Heljan GWR 47xx Night Owl

[7007GreatWestern]

 

I do wonder where 7007 GW got his from and was it checked before shipping......

 

The image is from Rails of Sheffield's website. I own one Heljan 47xx (unlined black) and am very happy with it......and feeling rather relieved I didn't hang on for a lined green one!

[Castle]

Hi All,

 

Has anyone else had one of these let the 'magic smoke' out of their DCC decoder? Mine cooked a perfectly innocent Gaugemaster decoder and I don't know why. I have looked at all the wiring and it all checks out. Is there are large current draw from the motors on these or something else I'm missing please?

 

Cheers!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[Dunsignalling]

4784_3204585_Qty1_1.jpg

 

 

4784_3204585_Qty1_2.jpg

 

 

4784_3204585_Qty1_3.jpg

With that lining, it cries out to be converted to run on 3-rail.

[robmcg]

The Rails pics were a bit tragic, the Hattons ones not so bad perhaps...  the running plate in one Rails pics is appalling.

 

from a Hattons pic, vignette added.  It might be even better in the flesh, with a tuch of weathering on the cylinders?

 

 

 

Rails, nothing to be done here, alas...

 

 

but with a bit of colour-balance...

 

 

so not all is lost, as with the first series, a bit of a lottery?

 

With a black wash over some shiny parts, it actually looks great, I am sure to buy one!

 

Note photo edited and contrast and colour saturation reduced. Will remove if required.

 

 

cheers

 

 

Edited August 4, 2018 by robmcg

[7007GreatWestern]

Hi All,

 

Has anyone else had one of these let the 'magic smoke' out of their DCC decoder? Mine cooked a perfectly innocent Gaugemaster decoder and I don't know why. I have looked at all the wiring and it all checks out. Is there are large current draw from the motors on these or something else I'm missing please?

 

Cheers!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

 

Hi Castle,

 

I'm not sure what DCC controller you have, but the NCE Powercab will show you the current the loco is drawing. I have one of those, and being mindful of the reputation of Heljan locos for drawing a hefty current I checked my 47xx when it first arrived. The readings I got were in line with my non-Heljan locos....though admittedly I was running it light engine and at low-to-moderate speed. The decoder in mine is a Lenz Standard+ V2.

 

If you controller isn't a Powercab you may want to check the instruction manual or online forums to find out if it can be configured to display current. I have a feeling even the Powercab does't show it by default - you have to go into 'Settings' to turn that feature on. (Happy to stand correct by more knowledgeable Powercab owners!)

 

Alternatively, if you have an old DC controller knocking around you could put the blanking plate back in and test it on DC with an ammeter in series. It's a few years since I did such tests but I seem to recall that even a heavily loaded loco would typically draw less than 200mA. Again, I'm happy to stand corrected by the very knowledgable folk on RMWeb.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Andy.

[gwrrob]

I think the ideal model mix is Bachmann GWR green, Hornby lining and Heljan haulage capacity.

[7007GreatWestern]

I think the ideal model mix is Bachmann GWR green, Hornby lining and Heljan haulage capacity.

 

 

Well said Rob! It should be said in the interest of balance that Heljan are not alone when it comes to 'over-egging the pudding' with loco lining. While Bachmann's version of green is superior to Hornby's, some of their lining is also very exaggerated. Look at the two images below of 'Hall' class locos reproduced at more-or-less the same size. In the photo of the real loco the lining is barely perceptible in places....the lining on the tender being most apparent. Compare that with the extremely vivid lining on the model. 

 

Model.....

 

 

Reality.....

 

 

I can see only two ways of improving the lining on RTR locos. The first is obvious: reduce its thickness. However, there will no doubt be technological limits on how fine you can go. The second is to tone down the vividness of the lining colour so that although it is still overscale it it far less apparent.

 

Andy.

[Horsetan]

.....I can see only two ways of improving the lining on RTR locos. The first is obvious: reduce its thickness. However, there will no doubt be technological limits on how fine you can go. The second is to tone down the vividness of the lining colour so that although it is still overscale it it far less apparent.

 

Half your problem is that the moulded boiler bands tend to make the lining more prominent. Moulding technology, whilst very good now, doesn't seem to have quite got there where boiler bands are concerned.

[railroadbill]

The Rails pics were a bit tragic, the Hattons ones not so bad perhaps...  the running plate in one Rails pics is appalling.

 

from a Hattons pic, vignette added.  It might be even better in the flesh, with a tuch of weathering on the cylinders?

 

 

4705_47XX_portrait11a_r2148.jpg

 

Rails, nothing to be done here, alas...

 

4705_47XX_4784IMG_4587.jpg

 

but with a bit of colour-balance...

 

4709_47XX_portrait1abc_r1506.jpg

 

so not all is lost, as with the first series, a bit of a lottery?

 

With a black wash over some shiny parts, it actually looks great, I am sure to buy one!

 

Note photo edited and contrast and colour saturation reduced. Will remove if required.

