RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted July 10, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 10, 2017 I have been following this with interest and amusement. I hope you like these photos Mikkel. From my collection, glass negative I won on Ebay. Regards, Craig W Both from lot 99 - the first lot with wider footplate (to use the correct technical term) and S4 boiler. No. 2455 has gained an S2 boiler and both have gained the extended smokebox. Both have tenders with coal rails but I think in No. 2458's case not yet plated. No. 2455 provides a good view of the cab and a rare view of the RHS of an S2-boilered engine. Not much evidence of livery apart from No. 2458's tender! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) Craig, They are very nice. Here is the first one with the scratches removed (I hope you do not mind). I think it may be at Worcester. Tony Edited July 10, 2017 by Rail-Online 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Lovely pics, Craig. Both locos are unlined. Which reminds me of a big hole in gwr.org.uk liveries I'm not sure how to fill... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northroader Posted July 10, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 10, 2017 That is possibly because the centre lamp over the buffer beam was not introduced until later possibly 1903 probably to do with the RCH standards introduced then. The 1885 headcodes did show that a centre buffer beam placing was needed for some codes, so there would be a socket there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigw Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 These are the other two that I have. 2358 is one of the narrow footplate types and still has the Armstrong tender. 2537 is one of the later, wide footplate locos. Incidentally, the Finney instructions do a good job at explaining the differences in the various lots and also recommend working from a photograph. If you make a bad gaff with one of them you did not read the instructions properly! Regards, Craig PS: Thanks for the clean up on the scan. It was on my to do list for one day.... 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) Ok Craig, , As you don't mind here is the second one lightened up and a few scratches removed. They are small size files (due to RMWeb requirements) so I cannot do much more with them. The first one still retains its GWR worksplate, the driver is standing in front of the splasher on 2458 but I think it might just be present too. Tony Edited July 10, 2017 by Rail-Online 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 ... and I thought the '517' class was complicated 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 A crazy thought, prompted by the manner in which the crews are posed in front of their engines, about the possible photographer of Craig's glass plates - Bill Kenning? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigw Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 A crazy thought, prompted by the manner in which the crews are posed in front of their engines, about the possible photographer of Craig's glass plates - Bill Kenning? 2455 was fitted with an S2 boiler in October 1904 and a B4in July 1908. 2358 was fitted with an S4 in February 1905 and a B4 in July 1908. 2538 was fitted with a B4 in January 1907. If the photos were all taken at the same time (I suspect they were) then they are from 1905 - 1906. Was bill Kenning active then? Regards, Craig W Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted July 10, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) Is the Oxford platform metal or plastic? Metal. There is actually not much overhang on the Oxford model. Removing it would leave the impression of no overhang at all. I have been following this with interest and amusement. I hope you like these photos Mikkel. From my collection, glass negative I won on Ebay. Regards, Craig W Magnificent photos Craig! What a feast for the eyes. Thanks very much (once again). The pictures must be quite unique, good thing they were bought by someone with a real interest. I received the "Dean - greatest of them all" book with the post this morning, which also has some superb photos but none in the 2451-2491 series. No. 2455 has gained an S2 boiler 2455 was fitted with an S2 boiler in October 1904 and a B4in July 1908 So, theoretically, it would have been painted in the pre-1905 livery when receiving the S2 boiler. Lovely pics, Craig. Both locos are unlined. Which reminds me of a big hole in gwr.org.uk liveries I'm not sure how to fill... Looking at the enlarged, cleaned up version (thanks Rail-Online), I think there is boiler band lining? Edit: On No. 2455, I mean. Edited July 10, 2017 by Mikkel 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 If the photos were all taken at the same time (I suspect they were) then they are from 1905 - 1906. Was bill Kenning active then? We don't know. His 1913-21 glass plates were discovered only because they were being used as cloches in someone's vegetable garden (if my recollection of Adrian Vaughan's book foreword is correct). There may have been other plates. Looking at the enlarged, cleaned up version (thanks Rail-Online), I think there is boiler band lining? Edit: On No. 2455, I mean. I don't think so, it's just normal stuff either side of the second boiler band crease. The loco looks to be in a reasonable state (see chimney, and brass band twixt boiler and smokebox), and I can't see any trace of lining on the cab or the tender. We know "saddle tanks were normally unlettered and unlined after 1906". (Apart from a few specials, there were no panniers at that time.) All other tank engines were side tanks, and were 'passenger' classes, and thus qualified for lining post 1906. What I don't know is, in respect of pre-1922: - when the minor passenger classes (Metros, small Prairies, 517s etc) started to lose their lining; - when goods engines ceased to be lined. If Craig's '1905-1906' notion is correct (and I can't fault the logic), then we have 4 DGs where lining ceased to be applied after their S2/S4 boiler fitting. Which puts cessation of lining for goods engines back to 1904. Hmmmm. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikesndbs Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Brilliant thread and very brave modeling! