Mikemeg's Workbench - Building locos of the North Eastern & LNER

[mikemeg]

Hello Mike,

having looked back through the G5 build, I may have missed it, but what motor/gearbox configuration have you used?

 

Many thanks for continuing your inspirational builds too!

 

Pete

 

Pete,

 

Firstly, many thanks for the kind words; much appreciated.

 

I have used the Mashima 1420 motor with a High Level Models Roadrunner Compact Plus gearbox (60 : 1 ratio) drivng on the rear axle with the motor facing the firebox back head.

 

It is necessary to crop off the rear shaft of the motor to achieve this orientation and I use a Dremel with an emery disk to do this. It is worth mentioning that this activity does generate a lot of sparks and quite a bit of heat, in the motor shaft, so do it slowly and always wear some eye protection!!!.

 

This drive train will probably give these G5's far more haulng power than they need but the slow running should be acceptable (minimum running speed of 1 - 2 scale mph).

 

All of the G5 builds have been/will be weighted to around 7 - 8 oz which, again, should give ample adhesive weight for what they will be required to haul or push!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited March 20, 2018 by mikemeg

[pete55]

Pete,

 

Firstly, many thanks for the kind words; much appreciated.

 

I have used the Mashima 1420 motor with a High Level Models Roadrunner Compact Plus gearbox (60 : 1 ratio) drivng on the rear axle.

 

This drive train will probably give these G5's far more haulng power than they need but the slow running should be acceptable (minimum running speed of 1 - 2 scale mph).

 

All of the G5 builds have been/will be weighted to around 7 - 8 oz which, again, should give ample adhesive weight for what they will be required to haul or push!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

Thanks for that Mike, most helpful indeed.

[Buhar]

Hi Mike,

 

Please can I ask how you solder up the rolled boiler, is it done from the outside of the seam and then cleaned up?  Presumably with the formers in place you can't get the iron iside at all.

[mikemeg]

Hi Mike,

 

Please can I ask how you solder up the rolled boiler, is it done from the outside of the seam and then cleaned up?  Presumably with the formers in place you can't get the iron iside at all.

 

The boiler on this G5 kit, as supplied, is brass tube. Therefore there is no rolling or soldering necessary to form the boiler or smokebox, though the various layers forming the smokebox do need to be soldered to the boiler tube.

 

On those kits where the boiler is rolled, I follow the following procedure :-

 

1) The boiler is rolled to a slightly smaller diameter than necessary so that the bottom edges overlap very slightly after the rolling is complete. I use a GW Models mini roller for this process, which will roll a tube up to some five inches (12.5 cm) in length. More than enough for most 4 mm scale boilers (now someone will disprove that statement). The Raven Pacifics might challenge that assertion!!

 

By rolling the tube to a slightly smaller diameter than necessary - and we are talking a very small amount - then the soldered joint is not actually under any pressure from the tube attempting to open the seam and expand to its original, rolled diameter. So the seam simply holds the edges together!!

 

I won't go into how this rolling is done (the instructions on the roller cover this) save to say that the boiler is rolled in successively smaller diameter stages, possibly six, eight or even ten incremental reductions of the rolling diameter before the final diameter is reached.

 

2) The bottom edges are then butted against each other, on a very flat piece of wood, and the seam just tack soldered at each end.

 

3) The bottom seam is then soldered more completely from the inside of the cylinder, from each end.

 

4) I normally then apply a small amount of solder to the outside of the bottom seam, taking care not to unsolder the inside seam.

 

5) Then a vigorous clean up of the bottom of the outside of the soldered boiler with fine files and emery.

 

6) The former(s) are only added once the rolled tube has been seam soldered. To get the formers into the tube, the soldering at the ends of the seam has to be reduced to a minimal thickness, which is why the ends should be seam soldered on the outside also.

 

This also demands that the soldered tube is pretty well circular before trying to add the formers. If not the whole thing wil simply come undone. It is a mistake to believe that any significant deviation from circular will be rectified by forcing in the circular former, though some small inconsistency may be corrected.

 

On Arthur's kits the front former (sometimes the only former) is fitted set back from the front of the boiler tube by 1 - 2 mm to allow for the boiler to fit into the smokebox wrapper by around .020" (.5 mm)  and to allow for the brass ring between the boiler and smokebox.

 

One trick, which someone on here suggested, is to roll the boiler with a piece of cardboard - the same size or larger as the boiler wrapper - wrapped with the metal wrapper. This stops the bottom edges of the rolled tube from failing to roll to the correct diameter in the rollers. This approach is also useful when rolling boiler or smokebox wrappers which have embossed rivet detail, as it protects that detail from being rolled flat.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited March 20, 2018 by mikemeg

[Jol Wilkinson]

It is worth pointing out that some kit producers, including LRM, either supply tube for the boiler or if it is etched, roll it before putting into the kit. It then just needs joining along the seam. I use soft iron wire at several places along the boiler, wrapped around and the ends twisted together, to bring the seam together. 