 

4709_47XX_portrait2abcd_r1500.jpg

 

cheers

Much better without the shiny axle ends in particular. Looks good.

[Silver Sidelines]

I guess it is all in the eye of the beholder.

 

..Looks good.

 

The footplate and front buffer beam looks like a badly made Airfix kit from the sixties - with lining added by Tri-ang.

 

Ray

[Harlequin]

In post #1064, when we feared from the preview photos that the lining might be a bit heavy, I calculated that the late BR lining (orange, space, black, space, orange) should be 0.81mm wide at 4mm scale.

 

Hopefully someone who has one of the production late BR lined 47XXs will be able to make a stab at measuring the Heljan lining to give us a comparison.

 

If the resolution of the printing process can't cope with the very thin orange lines then 7007GreatWestern has hit the nail on the head: They should tone down the brightness of the orange.

 

In computer graphics we also have to deal with fixed resolution displays and we long ago stopped simply setting a pixel to orange when a thin orange line crosses it because that leads to over-heavy lines and ugly jaggy edges (this is called "aliasing"). What most programs do these days is to set the pixel to a mixture of the background colour and the line colour depending on the area of the pixel covered by the line (this is called "anti-aliasing"). In the case of an orange line much thinner than the display or printing process resolution, the result would be green with a small bit of orange mixed into it and although that sounds like a recipe for muddy colours and fuzzy edges, it is usually very convincing.

 

Edit: Here's anti-aliasing at work:

The outermost rectangle has orange lines almost exactly 1 pixel wide

The next rectangle in has orange lines half a pixel wide and so anti-aliasing tones them down to a mix of orange and green

The inner rectangle has orange lines 1/4 of a pixel wide and so anti-aliasing tones them down even more

(The results are not quite as good as they could be because there are other annoying processes at play and I didn't have time to get rid of them. Grumble, grumble...)

Edited August 4, 2018 by Harlequin

[bike2steam]

If yer wanna see how it should look see post#1050.

[robmcg]

 

It is all very well saying this Rob, and I say this in the kindest way, but have you actually tried it in real life with real paint? I suspect not, and I doubt some buyers would have a clue as to where to start. It's easy for people with spraying equipment, provided they are experienced. I could give a loco a spray over with diluted black or whatever to reduce the bright orange, but the fact is the over-thick lining would still be there. I very nearly repainted one of my black 47XX's recently and i wish I had now to show what can be done. Despite what we might think about some GWR/BR greens, Hornby has been applying ultra-thin orange lining for years.

 

It would be a shame to have to weather this model just to hide the lining when these locos looked at their best when clean.

 

 

Indeed.  When I receive models like this and want to subdue the axle ends or similar I use dilute black or ash colour and dab it on with a cheap brush, I have been known to attempt full paint jobs, but they aren't very good. A light wash of dilute satin black over the cylinder lining would be my choice for this model, and maybe subdue the shiny rods in the same way.

 

I think the prototypes did look good when clean, the boiler lining on this BR 47XX is perhaps comparable to Bachmann, but I'll reserve judgement until I own one. The thick lining on the cab tender and cylinders does rather put me off, as it does with some Bachmann models, but not all... 

 

here is a Bachmann Patriot in natural light 

 

 

which with editing becomes

 

 

I think the studio or shop photos have lighting maybe suiting the illustration of every detail but they are not overly realistic, and I incline to the idea that in real-world light the 47XX will look better.  If not I will attempt a little weathering.

 

It is a shame Heljan and sometimes Bachmann don't get lining as fine as Hornby often does.  Maybe the 47XX will look like this with a few brush strokes of black on axle ends and rods?

 

 

I still think it a good buy, if you can get one delivered, in my case to NZ without damage. edit; in any event I will do pictures of mine when it arrives.

 

Surely it is not unreasonable to expect buyers to add weathering or details to taste, they would rarely have been pristine in BR days?

 

There don't appear to be many images of these engines in colour in BR green , and in what few there are they range from filthy to pristine so anything goes.

 

here is one sample.... 

 

 

Cheers

Edited August 4, 2018 by robmcg

[Silver Sidelines]

Yes and the buffers are level

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/92905-Heljan-gwr-47xx-night-owl/?p=3204980

 

It would  have been nice to add in a few details, whose lining, where the smoke box door came from.

 

Otherwise nice loco.

 

If yer wanna see how it should look see post#1050.

 

Thanks

 

Ray

[Castle]

Hi Castle,

 

I'm not sure what DCC controller you have, but the NCE Powercab will show you the current the loco is drawing. I have one of those, and being mindful of the reputation of Heljan locos for drawing a hefty current I checked my 47xx when it first arrived. The readings I got were in line with my non-Heljan locos....though admittedly I was running it light engine and at low-to-moderate speed. The decoder in mine is a Lenz Standard+ V2.

