accurate portrayal of history. But that is considered a compromise and not inaccurate. True enough it looks superb, as did Britannia in black, if you ignore the air pump of course.

 

I have to admit I don't like Galatea or the 8F' s livery. My point with the latter is it is what some railway have to do to survive, or so it seems. Many are leisure attractions for families first and recreations second as many enthusiasts do not contribute enough cash except on gala days.

[S.A.C Martin]

Excuse me for suggesting that some of your comments could be said to be hypocritical. Bittern didn't carry LNER blue with double chimney so is not an accurate portrayal of history. But that is considered a compromise and not inaccurate. True enough it looks superb, as did Britannia in black, if you ignore the air pump of course.

 

I have to admit I don't like Galatea or the 8F' s livery. My point with the latter is it is what some railway have to do to survive, or so it seems. Many are leisure attractions for families first and recreations second as many enthusiasts do not contribute enough cash except on gala days.

 

I did quantify my view Andy by saying:

 

 

 

Of course the owner's prerogative applies but I wish that private owners would be more respectful of their charges' history and that, actually, creating an accurate or as near accurate as possible with accepted compromises where applicable (such as for mainline running) is to their advantage.

 

and:

 

 

 

Thank goodness for Bittern then, flying the flag for a decent compromise between physical authenticity (never had the double chimney whilst in garter blue and in service with the LNER) and livery accuracy (the LNER blue applied looks terrific frankly).

 

So I think hypocritical is a tad harsh and somewhat wrong - I was the one who pointed out that the double chimney was wrong! These are acceptable compromises for a specific purpose. Yet is a livery a locomotive never carried an acceptable compromise? I'm not sure it is. You can explain why a mainline steam locomotive needs two different sets of braking equipment or why an air pump is necessary on Britannia's front buffer beam because of practical considerations for the work they do but the livery should be correct or as close as in my view.

[Paul Cram]

Private owners are not custodians of anything and are free to do as they wish. Museums are where artefacts should be preserved with historical accuracy. Unfortunately they don't then run them in steam.

[andyram]

I did quantify my view Andy by saying:

 

 

and:

 

 

So I think hypocritical is a tad harsh and somewhat wrong - I was the one who pointed out that the double chimney was wrong! These are acceptable compromises for a specific purpose. Yet is a livery a locomotive never carried an acceptable compromise? I'm not sure it is. You can explain why a mainline steam locomotive needs two different sets of braking equipment or why an air pump is necessary on Britannia's front buffer beam because of practical considerations for the work they do but the livery should be correct or as close as in my view.

I was not saying you were being hypocritically, I suggested some people could consider them to be so. Sorry if you thought that was harsh. No offence meant. In response to your last comment, a certain preserved railway management would say the inauthentic livery and / or names applied to certain locos are also practical considerations for the job they do - it, apparently, brings more punters in!

[S.A.C Martin]

Private owners are not custodians of anything and are free to do as they wish. Museums are where artefacts should be preserved with historical accuracy. Unfortunately they don't then run them in steam.

Can't agree with that at all Paul. They are custodians of historical artefacts - it's not as if Doncaster, Swindon or Crewe can churn out new engines anymore. They have a responsibility to the public and the locomotives own history to respect and present their charges in an authentic manner as best they can.

 

Entirely their choice not to do so but it doesn't wash with me that by being a private owner of a steam locomotive you are absolved of respecting and presenting its history.

[DavidH]

Can't agree with that at all Paul. They are custodians of historical artefacts - it's not as if Doncaster, Swindon or Crewe can churn out new engines anymore. They have a responsibility to the public and the locomotives own history to respect and present their charges in an authentic manner as best they can.

 

I think we have a trade-off here between legal duty and moral duty? I agree that people who own historical artefacts have a duty to look after that artefact, but this is only our opinion? (Shared by many others I assume.) If it's not backed up by a listing (as with buildings) then there is no statutory duty for the owner to do so, I'd argue. So Paul is also right - the owner can do as he/she wishes.

 

If artefacts always have to be respected, then nothing can ever be broken for spares ... or replicas? And I apply this equally to buildings, cars, old pianos ...

[andyram]

The fact is some of our railways are operating tourist attractions and have to do what they can to survive, hence the Postman Pat, Peppa Pig and Thomas events. Inauthentic liveries are a part of that, sadly. Some places are museums which have to educate their visitors. Inauthentic liveries would be inexcusable at the NRM, Shildon or even the Engine House at Highley.

[Boris]

Let's face it, to the majority of their visitors preserved railways are a theme park that runs steam trains rather than roller coasters, they don't really care what colour the kettle on the front actually is.

[60800]

I struggle to see what the fuss is about with 92214 and the GC 8F. Both are in liveries authentic for their era and region. They are not authentic for that class, but they are the right 'company' liveries. If Riddles' proposal for the 9F to be a 2-8-2 had gone ahead, they would have been painted in mixed traffic lined black. Apologies if I've missed it, but I've not seen Galatea mentioned in this livery debacle (or 85101).

