Mid-Cornwall Lines - 1950s Western Region in 00

[Chamby]

29 minutes ago, Stubby47 said:

Would they not already have the single line token when travelling TO Barnstable ?

 

I’m guessing it would be left behind in the cab at what becomes the rear of the train, when travelling in the opposite direction on the return journey? 

[St Enodoc]

25 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

Yes, but the driver has to surrender it into the instrument and get it out again before he can depart. 

Why (serious question)?

[Mike_Walker]

3 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Why (serious question)?

Because the line is controlled under No Signaller Token regulations supervised by Crediton SB.  There are two sections, Crediton to Eggesford and Eggesford to Barnstaple.  There is a passing loop at Eggesford - used by most rains on the line - with remote instruments there.  The signaller at Crediton releases the tokens there remotely.  The instrument at Barnstaple provides the dual function of confirming to the Crediton signaller the train has arrived and permits, if required, a second train to follow from Eggesford to Barnstaple although this facility is rarely if ever used these days.  The single remaining platform at Barnstaple could accommodate two 3-car units if required. 

 

Remote instruments at the end of NST sections is the normal practice and can be found at Pembroke Dock and Bourne End on the Western although the layout at the latter allows for two trains and two platforms so is a little more complicated.

 

And, before you ask, the Newquay Branch is worked by One Train with Staff (OT(S) ) from Goonbarrow to Newquay whilst St. Blazey to Goonbarrow is now the only section on the Western that still uses Electric Key Token working between manned signal boxes.

[St Enodoc]

57 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

permits, if required, a second train to follow from Eggesford to Barnstaple

That's the bit I didn't know.

 

57 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

And, before you ask, the Newquay Branch is worked by One Train with Staff (OT(S) ) from Goonbarrow to Newquay

I knew that...

 

58 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

St. Blazey to Goonbarrow is now the only section on the Western that still uses Electric Key Token working between manned signal boxes.

...but I didn't know that.

 

Thanks.

[Nick C]

There is a similar thing at Alton, MHR, for when it is running under auto-working (i.e box closed) - the driver puts the token into a specially adapted token machine, and then removes it again, and this tells the system that he is ready to depart, setting signals accordingly.

[The Stationmaster]

On 15/08/2021 at 18:15, drduncan said:

Wouldn’t the signal box be better sited  on the outside of one of the chords as it will give visibility of all approaches?

Duncan

Inside the triangle is far better for sighting the tail lamp (if needed) on the lines which lie further from the signal box as was the case at Bradford Jcn which had a clear view of all three sides of the triangle.  Putting the 'box outside creates a risk of a train being masked by one passing in front of the 'box plus it increases the distance  between the 'box and the trains the Signalman is supposed to be looking at.

 

re the Chippenham over-carried token - that was in 1969/70 Ian.  Re the sign at Barnstaple - yes, as Mike Walker has said it was provided after several instances of trains leaving without the token which had I believe had initially followed a crack down on Drivers failing to return the token to the instrument after arriving at Barnstaple.

[St Enodoc]

For want of anything better to do, last night I had another browse through Xpress Publishing's "Operation Cornwall", which I always find a good read, picturing the trains that are described, in my mind's eye, as they make their way through Mid-Cornwall. This book was my main reference when working out the carriage workings for the layout, so today I had another look through the timetable sequence spreadsheet and, by comparing the trains in the sequence with the prototype equivalents, I made some slight adjustments to the formations so that they will represent better the real trains. The changes will only come into effect, though, when Polperran and Pentowan are fully operational and we start running the full sequence instead of the main-line-only version that we're using at the moment.

 

Separately, I also modified the loco workings slightly as I had some locos that weren't rostered on any trains at all, so I've split up a couple of workings to give the Star, another Hall and another 8751 pannier a turn.

 

I'll still have a few panniers spare, as well as the "special" locos - the King, the two gas-turbines and City of Truro - that will only come out when nobody is looking.

[bgman]

25 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

I'll still have a few panniers spare, as well as the "special" locos - the King, the two gas-turbines and City of Truro - that will only come out when nobody is looking.

 

When they do can you post some photos please ?

 

We won't tell, it'll be our little secret ! 

