Driving standards

[kevinlms]

4 minutes ago, JDW said:

 

As a bus/coach driver, I have been on the end of this no end of times.  I set off first, car from further round sets of a second or two later as I'm crossing the roundabout already (or just comes zooming onto it from out of my line of sight) and accelerates up to the side of me before braking hard.  No idea why they don't just ease off and pass behind. 

 

It's the same kind of idiots that see me sat in the middle of a traffic light junction, waiting to turn right, and having to wait til the lights change as there's too much oncoming traffic.  Traffic lights change, traffic from my left and right shoots off the mark as soon as theirs go to amber, and in more than one case, right up to the side of me as I'm still turning so I can't exit the junction, before lecturing me on how I "went through on red", despite the fact they can clearly see me stuck there waiting for a good 10 or 20 seconds, and that unless they let me get out of the junction, they can't get across anyway!  In the same way that people forget the "give way to traffic already on the roundabout" rule, they seem to forget that green means "go if it is safe/clear", not "blindly accelerate".

 

As far as lane discipline goes at roundabouts, most are clearly marked and/or signed especially if it is different from the above diagram which is fairly clear and sensible, yet people's inability to follow basic signs and markings - or even see them - is limitless...

I'm glad to read someone agrees with me that most multilane roundabouts are CLEARLY marked as to which direction you are allowed to go from each lane. It makes the original radio question mostly academic.

 

You'd love driving a bus/heavy vehicle in Australia NOT, they get treated like carp in Australia, with many passing on the inside and pulling in front of them at lights!

 

A motorbike rider died yesterday, lane splitting (legal now below 30kmh), he got hit by the car & fell off and knocked into the path of a B-Double. 

 

https://www.massmanagement.com.au/pdfs/vic/Vic 26 m BD Gazette.pdf

 

I try to give as much room as practical.

[Flying Pig]

4 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

I'm glad to read someone agrees with me that most multilane roundabouts are CLEARLY marked as to which direction you are allowed to go from each lane. It makes the original radio question mostly academic.

...

 

You do understand that you live in a different country from most posters in this thread and that the law and practice you're familiar with (and the examples you cite) may well not apply in the UK?

[kevinlms]

35 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

You do understand that you live in a different country from most posters in this thread and that the law and practice you're familiar with (and the examples you cite) may well not apply in the UK?

Of course I do. As I said before, by far the vast majority of multi lane roundabouts in both countries, CLEARLY show which directions are allowable from which lanes.

 

What is so difficult, about following the signs? Sorry but I get tired of some of these comments, suggesting I have no idea, because I live outside the UK!

 

Edit to add.

 

Previously I CLEARLY stated that I was referencing an Australian document. Is it MY fault if  others failed to notice that?

Edited February 7, 2019 by kevinlms

[TheQ]

opps

Edited February 7, 2019 by TheQ

[TheQ]

1 hour ago, newbryford said:

I'll just leave this here...……...

 

Except  the Obvious US title "west Coast", I'd say anywhere south of a line joining Helensborough  and Dundee

[hayfield]

3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

I'm fully aware of where Essex is - I should be as born at Rochford Hospital!

 

However, my point is that roundabout can and do have have specific signs and lane markings on them, which over ride 'normal' rules.

If fact thinking about it, every two lane approach to a roundabout, I can think of here, ALWAYS have lane markings, as to which lane to use for the various exits.

A local one to me has a left only lane and a left/straight/right turn from the right.

 

Usually a roundabout is highly customised, as to the traffic flow around them and except for single lane all entrance/exits, have the arrows clearly marked - as indeed they need to.

 

 

I started it off with the rules from the highway code "unless otherwise instructed", where you are told which is the appropriate lane, Many roundabouts still have no markings which is where the confusion lies

[TheQ]

Or as today I arrived at one of the NDR roundabouts,  from the minor road side,. Sometime recently they have erased the left hand straight on sign on the tarmac leaving a gap and a bit of a left turn sign.  Then repainted the tarmac right hand lane into straight on only..  With no sign for turn right. 

These on the tarmac signs,  are impossible to see from a distance,  and when there is traffic you can't see them because the cars are on them.  There are no other signs from the minor road directions... 

