Ferrybridge Power Station to Close

[jjb1970]

The efficiency of power stations is very variable and depends on quite a few variables, in particular the means of power generation and whether it is a simple power station or a combined heat and power plant. A simple biomass plant without a CHP heat take off will be about 35% efficient. A modern coal plant in the same configuration will be 40-45% efficient. Combined cycle gas turbine power plants are much more efficient and even without CHP heat take off will be heading towards 60% and higher. With CHP heat take off efficiencies are much higher (possibly 80% + if you can get the heat balance right). Where diesels are used (invariably gas fuelled in power generation) then a modern diesel is around 50% efficient without CHP heat take off, much higher in a CHP configuration.

[APOLLO]

Climatologists are predicting an El Nino event this year, which probably means a very cold winter in the UK in 2015/6.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-32815460

 

We (UK) have been lucky to scrape through the last few winters with electricity / gas grids running just about flat out, supply just about meeting demand with little reserve at times. One cold winter's day our luck will run out, even with the industrial "interuptable" loads off.

 

Without being repetitive, a lot has previously been discussed on the Didcot power station thread here

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69666-the-end-of-didcot-power-station-a-look-at-the-trains-that-served-it/page-8

 

Brit15

[beast66606]

I know a place where a lot of hot air is generated.

[Fat Controller]

Im quite well versed (for a layman) in Heat and Power (my dad was a bit good at it!) and a demand of 1 KW/h really does sound like a bad case of government sky pixie thinking (or lack of)....

 

Like I said we need energy from somewhere, or there will be a lot of very cold people very soon.

The technology does exist for energy consumption at this sort of level, with things like triple-glazing, very heavy insulation of roof-spaces, heat-recovery from air being ventilated out of the building and so on, but it's the sort of thing that has to be designed in from new. I doubt if much of it can be retro-fitted to a lot of our ageing housing stock.

[raymw]

You'll have to wear more jumpers, and thermal undies. fwiw  I'd like to see an 'official statement' referring to the the 1kWh domestic limit. Anyway, if you have a 3kw kettle, you can boil water in say, 3 minutes, so you've used 3kW for 3 minutes. 1 kWh is the same as 60kW for one minute, or 20 kW for 3 minutes. So,  provided you're using nothing else, you could boil your kettle 6 or so times every hour,  without exceeding 1kWh.

 

If the 1kWh is spread over the whole  year, that's 8760 units per annum; at the moment  I'm using about 6000 kWh per annum so I'll need to make more coffee.

[JeffP]

What you mean is that a current kettle will be an inadequate tool to boil water. A 3 kW oven will not be the right tool to cook a chicken. Think again too about opening windows for fresh air in the winter. There are lots of positive solutions but you have to think back to your physics lessons.

Well, of course, but if the kettle is less than 1kW, it just takes longer to boil, using the same amount of energy in the end and annoying the HELL out of the users in  the meantime. Fifteen minutes to make a cuppa, anyone? We are worse off than when we all had ranges, trust me..........and I AM old enough to remember.

 

In the end, what the HELL is the point? The EC has already limited the size of a vacuum cleaner motor..WHY??????? The greens will have us all living by candlelight yet.

 

And they made us all change to Fluorescent bulbs...and as for THAT one, no-one will EVER convince me money didn't change hands.

 

Now, having got us to go from 60W down to 11W, they are, quite rightly, having a LOT of difficulty getting us to pay £7+ to save another 4W by going LED.

By my reckoning, it would take most folk an AWFUL long time to make back  the price of the bulb, even if it was a) the right colour light, and b) left on all day every day.

 

It's all getting rather silly now, isn't it?

[APOLLO]

Oh you ain't seen nothing yet !!!!!

 

Wait till we all have "smart" meters, and associated frequency controlled fridges / washing machines etc. This is done by the frequency (normally 50Hz) reducing at peak electrical demand and sensors inbuilt into appliances will render them unusable until the frequency rises to a set level (demand drops). Not yet in operation / production - but very simple to do and it may / will be rolled out soon. Dynamic demand its known as - read links below.