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

For want of anything better to do, last night I had another browse through Xpress Publishing's "Operation Cornwall", which I always find a good read, picturing the trains that are described, in my mind's eye, as they make their way through Mid-Cornwall. This book was my main reference when working out the carriage workings for the layout, so today I had another look through the timetable sequence spreadsheet and, by comparing the trains in the sequence with the prototype equivalents, I made some slight adjustments to the formations so that they will represent better the real trains. The changes will only come into effect, though, when Polperran and Pentowan are fully operational and we start running the full sequence instead of the main-line-only version that we're using at the moment.

This is where you, and Gilbert Barnatt on Peterborough North, command my admiration. Working with WTT and CWN data to produce the most realistic formations in a plausible TT is hard work. Gilbert has the double-edged sword of a single location in a very narrow period, which both dictates and limits. Your 'what if' layout allows more creativity, but you still go back to recorded reality for guidance.

 

Utter respect. 

[Stubby47]

I'll have exactly the same philosophy when running Trelothen:

 

FY operator: - Do you want a train ?

Layout operator:- What've you got ?

FY operator:- I can send you a goods

Layout operator:- Hang on, I'll just clear the loop...

 

Seamless TT operation....

[St Enodoc]

Just now, Oldddudders said:

This is where you, and Gilbert Barnatt on Peterborough North, command my admiration. Working with WTT and CWN data to produce the most realistic formations in a plausible TT is hard work. Gilbert has the double-edged sword of a single location in a very narrow period, which both dictates and limits. Your 'what if' layout allows more creativity, but you still go back to recorded reality for guidance.

 

Utter respect. 

Thanks Ian. It is hard work but for some bizarre reason I enjoy doing it.

 

I can't speak for @great northern Gilbert but I cheat a bit (a lot). For a start, as I've mentioned before, I only run about 60% of the prototype trains and each carriage set is only about 60% as long as the original. I also make multiple use of "generic" coaches to cut down the total number I need.

 

A particularly good/bad example is train 504, the 2212 FO Paddington - Penzance, which calls at Porthmellyn Road between 0407 and 0412 on Saturday morning. It's made up of a 6-coach "core" of Hornby/Airfix/Bachmann GWR coaches, plus another 2 coach set on the back to make a total of 8. By some miracle of time/space (aka the continuous run), it ends up where it started at Paddington, where the rear two coaches are swapped for a Mk1 sleeper and BCK to form train 506, the 2235 FO Paddington - Penzance, passing Porthmellyn Road at 0439. Because the rear two coaches, and the loco, are different, the eye overlooks the six identical coaches in between and the brain suspends disbelief, as the saying goes.

 

This is the worst case, as I just couldn't find another way to deal with these specific trains without having to make up an extra set of coaches, but there are many others albeit with more decent intervals between them.

 

By doing this sort of thing, I've kept the total number of coaches down to perhaps 25 - 30% of what actually ran on the prototype and, more importantly, made sure that there is space for them on the layout.

 

Unlike Gilbert, though, I don't worry too much about the exact types of coach. Mk 1s are easy but, generally, any ex-GWR SK - Hornby/Bachmann/BSL/Comet/Slaters/what-have-you - will do.

[St Enodoc]

3 minutes ago, Stubby47 said:

I'll have exactly the same philosophy when running Trelothen:

 

FY operator: - Do you want a train ?

Layout operator:- What've you got ?

FY operator:- I can send you a goods

Layout operator:- Hang on, I'll just clear the loop...

 

Seamless TT operation....

Talking to yourself again?

[KingEdwardII]

24 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Talking to yourself again?

You get a better quality of conversation doing that....

 

 

Mike.

Edited August 17, 2021 by KingEdwardII
Spelling!

[Oldddudders]

15 minutes ago, Stubby47 said:

I'll have exactly the same philosophy when running Trelothen:

 

FY operator: - Do you want a train ?

Layout operator:- What've you got ?

FY operator:- I can send you a goods

Layout operator:- Hang on, I'll just clear the loop...

 

Seamless TT operation....

And there is nothing 'wrong' with that, Stu! After all, many exhibition layouts do little more, and as long as the paying punter witnesses fine trains running reliably on a fine layout he/she feels they have their money's worth. 