[RedgateModels]

 

[Bon Accord]

My own take on whether steam locos are preserved on operational is thus. A preserved locomotive is something just that; preserved in a controlled and managed environment such as a museum or exhibition either as they were directly from service or restored to original condition, or most often somewhere between the two but certainly no later than service withdrawal, e.g.. Lode Star, Caerphilly Castle, Coppernob, the Scottish 4 etc.

Those locomotives which are operational are not preserved, otherwise we wouldn't be carrying out heavy repairs to them, replacing component parts nor modifying them for modern day service whether that be on the main line or a preserved railway, these locos are what I would think of as being protected for the future and not preserved for the future, and in that sense their own history (which includes livery) is effectively still being written with much left to write.

Bittern looks magnificent, but it's only a half truth to suggest the livery she carries is historically inaccurate as lets remember there were four A4's with double chimneys which bore LNER garter blue pre 1939 and it is likely the rest of the class would have followed suit had the second round of unpleasantness and Gresley's death not intervened. Not to forget that visual difference between a single and double chimney A4 is not particularly striking as it still looks 'right' and not particularly out of place, however the loco formerly known as 4472 is a different kettle of fish entirely and I would suggest the NRM has perhaps more of an educational duty to the public to attempt to portray the exhibits in their care as closely as they should to being correct. Now whilst she is something of a mongrel, to my mind she should only be represented two ways; that's either FS as a representative of an LNER A3 with single chimney in apple green/BR express blue/BR green, or double chimney form with/without deflectors in BR green.

The red 8F, Galatea in BR crimson and the lined out 9F may not be technically historically accurate for the class in LMS/BR service, but then again these are not properly preserved locos. What their current guises do generate is a talking point about the historical context of these locos and also garner publicity for them and the movement as a whole, and that can only be a good thing. Plus it also brings some reasonably appropriate railway esque colour into an increasingly boring preserved world of BR black locos and maroon coaches.

[andyram]

My own take on whether steam locos are preserved on operational is thus. A preserved locomotive is something just that; preserved in a controlled and managed environment such as a museum or exhibition either as they were directly from service or restored to original condition, or most often somewhere between the two but certainly no later than service withdrawal, e.g.. Lode Star, Caerphilly Castle, Coppernob, the Scottish 4 etc.

Those locomotives which are operational are not preserved, otherwise we wouldn't be carrying out heavy repairs to them, replacing component parts nor modifying them for modern day service whether that be on the main line or a preserved railway, these locos are what I would think of as being protected for the future and not preserved for the future, and in that sense their own history (which includes livery) is effectively still being written with much left to write.

Bittern looks magnificent, but it's only a half truth to suggest the livery she carries is historically inaccurate as lets remember there were four A4's with double chimneys which bore LNER garter blue pre 1939 and it is likely the rest of the class would have followed suit had the second round of unpleasantness and Gresley's death not intervened. Not to forget that visual difference between a single and double chimney A4 is not particularly striking as it still looks 'right' and not particularly out of place, however the loco formerly known as 4472 is a different kettle of fish entirely and I would suggest the NRM has perhaps more of an educational duty to the public to attempt to portray the exhibits in their care as closely as they should to being correct. Now whilst she is something of a mongrel, to my mind she should only be represented two ways; that's either FS as a representative of an LNER A3 with single chimney in apple green/BR express blue/BR green, or double chimney form with/without deflectors in BR green.

The red 8F, Galatea in BR crimson and the lined out 9F may not be technically historically accurate for the class in LMS/BR service, but then again these are not properly preserved locos. What their current guises do generate is a talking point about the historical context of these locos and also garner publicity for them and the movement as a whole, and that can only be a good thing. Plus it also brings some reasonably appropriate railway esque colour into an increasingly boring preserved world of BR black locos and maroon coaches.

 

I think you have it spot on there!

[S.A.C Martin]

Can't say I agree that's spot on at all. There's a bit of a private owner against public owner theme emerging and a double standard too.

 

So the 8F in crimson is fine (despite the locomotive never actually wearing that livery) because other locomotive classes from the same railway wore the livery, yet 4472 which did actually wear the apple green livery in question is somehow more wrong than the 8F and also more about educational value?

 

So we will happily ignore that the NRM inherited a basket case without a single chimney or blast pie, and pillory and demand them to put 4472 into a more accurate livery or form, but we won't apply that same logic to the 8F because it's privately owned?!

 

That's a ridiculous double standard to set. We're effectively saying that any livery on any locomotive in private ownership is fine so long as another locomotive from the same company wore that livery.

 

By that logic you should paint the 8F in corporate blue with full yellow ends! The 47 was in BR ownership, as was the 8F, so why not right? It's privately owned too so who cares for authenticity!

 

I am glad it's a minority of private locomotive owners who choose to act and think this way - if they all did the historical value and reputation of steam locomotives across the board would go down significantly.

 

Thank goodness for the PRLT, the Wandering 1500 group, Didcot, and numerous other private locomotive groups that recognise the historical importance of their charges and see ways to take advantage of that rather than shunning historical accuracy in favour of something else.