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) Just to be consistent I have cleaned up the other two (not that they needed much). Note the bridge Rail in the foreground Tony Edited July 10, 2017 by Rail-Online 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ChrisN Posted July 10, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2017 While everyone has been looking at the engines, I have been looking at the loco crew's uniforms. On the 'GWR Modelling' site it states that 'White Fustian' for drivers was abandoned in 1855, and that in 1863 all grades, except porters, uniform colours changed to dark blue. Now there is at least one fustian jacket in the pictures, and the jacket and trousers do not match and there appears to be a white pair of trousers as well. (Dirty white that is.) My assumption is that loco crew were not heavily regulated as to what they wore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassey Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Mikkel If you would be happy with the GREAT WESTERN on the tender, then 2458 as pictured fits the bill. What is also distinctive here, in these images, is the brass ring between the boiler and smokebox. Peter 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Mikkel If you would be happy with the GREAT WESTERN on the tender, then 2458 as pictured fits the bill. What is also distinctive here, in these images, is the brass ring between the boiler and smokebox. Peter Just be sure you hammer the dent in the dome in the correct place 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northroader Posted July 10, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) With the enginemens clothing, it is possible that with repeated washing, the colours would fade to a much lighter shade. Getting the dirt out involved boiling water and caustic soaps, more recent industrial clothing schemes used dry cleaning, where such things as denim stayed dark. Then again, I'm not too sure how widespread the use of denim had become for this period. I'd caution against taking the lighter shades to be fustian, although it is a possibility. The other thing is no one is wearing a uniform cap, they're all plain cloth caps. Edited July 10, 2017 by Northroader Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted July 10, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2017 If Craig's '1905-1906' notion is correct (and I can't fault the logic), then we have 4 DGs where lining ceased to be applied after their S2/S4 boiler fitting. Which puts cessation of lining for goods engines back to 1904. Hmmmm. Intriguing. Just to be the devil's advocate, here is 2467 at Weymouth in 1905-1906 (this photo was discussed on Dave's blog some years ago): https://picclick.co.uk/Victorian-Edwardian-Gwr-Steam-Locomotive-No-2467-Rp-391739764052.html#&gid=1&pid=1 My assumption is that loco crew were not heavily regulated as to what they wore. The other thing is no one is wearing a uniform cap, they're all plain cloth caps. I've always found it a bit strange that crews in the Victorian and Edwardian period seem to have worn head gear and sometimes also vests etc of their own while on the job. Surely at that time people would have been very mindful of not ruining their private clothes? But maybe the railway simply did not provide them with adequate clothes. (Have we discussed this before? I can't find it though). Mikkel If you would be happy with the GREAT WESTERN on the tender, then 2458 as pictured fits the bill. What is also distinctive here, in these images, is the brass ring between the boiler and smokebox. Peter It does indeed, and I don't want to seem obstinate or ungrateful - but I really would like a lined model. Perhaps the best option is simply to shorten the smokebox, as that gives me more options for the pre-1905 monogram livery. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgman Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Just a thought my friend .... That said, there are some interesting items being discussed here ! 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted July 10, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) Thanks for the warning Grahame, definetely always a risk in modelling The discussion has it's own life though, of interest in itself I think. Speaking of smokeboxes, today I attacked the Oxford Rail smokebox to remove the rivets and remains of the chimney. It used to look like this: And below is what is has been reduced to. The chimney is actually a separate item, glued very firmly into a recess in the smokebox. An alternative option would have been to remove the chimney and fill the void with putty, but I decided to leave it in and sand it down. Still a bit of work to do - especially if I'm going to cut the whole smokebox back to a short one... The excellent photos uploaded by Craig made me wonder about an S2 boilered version with dome on the front ring. Perhaps of interest to Stephen, who is considering an S2. The dome was temporarily nicked off my old Finney 3232 class. And below in S4 condition. The levitating dome was sometimes observed in engine sheds at night in the years following Dean's death. It only happened during a full moon. Some say it was Dean, expressing his frustrations with Churward's designs from beyond the grave. Edited July 10, 2017 by Mikkel 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) Intriguing. Just to be the devil's advocate, here is 2467 at Weymouth in 1905-1906 (this photo was discussed on Dave's blog some years ago): https://picclick.co.uk/Victorian-Edwardian-Gwr-Steam-Locomotive-No-2467-Rp-391739764052.html#&gid=1&pid=1 No need to be devil's advocate, Mikkel, I remember that discussion well, and I'm acutely aware of the livery conundrum we now have - a bunch of 1905 DGs parading around in both lined and unlined forms. Was Churchward winning or losing a battle with his recalcitrant paintshops? Or was everyone undecided whether they were 'goods' engines or 'passenger' engines? And I'm beginning to doubt whether Oxford's infamous 2309 was lined, especially after 1913 when it got its topfeed. Edited July 11, 2017 by Miss Prism 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted July 11, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 11, 2017 And I'm beginning to doubt whether Oxford's infamous 2309 was lined, especially after 1913 when it got its topfeed. In that case, it has the garter but no lining. Like 2458 in Craig's photo above (there is a faint garter if you enlarge the cleaned up photo). Interesting! Looking at the "Dean greatest of them all" book by Jeremy Clements, there are other indications of a lack of lining on some DGs around this time, while others clearly have it. So what have we got so far for 1900-1905/6 ish: *Lined with early monogram *Lined with "Great-garter-Western" *Unlined with "Great-garter-Western" *Unlined with "Great-space-Western" *Unlined and no lettering? (2351 in the Clements book?) 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigw Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 These are not Dean goods, so forgive the distraction (oh look.. a unicorn....) I thought I would put these up to round things out. they are the final two negatives that I won and they date from the same time. The lining can clearly be seen so i think it is fairly safe to assume that the Dean goods in the photographs are unlined. These would make lovely models too Mikkel, just sayin...... 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 11, 2017 Another interesting point on the photos is the lamp irons. The GWR officially moved from the plug type in 1903 but it obviously took time to move to the new pattern of iron and the socket type still appeared on new build engines in 1904. But the important point is that it seems the lamp irons were supposedly updated when locos were shopped for overhaul and this would - I would expect - include shopping at which boilers were changed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Mikkel - S4 domes are always larger than the S2 ones as far as I can tell. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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