 

We each have our own needs from this hobby, but as a retired railwayman I particularly respect those who strive for plausibility in operations as well as fidelity in individual models.

 

I hasten to add that actually emulating their achievements takes a little more effort! My main contribution to that is finding I really can run round the Bude portion of an up service at Halwill (Beaworthy), draw it back onto the Bude branch and then propel onto the back of the arriving up Padstow portion. Only after the runround is complete can a down train clear the single line and enter the platform, coming to a stand before the signalman may permit the up Padstow portion to pass the home signal. A good deal of satisfaction as up and down trains depart. 

[TrevorP1]

33 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Thanks Ian. It is hard work but for some bizarre reason I enjoy doing it.

 

I can't speak for @great northern Gilbert but I cheat a bit (a lot). For a start, as I've mentioned before, I only run about 60% of the prototype trains and each carriage set is only about 60% as long as the original. I also make multiple use of "generic" coaches to cut down the total number I need.

 

A particularly good/bad example is train 504, the 2212 FO Paddington - Penzance, which calls at Porthmellyn Road between 0407 and 0412 on Saturday morning. It's made up of a 6-coach "core" of Hornby/Airfix/Bachmann GWR coaches, plus another 2 coach set on the back to make a total of 8. By some miracle of time/space (aka the continuous run), it ends up where it started at Paddington, where the rear two coaches are swapped for a Mk1 sleeper and BCK to form train 506, the 2235 FO Paddington - Penzance, passing Porthmellyn Road at 0439. Because the rear two coaches, and the loco, are different, the eye overlooks the six identical coaches in between and the brain suspends disbelief, as the saying goes.

 

This is the worst case, as I just couldn't find another way to deal with these specific trains without having to make up an extra set of coaches, but there are many others albeit with more decent intervals between them.

 

By doing this sort of thing, I've kept the total number of coaches down to perhaps 25 - 30% of what actually ran on the prototype and, more importantly, made sure that there is space for them on the layout.

 

Unlike Gilbert, though, I don't worry too much about the exact types of coach. Mk 1s are easy but, generally, any ex-GWR SK - Hornby/Bachmann/BSL/Comet/Slaters/what-have-you - will do.

That’s my approach as well and I find it rewarding to know that I’m doing the best job I can. I’ve spent hours poring over the book  John has mentioned, the invaluable CWPs kindly provided by Robert Carroll plus period images. As John has said Mk1s are easy but  over time I’m getting nearer with the GW types although it’ll be a long time before they’re 75% correct, let alone 100%.

 

A problem I have is that I get carried away. For instance my 09:30 St Ives is nearly prototype length. If I’m honest it looks ridiculous on the layout (about ⅔ would be better) but I tell myself that it is what I would see standing on a bridge 65 years ago…

[BMacdermott]

40 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Thanks Ian. It is hard work but for some bizarre reason I enjoy doing it.

 

I can't speak for @great northern Gilbert but I cheat a bit (a lot). For a start, as I've mentioned before, I only run about 60% of the prototype trains and each carriage set is only about 60% as long as the original. I also make multiple use of "generic" coaches to cut down the total number I need.

 

A particularly good/bad example is train 504, the 2212 FO Paddington - Penzance, which calls at Porthmellyn Road between 0407 and 0412 on Saturday morning. It's made up of a 6-coach "core" of Hornby/Airfix/Bachmann GWR coaches, plus another 2 coach set on the back to make a total of 8. By some miracle of time/space (aka the continuous run), it ends up where it started at Paddington, where the rear two coaches are swapped for a Mk1 sleeper and BCK to form train 506, the 2235 FO Paddington - Penzance, passing Porthmellyn Road at 0439. Because the rear two coaches, and the loco, are different, the eye overlooks the six identical coaches in between and the brain suspends disbelief, as the saying goes.

 

This is the worst case, as I just couldn't find another way to deal with these specific trains without having to make up an extra set of coaches, but there are many others albeit with more decent intervals between them.

 

By doing this sort of thing, I've kept the total number of coaches down to perhaps 25 - 30% of what actually ran on the prototype and, more importantly, made sure that there is space for them on the layout.

