What Does Hornby Benefit From Independent Retailers?

[PCW]

One recurring theme from the thread on Hornby selling direct is the desire to also see a good selection of proper model shop independent retailers who carry a good depth of stock from several different manufacturers. As well as selling over the counter in their bricks and mortar premises it is also generally desired these retailers have a good online facility. It is believed this type of retailing strengthens and supports the Hornby brand.

 

So, what exactly do independent retailers do for the customer (and thus the Hornby brand) that cannot be provided by Hornby selling direct?

 

 

[brianusa]

One must go back a few years when toy and model shops were one.  You could get anything from a dolls house to a Meccano set, a toy truck to a toy yacht; some of us may remember them.  Then things got complicated; there was a great separation when adults started getting interested in model railways and toy shops found they had a more sophisticated customer who wanted to supplement his train set with accessories and extra parts.  The demand meant even more accessories and models and more customers who didn't necessarily share the same interests.  So the conventional toy shop became a model shop and the younger set had toy shops of their own.  This evolved over the years until recently when the internet became a player where one purchased goods including trains.  In a lot of instances this has led to  model shop closures due to their inability to compete with the internets lower prices.

The problem with this is where does one obtain all the little things that shops once sold; wire, bulbs, glue and all the rest of things necessary for building the layout.  A lot of internet shops do sell these items but its not like nipping in on a Saturday afternoon and buying some extra track or carriage.  Or when you find you need extra points for a project!

 

Hornby may or may not benefit from this arrangement but they will continue to sell trains.  The loser is the modeller and the shop owner who relied on each other for the good of the hobby; all for the sake of a couple of bob!

 

Brian.

[Legend]

They(should)give them a good buying experience, suggest accessories and offer advice on operating and building trainsets , which will result in more revenue to Hornby, and the retailer. They will provide customer support in the event of something going wrong. That's for the trainset market. For the hobbyist they should be demonstrating Hornbys latest wares, and be able to test locos and demonstrate them before buying. In addition they give exposure to Hornby to someone who may just have wondered in for a bit of plasticard etc . Over on MREmag someone is complaining about the "long life can motor " on the K1 which will need replacing in event of failure, and yes Hornby refer to their 250 Service Dealers who will be able to do this.

 

So Hornby should appreciate their dealer network and independent retailer. Unfortunately I think recent evidence proves otherwise.

[steveb860]

 

So, what exactly do independent retailers do for the customer (and thus the Hornby brand) that cannot be provided by Hornby selling direct?

It may come as shock to you, but an awful lot of railway modellers prefer to shop at independent retailers than online.Also, a lot have not heard of rmweb, or any other internet forum, and so come to independent retailers to speak to the staff, most, if not all are themselves modellers, and seek advice. They then end up buying items they might not have previously known about or considered. There is also nothing better than browsing the wares in a shop, look at, touch and see running the latest K1 before buying.You can't do that online.  

[Andy Hayter]

What does Hornby get?

 

In a nutshell

1.  A very significant segment of their model railway sales

and

2.  The opportunity for cross brand selling - so a model railway customer may decide while in the shop, to buy some Humbrol paints, some glue and some brushes.  His son may see the Scalectrix and ask for that for Christmas.

[Andy Y]

Hornby gets a near-national network of showcases to display its products in a tangible form with normally knowledgeable and enthusiastic staff who have an interest in the sustainability and longevity of the brand through repeat sales, after sales support, ambassadors who can up-sell and cross-sell. Most work for next to nothing and their only sustenance is periodic visits from a rep and a pile of catalogues on the counter.

 

A good job the question wasn't asked the other way around (again).

[JohnMartin90125]

Hornby gets a near-national network of showcases to display its products in a tangible form with normally knowledgeable and enthusiastic staff who have an interest in the sustainability and longevity of the brand through repeat sales, after sales support, ambassadors who can up-sell and cross-sell. Most work for next to nothing and their only sustenance is periodic visits from a rep and a pile of catalogues on the counter.

 

A good job the question wasn't asked the other way around (again).

 

Do trade customers with Hornby trade accounts receive any of the catalogues for free though?  If memory serves (and it is from a good few years ago) Hornby catalogues from "that" wholesaler were around 2/3rds of the RRP and then if they didn't sell, the associated issues of unsold goods with a limited lifespan.  Nothing on a sale or return basis.