[Iain Popplewell]

 Backing up what Mike and Jol say and on the basis that a picture is worth a thousand words this is how its done by me.

 

What you start out with, a flat boiler and formers. This is the boiler bits from Arthurs North Eastern kits Class T1.

 

 

I believe Arthur now provides boilers ready rolled in his kits, but I digress.

 

What you need to roll that brass a G W Models roller as used by Mike.

 

 

Rollers shown with a bit of smokebox cladding in this case. The allan key is used to progressively tighten the rollers equally at both sides as you roll the brass too and frow across the length of the brass. One eighth turns of the key in the latter stages of rolling. A shorter allan key may be used rather than this huge one, but this was what I had to hand.

 

You end up with this.

 

If the tube starts to roll as a cone, tightening the roller slightly more at the wider end should even things up. It's actually not as difficult as you might think and quite good fun. Proper engineering!

The only difficult bit can be getting the last edges along the join to form a proper smooth curve and I think I'll try Mikes cardboard dodge next time.

Arthurs etches curved quite nicely anyway.

Oh just if you are wondering, you free the trapped boiler tube from the rollers by slackening off both allan screws. Then by removing one screw free the top roller, this allows the boiler tube to be withdrawn. Take care you don't drop and lose the concealed spring and collar though. It can take a while to find such small items on workshop floors!

 

Jol suggests twisted iron wire, I use cable ties.

 

Tack solder both ends and middle of tube. Then seam along with iron working from the inside of the tube at all times.

The seam shown is without any cleaning up at all! I was well chuffed with it I can tell you.

 

Having solderered a nut to the boiler former, solder it into the boiler end. Arthurs etches are spot on and it goes together a dream. Don't solder the bolt in though, not a good idea.

 

 

What it all looks like after cleaning up.

 

 

 

Absolutely lovely. Open a beer and reflect on your engineering prowess and skill. 

 

Edit: Actually in hind sight, reflect on Arthur Kimber's engineering prowess and skill, it's the kit makers that make it all so easy. Not to mention Mr G W models.

G W models also do 1.5mm, 2.0mm worm pullers, Alan Gibson wheel pullers, Alan Gibson wheel onto axle presses that quarter the wheels for you! and if that wasn't all they even do a very nice set of bending bars. Buy the lot if you can they're invaluable. I speak only as a satisfied user, usual disclaimer.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Iain Popplewell

[mikemeg]

LONDON ROAD MODELS LNER G5

 

Firstly, thanks to Iain for a great posting showing the stages in rolling and soldering a boiler; I'll drink to that too; cracking job!!

 

Worth mentioning that the reference to Arthur's T1 kit is the NER T1, LNER Q5/1, not the LNER T1 which was a 4-8-0 tank.

 

Secondly and in response to an earlier question from Pete55, here's a photo of chassis #2 with the motor and gearbox installed. The motor has not yet had its shaft cropped at the non business end.

 

The Roadrunner Compact Plus does have an articulated drive carriage which can itself be orientated in different ways to minimise the lateral space taken up by the gearbox/motor combination. Second photo shows the arrangement of the motor/gearbox, ready for later installation into build #3.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited March 20, 2018 by mikemeg

[ArthurK]

 Backing up what Mike and Jol say and on the basis that a picture is worth a thousand words this is how its done by me.

 

What you start out with, a flat boiler and formers. This is the boiler bits from Arthurs North Eastern kits Class T1.

 

DSC01792.jpg

 

I believe Arthur now provides boilers ready rolled in his kits, but I digress.

 

What you need to roll that brass a G W Models roller as used by Mike.

 

DSC01803.jpg

 

Rollers shown with a bit of smokebox cladding in this case. The allan key is used to progressively tighten the rollers equally at both sides as you roll the brass too and frow across the length of the brass. One eighth turns of the key in the latter stages of rolling. A shorter allan key may be used rather than this huge one, but this was what I had to hand.

 

You end up with this.

DSC01793.jpg

 

If the tube starts to roll as a cone, tightening the roller slightly more at the wider end should even things up. It's actually not as difficult as you might think and quite good fun. Proper engineering!

The only difficult bit can be getting the last edges along the join to form a proper smooth curve and I think I'll try Mikes cardboard dodge next time.

Arthurs etches curved quite nicely anyway.

Oh just if you are wondering, you free the trapped boiler tube from the rollers by slackening of both allan screws. Then by removing one screw free the top roller, this allows the boiler tube to be withdrawn. Take care you don't drop and lose the concealed spring and collar though. It can take a while to find such small items on workshop floors!