 

Unlike Gilbert, though, I don't worry too much about the exact types of coach. Mk 1s are easy but, generally, any ex-GWR SK - Hornby/Bachmann/BSL/Comet/Slaters/what-have-you - will do.

 

Hello John

 

That is pretty much how I run my trains and have thoroughly enjoyed working out 'cyclic diagrams' for stock and locos. It has taken me many years of work, but I have now 'arrived'!

 

My photo below shows just one of eight such workings - others are more complex! (That's not to mention freights and milk trains etc which stop and shunt as needed. About 20 trains on the go at once.)

 

As a brief summary, trains with arrows facing to your right are Down trains. They enter the station (the middle column) then pass or depart to the right. Each train is identified by a tinplate numbered saddle (while off scene) and has a loco rostered to it. 

 

Trains all then go round a set of Down Line reverse loops - the outer of which will take two double-headed 10-coach trains (when I'm running WR Newton Abbot) - and come back to the station as Up trains. From there, they go round the Up reverse loops to return as Down trains.

 

Locos and stock can be revamped easily in the reverse loops as I have storage sidings as kick-backs off the exits.

 

I'll take you through the 5+5 train...

 

• Train 18 is a Down train hauled by a 22xx (BSK-SK-CK-SK-BSK).
• Stops in the station.
• Proceeds to the Down loops.
• 22xx off.
• Brit hooks on with five coaches (SK-BSK-SK-SK-Diner).
• Is now an Up 10-coach express (but still No.18)
• Passes station non-stop (becomes 19). Goes round Up reverse loops.
• Is now Down 10-coach express non-stop (19). To Down reverse loops.
• Brit off - County on.
• Still a 10-coach Up express (19) but now calls at the station.
• Departs as Up express (now 20) and comes back round the loop as a Down express.
• Calls at station. Departs to Down loops.
• County off with five leading coaches.
• 22xx hooks on to rear 5-set. Becomes Up train calling at station (still No.20)
• Departs as Up train (but now as No.18)
• Ad infinitum.

 

Have I given you a headache??

 

Brian

 

 

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

Now if you want a true cyclic diagam that is only the first part of it.  The second part starts with the Brit at the top, the third part starts with the County at the top and the fourth part starts with the (second 22XX) at the top and they all run simultaneously - which of course they can't.   So what actually happens in a cyclic diagram is that it is a complete diagram running over several days. which starts with Loco A on the first line on Monday, Loco B on the first line on Tuesday, Loco C on the first line on Wednesday. ... and so on.    So they are all working the same diagram but with each loco on a different leg of the diagram at the same time.  Thus a 5 day cyclic diagram will need 5 locos on it at any one time - but all working different parts of it.  On the WR the cyclic loco diagrams always noted at the top how many locos were required to cover the diagram.

 

Cyclic diagrams have the potential advantage of being potentially more productive and avoiding the need to work out where the resource next rotates to at the end of each days work because the work type and mileages can be balanced within the diagram.  But they are far more prone to falling apart in the event of loco failure or tran cancellation etc.

 

Ordinary rotational diagrams will mean the loco or coaches works Turn 18 then works Turn 19 then works Turn 20 then -  at some stage - might once again work Turn 18, i.e the resource rotates through a succession of diagrams.  These diagrams are far easier to put together but require extra work to decided which turn succeeds which in order to balance things like fuelling and servicing mileages as well as equating total mileage run across a fleet.

[BMacdermott]

Thanks Mike

 

I forgot you would be reading this!!

 

But I did put 'cyclic diagrams' in quotes to show that I was working through a cycle of workings. Sadly, my model railway room isn't as big as the WR!

 

Brian

[KingEdwardII]

7 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

Have I given you a headache??

Not at all - I think it is great that you have a layout that is capable of this level of modelling. For me, it's the actual running of trains that is the aim, the enjoyment. Having a layout that can properly model a busy mainline station is simply wonderful - but also a great challenge.

 

I think that with computer assistance and (semi)automation, it is now possible to have layouts of this kind at home that you can operate single handed, where previously it could only be achieved with club layouts with multiple folks operating. 

 

Yours, Mike.