 

The aim is to inhibit the use of "non essential" appliances (fridges, washing machines) in peak load times (say 5pm to 7pm). I think your kettle will be OK - but buy a standby one for the gas hob !!!

 

Frequency varies from minute to minute as a function of supply & demand, the aim of the National Grid control room is to have an overall average of 50Hz, over (say) a period of 24 hours (I don't know the exact figure). Info here

 

http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm

 

http://www2.nationalgrid.com/UK/Industry-information/Electricity-transmission-operational-data/Data-explorer/

 

http://www2.nationalgrid.com/uk/services/balancing-services/frequency-response/

 

Amazing the future ain't it !!!

 

Brit15

[Fat Controller]

Oh you ain't seen nothing yet !!!!!

 

Wait till we all have "smart" meters, and associated frequency controlled fridges / washing machines etc. This is done by the frequency (normally 50Hz) reducing at peak electrical demand and sensors inbuilt into appliances will render them unusable until the frequency rises to a set level (demand drops). Not yet in operation / production - but very simple to do and it may / will be rolled out soon. Dynamic demand its known as - read links below.

 

The aim is to inhibit the use of "non essential" appliances (fridges, washing machines) in peak load times (say 5pm to 7pm). I think your kettle will be OK - but buy a standby one for the gas hob !!!

 

Frequency varies from minute to minute as a function of supply & demand, the aim of the National Grid control room is to have an overall average of 50Hz, over (say) a period of 24 hours (I don't know the exact figure). Info here

 

http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm

 

http://www2.nationalgrid.com/UK/Industry-information/Electricity-transmission-operational-data/Data-explorer/

 

http://www2.nationalgrid.com/uk/services/balancing-services/frequency-response/

 

Amazing the future ain't it !!!

 

Brit15

It must have been twenty years ago when my friends in Beaujolais signed up for a load-shedding deal with EDF, where their supply would be reduced during periods of peak demand. It probably seemed a good deal during the summer months, when they'd be working in the vines until it was dark; less so when harvest came, and thirty hungry workers had to be fed from a cooker running at half-power...

[newbryford]

Problem solved....

 

Nerd power

 

Maybe we could harness the heat given off by a DCC sound decoder as well.........

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Rudders]

Page 2 and still no pictures of trains going to the power station. Surely someone on here can oblige...

[ParkeNd]

You'll have to wear more jumpers, and thermal undies. fwiw  I'd like to see an 'official statement' referring to the the 1kWh domestic limit. Anyway, if you have a 3kw kettle, you can boil water in say, 3 minutes, so you've used 3kW for 3 minutes. 1 kWh is the same as 60kW for one minute, or 20 kW for 3 minutes. So,  provided you're using nothing else, you could boil your kettle 6 or so times every hour,  without exceeding 1kWh.

 

If the 1kWh is spread over the whole  year, that's 8760 units per annum; at the moment  I'm using about 6000 kWh per annum so I'll need to make more coffee.

It's not the average consumption - it's PEAK. So no more than 1 kW hr at any time.

[raymw]

'1 kW hr at any time' is meaningless. Please give a link to the actual documentation.

[jjb1970]

Surely a peak rate of consumption would be KW, not KWHr? The amount of energy needed to raisse the temperature of a given volume of water by x degrees is independent of kettle technology, whilst some kettles will be more efficient than others the energy required by the water won't change according to kettle technology. Given that the real variable that can slash consumption is to boil less water then the easiest way to save energy is to just boil what you need and not a full kettle to fill one cup.

[sir douglas]

my uncle worked there as a turbine engineer with Multitech

[runs as required]

To me, these are the cathedrals of the mid/late 20th century.

Le Corbusier thought the very same.