 

 

[96701]

Indicating right to go straight on at roundabouts gets my goat. Who invented that particular trick?

[TheQ]

29 minutes ago, 96701 said:

Indicating right to go straight on at roundabouts gets my goat. Who invented that particular trick?

It's actually taught for large roundabouts to show you are not turning left,  and haven't just forgotten to indicate.  Once past the left hand turns you are not using you then indicate left for your exit.

[ejstubbs]

27 minutes ago, 96701 said:

Indicating right to go straight on at roundabouts gets my goat. Who invented that particular trick?

 

It does seem to be quite common, and extends to multi-way roundabouts as well: indicate right until you're passing the exit before the one you want, at which point stop indicating altogether.  Never, under any circumstances, indicate left at any point.

 

Here is an example of a roundabout which doesn't have clear lane markings on any approach road.  There's nothing if you approach from the south, west, or north (admittedly the northern approach is a single lane).  It might look as if the eastern approach is clearly marked but in fact it's not: the left-hand lane is clearly marked for turning left, but the right-hand lane is clearly marked for straight on - which would actually take you back on to the road you'd just left.  There is no marking for turning right.  What actually happens is that people turn left from both lanes, with the self-important/impatient people doing so from the right-hand lane because there is otherwise comparatively little traffic in that lane, because so few people want to go straight on (for obvious reasons) or turn right (because the road to the north doesn't go anywhere particularly interesting or important).

 

This is actually the junction between the A1 and the Edinburgh City Bypass: two major, two-lane dual carriageways which carry a lot of traffic.  But the markings on the approach to the roundabout are far from clear.

 

(This is also one of those roundabouts where self-important/impatient drivers approaching from the west turn right from the left-hand lane, for much the same reason that that type of driver approaching from the east will turn left from the right-hand lane.  Basically, if you're approaching the roundabout off the A1 you will all too often find it being treated as a devil-take-the-hindmost free-for-all - ironically, very often by drivers who don't seem to bother to get much of a move-on once they've actually negotiated the roundabout and reached a freely-moving open road.)

[96701]

18 minutes ago, TheQ said:

It's actually taught for large roundabouts to show you are not turning left,  and haven't just forgotten to indicate.  Once past the left hand turns you are not using you then indicate left for your exit.

Large roundabouts, maybe. But small roundabouts where people wait for the oncoming car to cross in front of them, then at the last minute manages one flash of orange and goes left. Most irritating.

[alastairq]

13 minutes ago, TheQ said:

It's actually taught for large roundabouts to show you are not turning left,  and haven't just forgotten to indicate.  Once past the left hand turns you are not using you then indicate left for your exit.

 

It's applied to any sort of roundabout...therefore something must be getting 'lost in the interpretation'......  

However, someone at DVSA needs to look at the  risk assessment for this particular practice.

For it can be a 'misleading signal'.

Especially for those who may be behind, or to one side?

I'd like to see  the legal outcome if someone signalled their intention to 'turn right' [take the last exit, or, 'turn right' as per HC?]....but instead intended to go straight on.....and someone else saw the 'right signal' so went up the first vehicle's near side, to go ahead? Ending up with two vehicles fighting for the same exit space? When one vehicle has initially signalled to go another way? Especially if lane marking, or discipline, is slack?

 

I suspect this has emanated from a perceived issue of the appearance of those vehicles 'waiting', to not understand that 'no signal' is in fact, a signal!

 

Or are we getting driving instructors who seem to have lost the plot, and feel students need to be 'taught-to-drive'...? 

 

Next thing is we'll have instructors teaching to use indicators to show we're going round corners?

 

 

[PaulCheffus]

41 minutes ago, alastairq said:

 

It's applied to any sort of roundabout...therefore something must be getting 'lost in the interpretation'......  

However, someone at DVSA needs to look at the  risk assessment for this particular practice.

For it can be a 'misleading signal'.

Especially for those who may be behind, or to one side?

I'd like to see  the legal outcome if someone signalled their intention to 'turn right' [take the last exit, or, 'turn right' as per HC?]....but instead intended to go straight on.....and someone else saw the 'right signal' so went up the first vehicle's near side, to go ahead? Ending up with two vehicles fighting for the same exit space? When one vehicle has initially signalled to go another way? Especially if lane marking, or discipline, is slack?