 

If you controller isn't a Powercab you may want to check the instruction manual or online forums to find out if it can be configured to display current. I have a feeling even the Powercab does't show it by default - you have to go into 'Settings' to turn that feature on. (Happy to stand correct by more knowledgeable Powercab owners!)

 

Alternatively, if you have an old DC controller knocking around you could put the blanking plate back in and test it on DC with an ammeter in series. It's a few years since I did such tests but I seem to recall that even a heavily loaded loco would typically draw less than 200mA. Again, I'm happy to stand corrected by the very knowledgable folk on RMWeb.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Andy.

Hi Andy,

 

Thanks for that - I use a Z21 as the controller if that helps? I will use my multimeter to measure the current draw and see how we go. I just wondered if it was a thing before I went in deeper...

 

Thanks!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[robmcg]

Well, I bought one,

 

this is a mildy edited Hattons pic however...

 

 

will remove if asked  actually mostly just darkened, de-saturated. I intend to darken axle ends, rods, splasher and cylinder lining as per the pic anyway.

 

Now to see if it will travel without damage, I have asked Hattons to pack in the middle of the padding in a box.

 

cheers.

Edited August 5, 2018 by robmcg

[meil]

In post #1064, when we feared from the preview photos that the lining might be a bit heavy, I calculated that the late BR lining (orange, space, black, space, orange) should be 0.81mm wide at 4mm scale.

0.75mm actually. 1/4" Orange 1/2" Green 1" Black 1/2" Green 1/4" Orange giving 2.25" overall, which at 1:76.2 gives 0.75mm.

[Harlequin]

0.75mm actually. 1/4" Orange 1/2" Green 1" Black 1/2" Green 1/4" Orange giving 2.25" overall, which at 1:76.2 gives 0.75mm.

 

Late BR lining had 5/8ths gaps between orange and black on boiler bands according to this page: http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1948.html.

 

Those are the dimensions I used - so 2.5inches overall.

[robmcg]

Interesting thing about the shop photos of 4705 and 4709...   I was messing around with pictures, as you do, and I noticed that the Rails 4709 had a loose front axle and dropped pony truck body, as did the Hattons 4705.

 

A smallish job to fix, requires a bit of dexterity re-fixing the mounting screw after replacing/clipping axle in pony truck. .  odd design.

 

here are the miscreants,  with Hattons 4709 being the only one near correct (even then not sure about the NEM pocket)

 

Rails 4709  edited, but not the front

 

 

Hattons 4705 and 4709 ,  see the difference at the front. both pics unedited but for vignette.

 

 

 

Small job for some ? many purchasers?

Edited August 6, 2018 by robmcg

[Heritage Tim]

Had my payment taken for 4709, it may not be perfect, but it's still miles better than any other representation of the class that I have access to (with my current painting ability) and I know I'll get a lot of enjoyment from this loco.

 

[robmcg]

Had my payment taken for 4709, it may not be perfect, but it's still miles better than any other representation of the class that I have access to (with my current painting ability) and I know I'll get a lot of enjoyment from this loco.

 

I too have one on the way, and will enjoy mine too.

 

There are lot more good things about this model than bad! In fact it is very impressive, just like the prototype.

[robmcg]

Who could ever have doubted the glory of Swindon... ?

 

 

picture mildly edited, will remove if asked.

 

340 tons unassisted over Dainton, no trouble. 

 

cheers

Edited August 7, 2018 by robmcg

[robmcg]

Standing in for a failed King....

 

 

what more can you say?

 

Locomotive design reached its peak in 1921, clearly...

 

Note; pic edited, will remove if required.

Edited August 8, 2018 by robmcg

[bike2steam]

what more can you say?

 

Locomotive design reached its peak in 1921, clearly...

 

 

 

It's nice to think that way, but as the LNER found out with the P2, an eight coupled chassis with larger driving wheels working at speed had a tendency to want to straighten out curves---- errr!! Result, certain restrictions.

[rembrow]

Received mine today, BR lined green version. In view of other posts reporting parts adrift I examined the model through the clear plastic packing and noticed several small parts adrift, most had migrated into the end bend up sections. Managed to retrieve all. These were one buffer assembly of buffer and shaft, spring, end securing ring; two pipes, which are the pipes that fit under each cab steps. The hardest part to fit back was the buffer, getting the securing ring over the buffer shaft was almost impossible with chunky fingers, I take my hat off to the assemblers. Finally managed it with a bit of pva glue on the end of an index finger, to hold the ring while you try and position it at the end of the buffer shaft. Applied MekPak to the buffer securing rings as I'm not sure there had been any used when assembled.

Also had the loose front bogie wheels and the bent upwards footplate over the front bogies. The footplate clicked back in place with finger pressure on both sides at the same time and the bogie wheels were easily pushed into their mountings. Then finally clean parts of the body where copious amounts of oil had oozed out onto.

All of these I could fix, but not sure everyone would be able to as hand dexterity was needed and magnifying head worn glasses.

Edited August 8, 2018 by rembrow