 

Jol suggests twisted iron wire, I use cable ties.

DSC01795.jpg

 

Tack solder both ends and middle of tube. Then seam along with iron working from the inside of the tube at all times.

The seam shown is without any cleaning up at all! I was well chuffed with it I can tell you.

 

Having solderered a nut to the boiler former, solder it into the boiler end. Arthurs etches are spot on and it goes together a dream. Don't solder the bolt in though, not a good idea.

DSC01796.jpg

 

 

What it all looks like after cleaning up.

DSC01798.jpg

 

 

 

Absolutely lovely. Open a beer and reflect on your engineering prowess and skill. 

 

As has been said  above, I now roll all the boilers in my kits. Like many I find it difficult to avoid getting a 'flat' along the seam edges. it is possible. I have tried various dodges including a piece of scrap brass to bridge the gap (similar to Mike's cardboard) but I usually resort to inserting the nearly finished boiler into a heavier duty tube withe inner diameter similar to that of the boiler and then roll the two together. That usually does the trick!

 

ArthurK

[michl080]

[...] I usually resort to inserting the nearly finished boiler into a heavier duty tube withe inner diameter similar to that of the boiler and then roll the two together. That usually does the trick!

 

Arthur, not sure if I understand that correctly. Does that mean that only the top roller is in contact with the boiler and that both lower rollers are in contact with the tube?

 

Michael

[ArthurK]

Arthur, not sure if I understand that correctly. Does that mean that only the top roller is in contact with the boiler and that both lower rollers are in contact with the tube?

 

Michael

 

The top roller is inside both the boiler and the tube. Since the boiler is now only a little smaller than the tube rolling the two together forms the boiler the the tube inside diameter.

 

ArthurK

[Iain Popplewell]

The top roller is inside both the boiler and the tube. Since the boiler is now only a little smaller than the tube rolling the two together forms the boiler the the tube inside diameter.

 

ArthurK

 

Very clever Arthur, the boiler tube is caught between the top roller and a hard place ie. the slightly larger outside tube. I like it, next boiler I do I'm going to give it a try. I'm already thinking 22mm copper water pipe is probably ideal for boilers in the region of 5ft diam. in 4mm scale.

Amazing hobby, railway modelling, there's always a new aspect to it.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Iain Popplewell

[Daddyman]

This is the only way I've ever managed to roll a decent round boiler in a GW press - by inserting a tube of the right diameter or less over the top roller on the GW press and then rolling the boiler around it, which I think is what Arthur is suggesting. I did spend some time with George Watts at a show a couple of years ago and he consistently failed to roll anything circular "live", and none of the demo boilers on his stand passed muster - in the way that Iain Popplewell's does - so good results certainly take some practice with this tool. However, George Watts did say he'd been given the roll-around-a-tube method. 

 

Incidentally, I notice that none of you is annealing boilers before rolling. I found that when I did this, the boiler (which had been cut to the correct circumference) would end up too large in circumference after rolling. I can only surmise that the rollers stretched the metal. On the other hand, the best rolled boiler I've ever had from a kit manufacturer - an LRM K2 - had been annealed. 

[Portchullin Tatty]

Could I trouble either Arthur or Daddyman to include a photograph of what they are describing as I am not sure I quite understand what you are describing?

[polybear]

The top roller is inside both the boiler and the tube. Since the boiler is now only a little smaller than the tube rolling the two together forms the boiler the the tube inside diameter.

 

ArthurK

 

What would be the outcome if you rolled the kit boiler as well as possible (without using another tube), then solder it, then put it back on the GW roller and roll again to get rid of any flat?

[KalKat]

You would end up with a kink where the join was. Or it wouldn't go through the rollers.

 

 

Emma

[Jol Wilkinson]

What would be the outcome if you rolled the kit boiler as well as possible (without using another tube), then solder it, then put it back on the GW roller and roll again to get rid of any flat?

 

I've done that with test etch n/s boilers. These were designed with 2.0mm overlapping half etched joints so the finished thickness is effectively the same at the soldered joint. Boiler, smokebox and firebox "inserts" help in controlling the cross section profiles

 

I have found that etched brass doesn't usually need annealing before rolling, but n/s - especially .015"/.4mm - does.

[micknich2003]

Here's bit of insperation for all you budding G5 Builders. Hull Botanic, 1952.  Photographer unknown.

[Daddyman]

Could I trouble either Arthur or Daddyman to include a photograph of what they are describing as I am not sure I quite understand what you are describing?

Does this help? Just a mock-up this morning - in reality the tube should be cleaner. It's a simple concept but hard to describe in words or show in pictures. 

 

[mikemeg]

Here's bit of insperation for all you budding G5 Builders. Hull Botanic, 1952.  Photographer unknown.