 

Hi

 

This  happens quite regularly on one roundabout near where I live. On several occasions I have nearly been hit by the car forcing their way back in. There is no lane marking at the roundabout.

 

Cheers

 

paul

[alastairq]

26 minutes ago, PaulCheffus said:

Hi

 

This  happens quite regularly on one roundabout near where I live. On several occasions I have nearly been hit by the car forcing their way back in. There is no lane marking at the roundabout.

 

Cheers

 

paul

Exactly my point...

Is this 'change' of instruction actually DVSA-led? Or is it something that has crept in, like urban myth?

[JDW]

6 hours ago, kevinlms said:

I'm fully aware of where Essex is - I should be as born at Rochford Hospital!

 

However, my point is that roundabout can and do have have specific signs and lane markings on them, which over ride 'normal' rules.

If fact thinking about it, every two lane approach to a roundabout, I can think of here, ALWAYS have lane markings, as to which lane to use for the various exits.

A local one to me has a left only lane and a left/straight/right turn from the right.

 

Usually a roundabout is highly customised, as to the traffic flow around them and except for single lane all entrance/exits, have the arrows clearly marked - as indeed they need to.

 

I can think of one location where for occasional big events to allow better traffic flow the signs are replaced with multiple big yellow ones saying that instead of the usual two lanes of the dual carriageway being left/straight and straight/right, they become left/straight/right and right only.  Yet people still either nearly collide with me or get very mad as I go down the moving left lane past the queue in the right lane, and turn right, as the signs indicate I can, with all the usual gestures and shouts about bus drivers thinking they can do what they like...

 

Getting back to some of the more recent comments, I'm very surprised if it is being taught to signal right at a normal roundabout unless you are turning right (generally anywhere after 180 degrees but it will vary according to road layout, let's not get bogged down in minutiae and case-by-case analysis), as this is wrong.  Obviously there are cases where it might make your intentions clearer if the roundabout is not round, or where the layout is confusing, but as always you should give a clear signal to let people know what you are doing, not give a wrong signal. 

 

The other common one, which is just as bad, is signalling left to turn on to a roundabout...  

 

 

 

[TheQ]

1 hour ago, alastairq said:

Exactly my point...

Is this 'change' of instruction actually DVSA-led? Or is it something that has crept in, like urban myth?

I've been doing the CBT motor bike test,  it is taught by instructors. 

 

Oh not 100% sure but if you  move left to head for an exit and therefore pass or partly pass the car on the inside of you on the roundabout, because you think he may be turning right,  you are undertaking,  and therefore are committing an offence in all but traffic jam conditions... 

 

[alastairq]

Not necessarily.  

Neither is 'undertaking' any sort of offence.

[It is the 'manner' of an undertake that creates an offence,potentially, and can be no different to 'overtaking'...]

 

The problem is, the misleading signal.

 

Plus, if a 'new' course of action [signalling contrary to Highway Code] is being taught, then it must be taught  to be used only in certain, limited, circumstances.

This raises the issue of misunderstanding of what is being taught......

[rockershovel]

Most roundabouts of any size in the U.K. are clearly marked with which lane and which exit. I drive regularly at various times of the day (particularly at the moment, because I’m working on a job which is tidally influences) and tbh, the biggest problem is the sheer weight of traffic at certain times of day, combined with the general practice of uprating inner urban roads so that roundabouts effectively act as choke points in a heavy flow of quite fast traffic. 

 

What ISNT clearly marked, is how traffic is intended to transfer from lane to lane. Add in the number of roundabouts which now feature lights (or they would simply act as blocks on some flows) and it’s a wonder traffic flows at all, at some times and places. 

 

That said, I’d certainly vote for a police programme by which all 6 year old Honda Civics with 3” exhausts, plus all black German saloons with tinted windows, wheresoever registered, were stopped on sight, and crushed immediately by the roadside. They seem to be the main offenders by a considerable margin! Reps in red Mondeos or Vauxhalls seem to be an almost extinct species now, on the other hand...

