Heljan GWR 47xx Night Owl

[JSpencer]

This model is full of tiny plastic parts held on by super glue. While painting and lining out my 47XX, parts were un-attaching all over the shop. This never happens with a Hornby or Bachmann GWR loco. Why expect assembly workers to attach three tiny folded plastic lamp brackets with super-glue to the base of the Tender tank when there is a straightforward method involving one component?  It is mass-production gone bonkers. I for one would be looking to minimize components to simplify and speed up assembly and produce a stronger reliable model. 

 

I must admit, I am having a had time as to how 3 lamps irons can be made as one part (unless part of the base of the tender tank, but even here, given the rather complex twisty shape, I'm skeptical it could be done). Or I mis-understood and each lamp iron is made from 3 parts itself.

Agree to an extent that modern RTR is probably mass production gone bonkers.

[tomparryharry]

Perhaps the way past this is for Heljan to sell the product as a kit. Obviously the pro-rata costs are somewhat lower, but it takes out a troublesome QC issue at a stroke. It seems the customers are paying for an expectation standard which is a bit of a lottery. I have a low expectation of a lottery...

 

I wish Heljan well.

 

Ian.

[bike2steam]

Oh for the days when visiting( or 'bunking') Old Oak shed there would be at least 3 or 4 examples of this impressive class on shed at any one time. Please excuse this nostalgic memory.   

[Ian Hargrave]

I think Heljan and Ben Jones will be well aware of the damage-in-transit issues.

 

I'm not sure about widespread mechanical failure, but don't recall reading many problems for the 47XX in that regard.

 

Heljan could withdraw the model but I hope they don't. If people are buying the model at over UKP150 why should they?  If they aren't selling many the price may eventually drop. It's their call.  If many are returned, it is also bad for business, and the lot may end up at lower prices.

 

It's easy to say an RTR model should have no faults, but it's the only 00 affordable 47XX on the market and I think good value even if it does require basic or simple repair.

t

 

Rob....with the greatest respect you are.....as are a number of others.....making the assumption that transit damage is the catch all in this case.In truth the underlying cause of these problems may well lie elsewhere,maybe in design,maybe in assembly or indeed in all three areas.There is no definitive answer yet and one may never be given.You are correct in one statement.Ben IS aware of the difficulties but don't expect him to work a miracle at this juncture...He's only just in post.

 

Sadly I cannot agree with your assertion about it being good value considering not only QC issues but glaring cosmetic faults as well.

 

To repeat myself....sorry...After the initial capital expenditure of £150+ I would need to apply a set of Fox plates then have the model relined (at least) ...maybe a repaint. That's just to make it acceptable as a model in my eyes.

 

I would truly like a good model of a WR 47XX. Unfortunately my optician cannot supply a set of rose tints for Heljan's offering.

[BRIAN T]

I think Heljan and Ben Jones will be well aware of the damage-in-transit issues.

 

I'm not sure about widespread mechanical failure, but don't recall reading many problems for the 47XX in that regard.

 

Heljan could withdraw the model but I hope they don't. If people are buying the model at over UKP150 why should they?  If they aren't selling many the price may eventually drop. It's their call.  If many are returned, it is also bad for business, and the lot may end up at lower prices.

 

It's easy to say an RTR model should have no faults, but it's the only 00 affordable 47XX on the market and I think good value even if it does require basic or simple repair.

Sorry Rob ,but your posting is the exact reason I bothered to post ,you’ve only got to see there are 48 pages in this thread with a common theme..

Nothing personal....but this is not value for many at any cost and I still maintain Ready to run should be ready to run.

As a consumer and enthusiast all I am interested in is the product not Heljans business practice and strategy and this will reflect badly on them ,as people get more cautious and less confident about spending hard earned money on their new products with this sort of legacy.

I would love one actually but I’m on the fence I’m afraid

[Barry Ten]

There were three examples of this model on display (out of their boxes) at my local shop last week, and only one had what I'd call a straight running plate. The other two varied from unacceptable to tragi-comic.

[Horsetan]

Perhaps the way past this is for Heljan to sell the product as a kit. Obviously the pro-rata costs are somewhat lower, but it takes out a troublesome QC issue at a stroke. ...

The CKD model pack is a good idea - you can effectively do this with some of the Hornby-Jouef models, and have acquired HJ spares to put together most of the SNCF 141R - but then there is a risk that Heljan would then have to contend with complaints by CKD builders (who may have made mistakes in construction) that their model won't run and therefore should be covered by the Heljan guarantee even though Heljan didn't actually assemble it for them....

[sp1]

The CKD model pack is a good idea - you can effectively do this with some of the Hornby-Jouef models, and have acquired HJ spares to put together most of the SNCF 141R - but then there is a risk that Heljan would then have to contend with complaints by CKD builders (who may have made mistakes in construction) that their model won't run and therefore should be covered by the Heljan guarantee even though Heljan didn't actually assemble it for them....