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

Not at all - I think it is great that you have a layout that is capable of this level of modelling. For me, it's the actual running of trains that is the aim, the enjoyment. Having a layout that can properly model a busy mainline station is simply wonderful - but also a great challenge.

 

I think that with computer assistance and (semi)automation, it is now possible to have layouts of this kind at home that you can operate single handed, where previously it could only be achieved with club layouts with multiple folks operating. 

 

Yours, Mike.

You don't actually need a layout at all! Many moons ago I know that some of my signalling engineering colleagues used to while away their lunch hours "playing" with the signal box simulations that were coming on to the market at that time.

[KingEdwardII]

1 minute ago, St Enodoc said:

You don't actually need a layout at all!

True, but the actual physical appearance and movement of a model is a large part of the thrill and the enjoyment. Computer games can be very entertaining, of course, but they definitely lack the excitement of real physical action - and the beauty of well made models.

 

Of course, in these days of preservation, some might say that models are a limited version of reality and it is far better to "play trains" with the real things! And having driven the real King Edward II myself at Didcot, I can well appreciate this view of things. However, running your own model railway on a dark and wet winter's evening is a very pleasurable and fulfilling hobby, well worth the effort and expense to create.

 

Yours, Mike.

[TrevorP1]

19 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

True, but the actual physical appearance and movement of a model is a large part of the thrill and the enjoyment. Computer games can be very entertaining, of course, but they definitely lack the excitement of real physical action - and the beauty of well made models.

 

Of course, in these days of preservation, some might say that models are a limited version of reality and it is far better to "play trains" with the real things! And having driven the real King Edward II myself at Didcot, I can well appreciate this view of things. However, running your own model railway on a dark and wet winter's evening is a very pleasurable and fulfilling hobby, well worth the effort and expense to create.

 

Yours, Mike.

Over the 40 odd years I was involved in heritage railway work, both as a volunteer and paid staff, I loved working with the ‘hardware’ ( to be honest it was often a love/hate relationship!) but what always gave the most satisfaction was being part of the ‘railway family’ - a bond that is never broken.

 

My layout fulfils  many functions but among the primary ones is that I enjoy ‘the railway’, rather than one aspect of it.

 

As enjoyable as computer games might be they will never recreate that.

 

(Sorry if that’s a bit deep for 11:30 on a Tuesday night!).

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Now if you want a true cyclic diagam that is only the first part of it.  The second part starts with the Brit at the top, the third part starts with the County at the top and the fourth part starts with the (second 22XX) at the top and they all run simultaneously - which of course they can't.   So what actually happens in a cyclic diagram is that it is a complete diagram running over several days. which starts with Loco A on the first line on Monday, Loco B on the first line on Tuesday, Loco C on the first line on Wednesday. ... and so on.    So they are all working the same diagram but with each loco on a different leg of the diagram at the same time.  Thus a 5 day cyclic diagram will need 5 locos on it at any one time - but all working different parts of it.  On the WR the cyclic loco diagrams always noted at the top how many locos were required to cover the diagram.

 

Cyclic diagrams have the potential advantage of being potentially more productive and avoiding the need to work out where the resource next rotates to at the end of each days work because the work type and mileages can be balanced within the diagram.  But they are far more prone to falling apart in the event of loco failure or tran cancellation etc.

 

Ordinary rotational diagrams will mean the loco or coaches works Turn 18 then works Turn 19 then works Turn 20 then -  at some stage - might once again work Turn 18, i.e the resource rotates through a succession of diagrams.  These diagrams are far easier to put together but require extra work to decided which turn succeeds which in order to balance things like fuelling and servicing mileages as well as equating total mileage run across a fleet.

Unlike carriage workings WR loco diagrams, cyclic or otherwise, are like rocking-horse droppings. Does anybody have access to any or know someone who does?

[St Enodoc]

On 17/08/2021 at 18:53, bgman said:

 

When they do can you post some photos please ?

 

We won't tell, it'll be our little secret ! 

Here's one I made earlier:

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by St Enodoc
images restored

[acg5324]

7 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

You don't actually need a layout at all! Many moons ago I know that some of my signalling engineering colleagues used to while away their lunch hours "playing" with the signal box simulations that were coming on to the market at that time.

Siam? …….I used to like the Preston one with the loco changes.