1 G5 67282 Botanic August 1952.jpg

 

This is one of the only 1950's G5 photos I've seen (so far) showing a G5 in anything like clean condition. And this particular loco is the subjext of build #1, making this photograph especially relevant and valuable. Just pure gold, this photograph!!

 

Interesting to see that the number is actually using the 12" numerals rather than the 10" numerals used when the number is placed on the tank side. The lion and wheel emblem is the smaller version as used on most tank locomotives.

 

Many thanks, Mick

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited March 22, 2018 by mikemeg

[PenrithBeacon]

Does this help? Just a mock-up this morning - in reality the tube should be cleaner. It's a simple concept but hard to describe in words or show in pictures.

 

1 20180322_073900small.jpg

Thank you for that.

Not sure about it being a simple concept though. Why does this addition of this tube give better results than using the roller without? That I don’t understand but I accept absolutely that it’s true.

[Jol Wilkinson]

David,

 

I think it may be that the tube is acting as a correct diameter "jig" forcing the boiler to match it's profile. Otherwise you are rolling around a much smaller diameter roller and possibly any "distortion" during the rolling process isn't smoothed out.

 

I've never done this and the kits on the shelf I have yet to build  all have the boilers already rolled ,so I shan't have to try it out..

 

Jol

[michl080]

I think it is important to notice that Arthur has the boiler INside the tube where Daddyman has the boiler OUTside the tube.

 

Michael

[Dave Holt]

Surely, using a solid tube to help roll right to the edges of the boiler only works if the boiler is inside the the tube, so that the top roller has something to press the edge of the boiler against? Having the tube on the inside, as shown is no different to using rolls with a bigger top roller and doesn't alter the edge bending problem. This is also an issue in the engineering industry with pyramid rolls. Their solution is to pre-bend the plate edges in a press or use self edge bending rolls which have the rollers arranged in a different configuration, if I remember correctly.

Dave.

[mikemeg]

LONDON ROAD MODELS LNER G5(S)

 

So, at the end of ten weeks, a quick photo to review progress to date on this G5 project. Still quite a bit of detailing to do on build #1 - including all of the push and pull control paraphenalia - and even more detaiing to do on build #2. Even so, build #3 will commence next Monday, when the footplate is 'laid down' - 'laid down'; sounds like building ships!!

 

So all of the 'micro' stuff on #1 and #2 will be alleviated by some 'macro' stuff on #3 and #1 will be completed before any detailing is done on #3. This way I can pretty well ensure that they all get built and they all get completed!

 

I know Mick's photo of 67282 is August, 1952 and my models are all set in mid 1950 but seeing that photo, then I must finish 67282 in just such a state of near pristine paintwork.

 

You may have gathered that I do have a certain fondness for G5's as I have for almost all of the old North Eastern's locomotives!!

 

Mike

Edited March 22, 2018 by mikemeg

[Daddyman]

Surely, using a solid tube to help roll right to the edges of the boiler only works if the boiler is inside the the tube, so that the top roller has something to press the edge of the boiler against? Having the tube on the inside, as shown is no different to using rolls with a bigger top roller and doesn't alter the edge bending problem. This is also an issue in the engineering industry with pyramid rolls. Their solution is to pre-bend the plate edges in a press or use self edge bending rolls which have the rollers arranged in a different configuration, if I remember correctly.

Dave.

You may be right - this is just the way the tip was given to me by George Watts, passed on to him, as I said, by one of his customers. You mention that with the tube inside the top roller has nothing to press the edge of the boiler against, but does it make any difference if the tube is inside or outside? In both cases, inside or outside, don't the rollers have the tube to press the boiler against? I'll certainly try Arthur's method. Re your comment that this is no different from using rolls with a bigger top roller, perhaps not, but the GW press doesn't have a bigger top roller; one problem I have with the tool is rolling a consistent diameter - a circle, in other words (as do, from what I've seen, George Watts and DMR/Phoenix Precision), and the tube on the inside solves this problem. It's a while since I've used the method, and I think it was always on annealed boilers, but I don't recall a problem with flats at the seam - the tube on the inside allows one to keep rolling round and round, rather than having to stop short of the edge. There's also no need to roll progressively smaller radii, as per Iain Popplewell's method. 

 

I often have a different issue with pre-rolled boilers supplied with kits and I wonder if anyone has a solution. The boilers are often "swollen" and off-round at the cut-outs for domes, chimneys, etc. Is there any way around this? I've tended to resort to sanding them to get a perfect round. Has the kit supplier rolled the boiler badly, or just as well as is humanly possible when cut-outs are present? Personally, I'd rather not have such cut-outs for boiler fittings, though to clear wheels cut-outs are of course unavoidable. 

 

 

Absolutely beautiful G5s by the way, Mike!