I know the CKD concept has been discussed before and various (seemingly sensible) reasons given why it wouldn’t work, but what about a ready built chassis, with a choice of ready painted bodies and a sprue of detailing parts to add yourself according to taste (together with a sheet of transfers (numbers?) it would solve the problem of bits falling off/ not being able to build a working chassis/ paint and line the thing....

It’ll never happen of course.....

Edited August 10, 2018 by sp1

[coachmann]

A CKD kit......Build it yourself guys!  It wouldn't matter if the kits was £75.00 or only half-a-crown, folk who cannot repair things cannot build things. I had to enlist the assistance of fine tweezers and a spider to re-glue some of the parts back...I jest of course, but they were a pain. When the slidebar fell off, that was enough for me. You don't just tack on slidebars with glue!  Is the Gresley 02 2-8-0 like this?

Edited August 10, 2018 by coachmann

[Re6/6]

As an aside, here's a 47xx built in nickel-silver.

 

[The Fatadder]

I am still pleased that I went for the PDK kit instead of waiting for Heljan, despite it needing a bit more work to get it running as well as the Heljan model does

[The Stationmaster]

Maybe Heljan aren't able to commission the same Chinese factories as their rivals, so have to settle for lesser ones?

 

According to recent information that is not necessarily the case.  Oddly models from manufacturers who are 'well thought of' in the UK market for accuracy and quality etc have used the selfsame factories as those who do not have similar reputations for their models.  I have a feeling that the real answer is that you get what you design or specify and are then prepared to accept (or, perhaps, you get that which you are prepared to pay for?).

[B15nac]

Here's mine and it arrived in one piece with no bits broken off

[Siberian Snooper]

I have one of Mr Finney's to build, with the original cab roof and 3500 gallon tenders. One day, I hope!

 

Edit for predictive text.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Siberian Snooper

[Forester]

So.

I ordered one, cancelled it, re-ordered, called to cancel again, but discovered it had already been picked but not posted, weakly did another about-turn & accepted it.

Obviously highly ambivalent about the thing from the start and ready to return it at the slightest hint of trouble - which of course was a certainty.

 

So now I own one, how is it?

 

Well, it arrived with some of the well-described faults; pipe lying in the box, pony wheels detached, but otherwise complete, unmarked, undamaged, front end all square.

 

Push the wheels back in, put it on the track and it's a lovely smooth strong runner. Can't find anything else mechanically wrong.

 

Hate the coarse BR lining, but love the BR green. Dab of paint soon fixes the shiny axle ends and the silvery coupling rods.

 

 

But here's the thing:        I think I'm beginning to like it.     No,  Really like it!

 

 

It is a Big loco, much more impressive than I remember. Even next to a King it more than holds its own. Makes Castles look almost puny.

I saw one or two on shed back in those days but never alongside a King to compare it with (they were all working for their living). It has serious attitude!

 

Even if it sits on shed all day long on my layout (like the real ones!), it really adds something special to the scene.

 

 

Expensive bit of scenery but I'm glad I fumbled the cancellation.

[robmcg]

So.

I ordered one, cancelled it, re-ordered, called to cancel again, but discovered it had already been picked but not posted, weakly did another about-turn & accepted it.

Obviously highly ambivalent about the thing from the start and ready to return it at the slightest hint of trouble - which of course was a certainty.

 

So now I own one, how is it?

 

Well, it arrived with some of the well-described faults; pipe lying in the box, pony wheels detached, but otherwise complete, unmarked, undamaged, front end all square.

 

Push the wheels back in, put it on the track and it's a lovely smooth strong runner. Can't find anything else mechanically wrong.

 

Hate the coarse BR lining, but love the BR green. Dab of paint soon fixes the shiny axle ends and the silvery coupling rods.

 

 

But here's the thing:        I think I'm beginning to like it.     No,  Really like it!

 

 

It is a Big loco, much more impressive than I remember. Even next to a King it more than holds its own. Makes Castles look almost puny.

I saw one or two on shed back in those days but never alongside a King to compare it with (they were all working for their living). It has serious attitude!

 

Even if it sits on shed all day long on my layout (like the real ones!), it really adds something special to the scene.

 

 

Expensive bit of scenery but I'm glad I fumbled the cancellation.

 

I'm very pleased to read that,as well as B15nac's good experience, I am greatly looking forward to my BR lined green versions.

[adb968008]

I dunno on this one, I cancelled my preorder, pictures so far haven’t convinced me, but overall I want one.

 

I suspect with this one I will wait until I’ve touched/felt one before deciding.

[Harlequin]

Rob, You are not helping.

 

You are muddying the waters by taking third party photos of the model (possibly copyright) and processing them onto third party photos and paintings of scenes (also possibly copyright) as if it were the real loco.

 

This latest background is not just "based on" Malcolm Root's painting, it IS Mr. Root's painting with the identifying signature cut off.