 

Jane Drew used to tell the story of him travelling down with her and Max Fry from Darlington to London after staying in their cottage in Tessdale and seeing the earlier towers under construction (must have been a Sunday diversion down the Swinton & Knottingley Joint).

He asked what they were and when Jane explained, he coined your label and 'borrowed' the form for the Legislature Palace in Chandigargh.India the new city the threesome were working on in the early 1950s.

dhig

[PinzaC55]

Telegraph article here, future energy security does not look good.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/energy/11618253/Britain-at-greater-risk-of-blackouts-as-SSE-closes-Ferrybridge-coal-plant.html

 

Brit15

 

According to this article on the Institute Of Mechanical Engineers, if we keep using oil at the rate we are and assuming no major new discoveries there are 40 years of oil left on the Earth. I wish I could live for another 40 years and see roads and motorways with weeds growing on them and the authorities scrambling to reopen railways and electrify them     http://www.imeche.org/knowledge/themes/energy/energy-supply/fossil-energy/when-will-oil-run-out

[APOLLO]

Every year BP produce a world energy statistical review. It is used by governments & industry worldwide as a standard. Here is the 2014 one.

 

http://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/about-bp/energy-economics/statistical-review-of-world-energy.html

 

You need to look at the review per energy type

 

http://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/about-bp/energy-economics/statistical-review-of-world-energy/review-by-energy-type.html

 

Pick oil

 

http://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/about-bp/energy-economics/statistical-review-of-world-energy/review-by-energy-type/oil.html

 

Pick oil reserves

 

http://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/about-bp/energy-economics/statistical-review-of-world-energy/review-by-energy-type/oil/oil-reserves.html

 

And there you have it, the info as best known.

Total world proved oil reserves reached 1687.9 billion barrels at the end of 2013

Sufficient to meet 53.3 years of global production. The largest additions to reserves came from Russia, adding 900 million barrels and Venezuela adding 800 million barrels. OPEC members continue to hold the majority of reserves, accounting for 71.9% of the global total. South & Central America continues to hold the highest R/P ratio. Over the past decade, global proved reserves have increased by 27%, or over 350 billion barrels

 

This varies year on year as new reserves are found, and demand fluctuates. Of course its a guestimate, but the best we have. Info for Gas, Coal Nuclear etc all is there.

 

Brit15

[PinzaC55]

Every year BP produce a world energy statistical review. It is used by governments & industry worldwide as a standard. Here is the 2014 one.

 

http://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/about-bp/energy-economics/statistical-review-of-world-energy.html

 

You need to look at the review per energy type

 

http://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/about-bp/energy-economics/statistical-review-of-world-energy/review-by-energy-type.html

 

Pick oil

 

http://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/about-bp/energy-economics/statistical-review-of-world-energy/review-by-energy-type/oil.html

 

Pick oil reserves

 

http://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/about-bp/energy-economics/statistical-review-of-world-energy/review-by-energy-type/oil/oil-reserves.html

 

And there you have it, the info as best known.

Total world proved oil reserves reached 1687.9 billion barrels at the end of 2013

Sufficient to meet 53.3 years of global production. The largest additions to reserves came from Russia, adding 900 million barrels and Venezuela adding 800 million barrels. OPEC members continue to hold the majority of reserves, accounting for 71.9% of the global total. South & Central America continues to hold the highest R/P ratio. Over the past decade, global proved reserves have increased by 27%, or over 350 billion barrels

 

This varies year on year as new reserves are found, and demand fluctuates. Of course its a guestimate, but the best we have. Info for Gas, Coal Nuclear etc all is there.

 

Brit15

 

Maybe it is 40, maybe it is 53.3. Maybe we will use the same amount we are using now, maybe we will increase our usage. But one thing is certain and that is that when the oil is gone that will be it, essentially forever since new oil reserves aren't laid down on a human timescale. And I don't have a vested interest since I am not a "tree hugger" nor do I drive a car.