 

 

[mezzoman253]

One example of poor road layout design is the roundabout shown in the attached picture. This was "improved" for the 2012 Olympics as the Japanese swimming team were using the facilities in Basildon, so we got grant money for infrastructure improvements.

 

The original roundabout didn't have the "hockey stick" slip road. If you wanted to turn left you got in the inside lane and proceeded as you would any other roundabout. 

 

Now as you come down the slip road, from the A127, you are at a very awkward angle to be able to see traffic coming from the right from the roundabout. you are trying to look over your shoulder at an extremely awkward angle. To compound this, people don't use the slip road and turn left from the inside, straight on, lane. This is clearly marked as such. 

 

So you are looking at traffic coming from the right in the near distance, and can't see these drivers suddenly turning left illegally. Many accidents have occurred, which makes even more drivers turn left from the straight on route.

 

The only safe way now is to turn right and go completely around the roundabout to go left. 

 

Many complaints have been made, but we are told the slip roads are within standards. Six years later and accidents are still happening on a regular basis.

 

In general, the signage for junctions and roundabouts is not positioned far enough in advance of these to be able to manoeuvre safely for the correct lane. Putting markings on the road just prior to the junction is not effective as it's too late for safe manoeuvring, and usually not visible due to traffic.

 

It seems new drivers are taught very differently nowadays. However, those of us who've been driving for many years aren't aware of these changes, and, they expect us to be driving like them. Not a situation that will help avoid accidents.

 

We all need to be adhering to the same rules. What those rules are, seem to be generation dependent. 

 

Rob

 

[rockershovel]

I don’t know that they are taught differently, so much as adapted to the increasingly common practice of only signalling junctions at the last. Then again, the general decline in lane discipline doesn’t help at all - how common is it now, to see cars swooping from lane to lane to lane, overtaking then braking furiously as they approach a sliproad? 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2019 by rockershovel

[hayfield]

18 hours ago, 96701 said:

Indicating right to go straight on at roundabouts gets my goat. Who invented that particular trick?

 

 

From memory in the Highway code indication is to inform motorists behind you of your intention, not to inform those waiting to join the roundabout

 

Also in the Highway code it states you cannot do a right turn on a roundabout, as you always exit to the left

 

There is a roundabout as you leave the A12 junction 16 going towards Stock where one of the 3 exits goes to a local JW compound, motorists signal right (though the road in reality goes straight on) purely to inform other motorists of your intentions

 

Whilst I have stated what the High Way Code instructs, I believe giving clear indications of the direction you wish to take is both good manners and good practice. If however you are waiting to enter a roundabout just because a driver is indicating its not a sign for you to enter the roundabout regardless.

[Coryton]

13 minutes ago, hayfield said:

From memory in the Highway code indication is to inform motorists behind you of your intention, not to inform those waiting to join the roundabout

 

 

Consistent indicating on roundabouts would also be quite useful for people who need to cross roads at roundabouts and tend to be less equipped with air bags and crumple zones than those in other vehicles.

[hayfield]

Just now, Coryton said:

 

Consistent indicating on roundabouts would also be quite useful for people who need to cross roads at roundabouts and tend to be less equipped with air bags and crumple zones than those in other vehicles.

 

 

Totally agree, all road users should be mindful of other road users.

[Titan]

It could have been made simple:

 

"I am taking the next exit"  Left indicator

"I am taking the next but one exit"  No indicator

" I am taking the next but two (or more) exit" Right indicator.

 

So for straight on at a small roundabout you would have no indicator, followed by left indicator as you passed the first exit, since straight on is now the "next exit"

 

For a third or more exit you would go through the sequence right indicator, no indicator, left indicator as you passed the various exits.

[PaulCheffus]

3 minutes ago, Titan said:

It could have been made simple:

 

"I am taking the next exit"  Left indicator

"I am taking the next but one exit"  No indicator

" I am taking the next but two (or more) exit" Right indicator.

 

So for straight on at a small roundabout you would have no indicator, followed by left indicator as you passed the first exit, since straight on is now the "next exit"

 

For a third or more exit you would go through the sequence right indicator, no indicator, left indicator as you passed the various exits.

Hi

 

That is exactly what I was taught in the mid 80s

 

Cheers

 

Paul