 

Plus some reps (not just model railways) are not knowledgable about what they sell.  Just pushy - and overly pushy sales reps aren't good.

 

As for the showcases themselves, that will be harder to fill now that ordering of one loco is to be done away with, they now must be at least two of a kind and then there are all the other problems with supply quantities, quality control issue that can be hard work for a retailer.

 

Anyone want to have a guess at how much a Hornby-branded display case costs?  The last price I saw was eye watering.

[Ryde-on-time]

As well as offering advise etc as mentioned above I think that a lot of model shops add value and options to Hornby models which are not avaliable direct. This includes thinks like fitting DCC decoders/sound, professional weathering and offering to take unwanted models as a trade in

[Richard Lee]

I can only tell my own experience; I have no idea whether or not it is relevant to any other people.

 

I have been a wargamer for a few years now.  Nearly 3 years ago, I was looking for items to use to make wargaming scenery.  I knew that railway modellers also use similar items, so I started looking at the websites of a few model shops that tended to do a lot of model railway stuff.  I couldn't help noticing that some of the locomotives and rolling stock seemed very nice.  The idea gradually grew that perhaps I might like to have a go at doing a small model railway.  My brother has been a railway modeller for nearly all his life, so I did know of things like shunting planks, and branch line terminus to fiddle yard layouts.  I decided what I liked that seemed to be reasonable value for money for a beginner, and plucked up courage to order a Hornby Terrier, Maunsell Brake Composite, a few goods wagons, track and a controller.  Everything except the controller was Hornby.

 

Since then, I have tended to move away from Hornby, and buy other firms' goods.  I prefer certain other companies' goods wagons, and I have a definite preference for better track.

 

The point is that unless I was already a railway modeller, I wouldn't have looked at the Hornby website.  If the model shops had had Bachmann, Dapol, DJM, Oxford Rail etc but no Hornby, then I may well have tried the other manufacturers' products to start off with.

[jjb1970]

As others have said, what do you do when you want:

 

adhesives

paints

brushes

ballast

track pins

scatter material

trackside accessories

fishplates

replacement wheels

 

And 1001 other things which are part and parcel of modelling. Yes, you can get most of this stuff on-line (and some from artists shops) but you can't realise you made a mistake and are a few fishplates short or a bag of ballast short on a Friday evening and just nip back to the shop so you can finish off a few model jobs over the weekend.

[Wicor Models]

Do trade customers with Hornby trade accounts receive any of the catalogues for free though?  If memory serves (and it is from a good few years ago) Hornby catalogues from "that" wholesaler were around 2/3rds of the RRP and then if they didn't sell, the associated issues of unsold goods with a limited lifespan.  Nothing on a sale or return basis.

 

Plus some reps (not just model railways) are not knowledgable about what they sell.  Just pushy - and overly pushy sales reps aren't good.

 

As for the showcases themselves, that will be harder to fill now that ordering of one loco is to be done away with, they now must be at least two of a kind and then there are all the other problems with supply quantities, quality control issue that can be hard work for a retailer.

 

Anyone want to have a guess at how much a Hornby-branded display case costs?  The last price I saw was eye watering.

 

As a retailer I get 1 of each of the Hornby group catalogues to be used as a shop reference copy.  After that it is down to us to decide how many to order and buy because any left over at the end of the year are virtually worthless and we have had to pay for them.  No sale or return in this business.  As for the reps I can say that all of the Hornby reps I have dealt with and come into contact with over the last 20 years are very aware that product knowledge is key, that said they are not necessarily modellers and often ask us retailers for help and advice if the don't know the answers themselves.

As others have said, what do you do when you want:

 

adhesives

paints

brushes

ballast

track pins

scatter material

trackside accessories

fishplates

replacement wheels

 

And 1001 other things which are part and parcel of modelling. Yes, you can get most of this stuff on-line (and some from artists shops) but you can't realise you made a mistake and are a few fishplates short or a bag of ballast short on a Friday evening and just nip back to the shop so you can finish off a few model jobs over the weekend.

Good answer but we cannot survive on those bits and pieces alone.  We need to sell 2 or 3 train sets plus a dozen or so locos every week to enable us to survive, which is why most shops these days are very competetively priced with the internet.  I appreciate that there are some areas are without a local model shop so the internet is a lifeline but scarcely a week goes by without someone coming into the shop with a problem item bought from an internet store.