[jjb1970]

That is not strictly true as if you have elemental carbon and hydrogen (and both are abundant) then you can synthesis hydro-carbon fuels. At the moment the economics don't add up, but that was true of extracting shale oil not long ago and as many traditional oil consumers (eg. automotive) move away from oil combined with increasing efficiency of those consumers that don't I don't think the situation is anything like as bad as is sometimes made out. As Brit15 states the RP ratio of oil and gas has actually been steadily increasing.

[APOLLO]

Actually the main factor is EROEI - Energy returned on energy invested

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_invested

 

Take the first oilfields in Texas, drill a hole and the oil gushed out (gusher). Very little EROEI. Recently developed Canadian Tar Sands, very high EROEI as hot steam injection etc needed. The large Saudi oil fields need ever increasing water injection at pressure to get the oil out - higher & higher EREOI. Every oil field has a different EROEI

 

The cheap(ish) oil we currently enjoy won't last long, EROEI will decide that, and soon. Yes the RP ratio of oil and gas has actually been steadily increasing these last few years, but this increase wont last too long either. The big, easy oil & gas fields are at or past peak. No major finds have been made in the last few years. Obama has just announced permission to drill in the Arctic. There could well be major fields there, off the Falklands, far west Pacific (which the Chinese are currently annexing), but it will all be costly to exploit, high EROEI, $100+ oil.

 

As to synthetic fuels, the technology exists, the base materials are abundant, but again it's the EROEI that will decide if it's viable.

 

Complex subject, I'm no expert, but as a retired energy engineer I like to know the basics of such things. We probably are OK for quite a few years. Our children's children will not be.

 

Brit15

 

 

[rockershovel]

Le Corbusier should have been bound hand and foot and thrown in the guards van of the Weymouth boat train, stamped "Not Wanted In Voyage" and returned to France toot-sweet. Did more to blight the lives of the post-War man in the street than the whole Luftwaffe.

 

The government's green-sky, carbon-neutral fantasies are partly Virtue Signalling by Guardianistas and partly pure greed; carbon trading is BIG business if you are India or China, flat-out on low grade coal for power generation.

[rockershovel]

The big topic right now in oil and gas is "unconventionals". The Saudis have huge stocks of tight shale hydrocarbons; they have never bothered because when you can produce sweet crude at $4/bbl in virtually unlimited quantities, why bother?

 

They are making a twin-pincer play against Russia and the U.S., recruiting US talent in the tight shale sector because the next step change will be BIG cost reductions in tight shale production - fracking, if you like.

 

No one in the upstream and construction sectors are betting on $100/bbl in any foreseeable future

[jjb1970]

Saudi Aramco has been relying on advanced extraction techniques to maintain production for many years. Although clearly nothing like as expensive or difficult as deep water drilling the Saudi fields have been reliant on increasingly expensive techniques since the 1970's.

[runs as required]

Le Corbusier should have been bound hand and foot and thrown in the guards van of the Weymouth boat train, stamped "Not Wanted In Voyage" and returned to France toot-sweet. Did more to blight the lives of the post-War man in the street than the whole Luftwaffe.

 

You should make a point of staying in the 'Hotel Le Corbusier' half way up his 1950 Unité in Marseilles, and see if you still think the same.

My daughter in law gave us a 'mystery away week-end' courtesy of Ryan from Stanstead to there a few years back.

I loved the little details like the lttle tube onto the kitchen worktop for a baguette to be delivered to one's apartment each morning! 

dhig

 

ed: forgot to insert the link

[Mike 84C]

I'm not sure how cutting forests in the Southern USA, pelletising the timber then shipping across the Atlantic to burn in Drax power station is green? As I understand it wood has only half the calorific value of coal so you need twice as much for the same energy output so the only way it seems to stack up financially is by subsidy. Meanwhile Drax consumes the forests of the US and we in GB sit on an island of coal. How does the strategy work?