 

These images have very little to do with the subject of this thread, the Heljan model, and if we want to see what the prototypes looked like it's easy to find photos of them in real locations on the Internet and in books.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Harlequin

[Black 5 Bear]

I dunno on this one, I cancelled my preorder, pictures so far haven’t convinced me, but overall I want one.

I suspect with this one I will wait until I’ve touched/felt one before deciding.

Agreed, I think I'll wait for the inevitable discounting before I take the plunge !

[coachmann]

Rob, You are not helping.

 

You are muddying the waters by taking third party photos of the model (possibly copyright) and processing them onto third party photos and paintings of scenes (also possibly copyright) as if it were the real loco.

 

This background is not just "based on" Malcolm Root's painting, it IS Mr. Root's painting with the identifying signature cut off.

 

These images have very little to do with the subject of this thread, the Heljan model, and if we want to see what the prototypes looked like it's easy to find photos of them in real locations on the Internet and in books.

I'm afraid Harlequin is right on this one. Rob is not modelling in any real sense of the word and so using fake modelling to  promote a model that is so poor in its construction is bound to irritate.

 

...... by the way were Hawksworth carriages painted choc-cream like Mk1s in later BR days?

 

 

As far as I am aware without resort to books, the Dynamometer Car  and slip coaches did, but no Hawksworth day coaches received BR choc & cream. 

Edited August 11, 2018 by coachmann

[Metr0Land]

 

 

edit, by the way were Hawksworth carriages painted choc-cream like Mk1s in later BR days?

 

AFAIK only the 2 coaches kept for the WR 'Royal Train' were in choc-cream?

[Ian Hargrave]

Agreed, I think I'll wait for the inevitable discounting before I take the plunge !

Don't hold your breath on that one.They won't I think be producing these in similar numbers to the O2 which did of course go that way.The present exchange rate and economic uncertainty may mean this is the sum of what we get.Retailers have too narrow a profit margin to discount.Some are not stocking this.One who sold me an O2 two years ago has no stocks of the 47XX at present.

 

You pays your money and you takes your choice.ATM,my "ceiling " is set way below Heljan's on this one.

[John Tomlinson]

Don't hold your breath on that one.They won't I think be producing these in similar numbers to the O2 which did of course go that way.The present exchange rate and economic uncertainty may mean this is the sum of what we get.Retailers have too narrow a profit margin to discount.Some are not stocking this.One who sold me an O2 two years ago has no stocks of the 47XX at present.

 

You pays your money and you takes your choice.ATM,my "ceiling " is set way below Heljan's on this one.

 

That's an interesting take, but I don't think anyone anticipated with the 02 that 3 or 4 years after release a big lump of stock would turn up with Hattons at 40% off.

 

The Heljan sale at Hattons I thought arose because they were clearing manufacturers stock after a bulk buy-in, not their own (please say if I'm wrong), so its quite possible Heljan have a shed full of these that aren't moving because of the problems reported in this thread.

 

To throw my own tuppence worth in, it seems that £150 is now what we have to pay for a largish steam loco on release, from any of the manufacturers. So the price per se isn't the problem, it's the QC. I'll wait and see what happens, I've far too much stuff anyway!

 

John.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... When the slidebar fell off, that was enough for me. You don't just tack on slidebars with glue!  Is the Gresley 02 2-8-0 like this?

Taken overall the Gresley O2 model fully shares in the constructional idiosyncracies observed on the 47xx. While I prefer the simpler constructional style we are used to from Bachmann and Hornby, I am a full on 'glass half full' type, and it is nevertheless a good model for the money in my opinion. I have had my first purchase working hard on the layout for what must be two years now, and it has proved fully reliable in all respects, with the bonus of being heavy enough out of the box to start and pull a 2.5kg train. Hoping to someday be able to purchase the GNR versions originally announced as a result.

 

Specific to the slide bars; these are push fitted into cylinder block mouldings on most current RTR OO models; and I have seen them fall out, to which some designs are more prone than others. On the O2 the superiority of the prototype design by Doncaster, which has the single slide bar assembly supported both ends, and which arrangement is replicated on the model, removes this particular risk. Come to the dry side...

[adb968008]

So here’s my gradient test comparing the 02 with the 47xx, and just for fun, a Mainline 43xx..

 

 

The 02 is a mighty meaty puller, there’s no doubt about it.

The 47xx still takes the same load, but as it curves on my gradient, it slows to a crawl (slipping), I think it’s the length of the 47xx wheelbase on the curves that’s going against it, more so than the 02.

 

But just for fun, a nicely oiled, serviced Mainline 43xx runs away with it.. the power of a subtle traction tyre despised by so many in the UK.

 

As I said i’m Sold on the 47xx, but the BR Green one, I think I want to see in the flesh first to see what the linings really like, but for Haulage, it’s up there.

Edited August 11, 2018 by adb968008