 

Answering the original poster's question Hornby gains several hundred enthusiastic model shop owners, hundreds of square feet of shelf space displaying the Hornby logo and a steady revenue stream from products sold.

[locoholic]

 

So, what exactly do independent retailers do for the customer (and thus the Hornby brand) that cannot be provided by Hornby selling direct?

 

1. You are almost always buying from someone who knows more about trains and customer service than Hornby seem to.

 

2. You can see the item before you purchase, rather than relying on a Photoshopped image.

 

3. You are interacting with a real person, which is what thousands of years of evolution has equipped you to do.

 

Of course, all the above assume that you are able to visit a shop, which I realise is not always possible, sadly, and Hornby's current policy is likely to make that even harder in the future.

 

Personally, I will never buy direct from Hornby unless it is some Collector's Club item which I really want (the restored LSWR T9 is the only such model so far). Ironically, Hornby's lack of awareness of their customer's interests means they even miss out on this kind of revenue, unlike Bachmann. Items they might have done include:

 

Class 31s in various uncommon liveries.

Weathered Britannia, de-named, or in unlined green.

28xx in GWR wartime black.

County of Chester with buffer-beam number as seen on farewell railtours.

Any number of "celebrity" Castles, incl. Pendennis pre or post restoration

Sir Nigel Gresley as running in blue on the mainline in 1967.

etc., etc.

['CHARD]

 

Ironically, Hornby's lack of awareness of their customer's interests means they even miss out on this kind of revenue, unlike Bachmann. Items they might have done include:

 

Class 31s in various uncommon liveries.

Weathered Britannia, de-named, or in unlined green.

28xx in GWR wartime black.

County of Chester with buffer-beam number as seen on farewell railtours.

Any number of "celebrity" Castles, incl. Pendennis pre or post restoration

Sir Nigel Gresley as running in blue on the mainline in 1967.

etc., etc.

 

Ironically, maybe Hornby has considered any or all of these, and dismissed them because a) they would compound existing delivery problems, or b ) demand projections for such rarefied or 'uncommon' liveries and decal combinations did not support further product development.  

[black and decker boy]

As others have said, what do you do when you want:

 

My answers as devils advocate

 

adhesives - general adhesives from DIY store. Model specifics from an exhibition (still a model shop just not always local)

paints - exhibitions or mail order

brushes - Amazon or local craft store

ballast - mail order / exhibitions depending on type needed.

track pins - I use glue

scatter material - almost exclusively mail order as I want specific types (static grass) or bespoke types (continental plant kits) not sold widely

trackside accessories - bit of everything, local shop, internet & exhibitions

fishplates - I use dropper wires

replacement wheels - I only use 2 types, neither sold by retailers commonly so its mail order or exhibitions.

 

.

I am a finescale modeller so not necessarily representative of grass roots but my main purchases from a "local" model shop are RTR items. Detail parts, paint, scenery etc tend to be picked up shows or from mail order / internet as quite a lot are from cottage industry suppliers who only sell that way.

 

In reference to the OP though, as others have said, Hornby get a wide network of enthusiastic advertising space/ salesmen whom take the risk on items selling fast / slow. That said, there will be a segment of Hornbys market that DO NOT use independent shops (they buy from toy stores, Argos etc) and for which a Hornby Website purchase can be easier. There are also the youth of today for whom Internet shopping is the norm and who will shop around online for best deals and for many of which, a fully stocked model shop with tea and chat may be just a story from Dad / Grandad. There aren't necessarily many such shops in the big suburbs nor out of town shopping malls so exposure will be limited.

 

The other thing missed in these debates is that the "local" model shops also attend exhibitions. Loose the shops and you start to loose RTR trade support for shows. That is very quickly a never ending circle, less trade = less shows = less entrants to the hobby.

[sawyermodels]

Last year we received from Bachmann: 2x Bachmann 2014 & 2x Graham Farish 2014 catalogues free of charge which we happily let customers thumb through before the actual catalogues arrived as it allowed us to order specific items from the ranges that customers wanted.

Hornby didn't send us any 2014 catalogues for shop use and as a result we had to take some out of stock to use in the shop when they came into stock. It also made ordering difficult as we didn't know what specific products customers wanted as there was nothing for them to thumb through before orders were placed. I know they announce their range on the website but some of my customers do not have the internet and reply on the catalogue to see the range available for the year. 

We hope that this year Hornby will send us one copy for shop use. 

[The Stationmaster]

So, what exactly do independent retailers do for the customer (and thus the Hornby brand) that cannot be provided by Hornby selling direct?

Provide customer feedback into their reps which goes into Hornby's future product planning and provides information about customer satisfaction etc which produces results in what Hornby bring to the market.

Don't forget that Hornby were introducing new items long before internet wishlists - what they did was at least based on retailer feedback of what their customers said they wanted.  and unlike internet wishlists that sort of feedback was filtered by both the retailer and the rep. 

[jjb1970]

Model shops are unlikely to be viable businesses if only surviving on the small ticket stuff, if they do not have a share of the big ticket stuff then they'll end up folding I think. As has been said by a few others, it really is a case of use them or lose them. Ask a lot of plastic kit makers if they now wish they'd done a bit more to support their former local model shops after they went mail order to buy most of their kits hoping the local shops would still be there for paints, adhesives etc. And this is also important to the manufacturers, the attractiveness of a hobby relies to some extent on people having access to the items associated with the hobby, if people find it a pain to get the things they need to go beyond an oval on a carpet to a real layout it'll have implications for the hobby, and not just the trainset segment. I think another factor at play here is that love or loath them the hobby needs larger integrated suppliers providing a complete range, manufacturers like Hornby and Bachmann in the UK market. Those smaller suppliers offering great locomotives and such like benefit from piggy backing to some degree on the full range suppliers I think. So to me there is a symbiotic relationship between manufacturer, retailer and modeller which benefits all of us (apologies for slipping into managementese there...)

[ruggedpeak]

It may come as shock to you, but an awful lot of railway modellers prefer to shop at independent retailers than online.Also, a lot have not heard of rmweb, or any other internet forum, and so come to independent retailers to speak to the staff, most, if not all are themselves modellers, and seek advice. They then end up buying items they might not have previously known about or considered. There is also nothing better than browsing the wares in a shop, look at, touch and see running the latest K1 before buying.You can't do that online.  

 

Look at the N Gauge Pendolino project, one thing that seems to have come out is that despite a good web campaign and attending shows and being on forums, they keep finding significant numbers of modellers who've never heard of the project. Presumably the ones who don't use the interweb, Facebook, or much else and go to shops to buy stuff. There appears, anecdotally, to be a huge number of people in the hobby who don't use these things, but who must get their stuff from somewhere.

 

Hornby gets a near-national network of showcases to display its products in a tangible form with normally knowledgeable and enthusiastic staff who have an interest in the sustainability and longevity of the brand through repeat sales, after sales support, ambassadors who can up-sell and cross-sell. Most work for next to nothing and their only sustenance is periodic visits from a rep and a pile of catalogues on the counter.

 

A good job the question wasn't asked the other way around (again).

And retailers pay for advertising with Hornby logos and products in.......

[PCW]

Do trade customers with Hornby trade accounts receive any of the catalogues for free though?  If memory serves (and it is from a good few years ago) Hornby catalogues from "that" wholesaler were around 2/3rds of the RRP and then if they didn't sell, the associated issues of unsold goods with a limited lifespan.  Nothing on a sale or return basis.

<snip>

 

Anyone want to have a guess at how much a Hornby-branded display case costs?  The last price I saw was eye watering.

Blimy, you mean retailers have to pay for a Hornby display case to promote the brand? I'd have thought Hornby would have been glad of the free shop space provided, supplied the showcase free of charge and encourage the retailer to buy some trains to put in it!  Does it work like this for all ranges of goods a shop decides to take on board, you see all sorts of branded stands, does the shop have to buy them all? 

 

Catalog companies seem to have a business model that works by printing loads of catalogs and posting them free of charge to anyone with an interest, surely a supply of free catalogs to shops would be a good idea for handing out to as many people as possible?

[jjb1970]

I think there is a difference between not taking an interest in on-line forums and not using the Internet. I know plenty of modellers who do not bother with on-line forums but who use the Internet and shop on-line.

[Dunsignalling]

A lot of it is the 80% (or so, probably higher) of the market who buy small trains in OO cos they are shiny and look pretty - Dont knock these people, they are the ones whose buying power will keep your nicely detailed, models under (say) £300 a pop nad nmake all the other lil bits and pieces worthwhile...

 

I've said it many, many times, but people on here do soooo over-estimate the "modeller market" for these products.

If that is truly the case, why are Hornby's next four scheduled locomotives all small and black (three of them unlined and with no prototypical basis for shininess, to boot)?

 

John

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

A lot of it is the 80% (or so, probably higher) of the market who buy small trains in OO cos they are shiny and look pretty - Dont knock these people, they are the ones whose buying power will keep your nicely detailed, models under (say) £300 a pop nad nmake all the other lil bits and pieces worthwhile...

 

I've said it many, many times, but people on here do soooo over-estimate the "modeller market" for these products.

If that is truly the case, why are Hornby's next four scheduled locomotives all small and black (three of them unlined and with no prototypical basis for shininess, to boot)?

 

Hornby already have a more than adequate stockpile of tooling for the shiny pretty things, which I bet they are churning away; while also introducing lovely small unlined black loco models at premium prices for those who want such items. Satisfying multiple market sectors simultaneously and all that.

 

I am definitely in the 'better to have decent bricks and mortar presence' camp. I couldn't begin to count the number of 'how to' conversations I have heard to help a customer get his model working in some respect, which will probably lead to many repeat sales when netted out over the years.

[Peter Bedding]

Goodwill is almost impossible to quantify, and at a time when High Street outlets are seen as optional by the national chains, and an inefficient source of revenue by local authorities, it is no wonder that the number of Independent Retailers has diminished almost to the point of extinction. But goodwill is a real factor in the retail market; Bachby et al would be ill-advised if they only listened to their grey-faced bean-counters. And the wheel turns full circle.

 

My local Indie, (H******d H**t), sadly went to the wall some four or five years ago. I can still source a lot of my needs online. My internet suppliers and village postie have not let me down, but I would happily turn back the clock. Life and living is about people, not telephones and certainly not keyboards (that do not wish to spel propa).

 

So for me, the answer to the exam question is a no-brainer. If you wish to sell to people, create a network that will keep you face to face with your customer. And the retail counter is still one of the best ways of doing just that.

 

 

PB

[Jeff Smith]

An interesting discussion. I understand the need for model shops to sell plenty of big ticket items to remain viable. I also recognize my own unhelpful behavior in the eighties when I lived in the UK and would browse model shops for hours and end up purchasing some minor cheap accessory. Or to checkout a new model and then mail order for a lot less. This of course pertains to consumer items of all kinds, ie TV's, cars, etc. hence the demise of many high street shops of all types.

 

I've lived in the US since 1988. Modelling British outline has it's challenges. Obviously there are essential items that must be ordered from the UK but for general supplies, glues, paint, wire, scenic items, etc, local sources can be found - a mixture of Hobby Shops, Do It Yourself shops and on-line purchases. In many cases, and I'm thinking common to everywhere, stock limitations mean that only the 'runners' are held so on-line purchase is the only option to get what you want. This is the Amazon model, now being duplicated by big B & M stores like Wal-Mart where many items are available only on-line, in some cases with free shipping. You get used to waiting to get what you want.

 

But to return to the original question, it seems that Hornby do not make it easy for model shops to help them. I would have thought that loaned display cases and not-for-sale samples would be part of Hornby's sales plan. Even a sale-or-return scheme with an online fire sale.....hang on, haven't I heard of that already!

[ruggedpeak]

I still think the nearest comparison remains book stores. People spend hours wandering around browsing bookshops, yet some of them are surviving (back to coffee shops, events etc). You need a business model that is able to extract cash from browsers, and simple product on shelves isn't it.

 

Tesco have the same issue - footfall has been constant despite their problems and the interweb, but punters are spending less. Tesco have lost the art of retailing, focusing instead on shafting suppliers, collapsing railway tunnels, losing money with online movies and the tiny proportion of their sales that are web based. They need to get back to selling more baked beans, not Hornby locos online.

 

Hornby would also be wise to review their strategy in light of the travails of the supermarkets, Amazon's increasingly uncertain position, the slow shift to covenience, the sudden halt of ebook growth etc etc. The internet is no longer IMHO the future. There are a series of reasons why, from history to natural cycles to privacy, hacking etc, that the whole internet thing is running out of steam (see what I did there!). Growth in key bits of the internet is slowing. The internet is not going away but it is no longer the next big thing. IT was the next big thing. We have already had Web 2.0, which was a huge damp squib.

 

Internet and direct is part of their mix, and I like what is happening with the Collectors Club (e.g. digitial version) but normal retail is, in the future, still going to be the dominant sales channel IMHO (although I don't have any figures to back it up).