Driving standards

[johnlambert]

48 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

Its like that 3-way split, where the M6 and M42 divide. Drive that way and you WILL, sooner or later, see someone reversing into the traffic because they have taken the wrong lane. They are fully aware that they are wrong, they probably know it is dangerous but they do it anyway. 

 

 

 

The bit about reversing on the motorway reminded me of something I saw earlier this year and forgot to post.

 

I was driving north through the Dartford crossing and one tunnel was closed, so the approach lanes were also closed by means of a red "X" on the overhead displays.  The lane closures started, I'd guess, a mile out with plenty of warning earlier still.  Did this make any difference to a significant number of drivers?  Did it heck as like!

 

People continued to drive in the closed lanes until the lanes were physically closed off, at which point they were also separated by barriers from the open lanes.  This didn't stop people from joining the queue rather than pulling into the open lanes they joined the queue, until the realisation dawned that the lane was going nowhere, then reverse towards the oncomming traffic and try to filter into the open lanes (which caused the running lanes to slow or stop and, no doubt, contributed to more idiots ignoring the lane closure).

[Hobby]

One time we were driving down the autobahn near Aachen and came to the tail end of a very long queue (it turned out the autobahn had been closed further up), when we arrived we were just by a junction sliproad and there were lots of cars ahead of us turning round and driving back to that junction to get off the autobahn. It's not just UK drivers that are prone to such antics! I suppose the one consolation for them was that everyone else coming up to that junction was also trying to get off so there were no clashing(!) moves...

Edited August 18, 2019 by Hobby

[rockershovel]

52 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Sorry, but you have lost me totally.

 

I'm talking about someone who has just started going the wrong way. Maybe 50 - 100 metres down the entrance or slip road. Not someone screaming along the motorway at the signed speed limit in the wrong direction.

Neither did I mention anything about backing up, because they missed their exit. That is also appalling and selfish behaviour, now that you have mentioned it. We actually don't get a lot of that in Australia, because we don't get LH drive vehicles on our roads, which I'm sure is a big source of the problem.

 

Please reread my post, before accusing me of talking nonsense.

 

We’re at cross purposes here, the ongoing conversation was about people driving the wrong way up a slip road and/or on the carriageway. However to follow your example, reversing back down a slip road because you have taken the wrong turning is ALWAYS the wrong answer. It is both dangerous and illegal. 

[johnofwessex]

In The Netherlands, at the same time that they rebuilt their much praised cycle network, they also standardised the layout of their junctions so that you dont get some of the abominations you find in the UK.

 

As a 'for example' a light controlled pedestrian crossing with stop/give way immediately beyond

 

I suggest that like railways, new road installations should be passed by a competent person, & I suggest that we need some sort of Highways Inspectorate to ensue the safety of the existing network

Edited August 18, 2019 by johnofwessex
to improve the post

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

 

We’re at cross purposes here, the ongoing conversation was about people driving the wrong way up a slip road and/or on the carriageway. However to follow your example, reversing back down a slip road because you have taken the wrong turning is ALWAYS the wrong answer. It is both dangerous and illegal. 

We certainly are at crossed purposes.

My comments are a follow on from this post, which is before you entered this part of the discussion.

 

You ought to be able to see that ejstubbs, said that it was a VERY GOOD IDEA, for someone to do a 3 point turn.

 

It was those circumstances that I'm agreeing with, not anything else, such as continuing going the wrong way. Why would any one in their right mind think that?

 

 

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

We certainly are at crossed purposes.

My comments are a follow on from this post, which is before you entered this part of the discussion.

 

You ought to be able to see that ejstubbs, said that it was a VERY GOOD IDEA, for someone to do a 3 point turn.

 

It was those circumstances that I'm agreeing with, not anything else, such as continuing going the wrong way. Why would any one in their right mind think that?

 

 

 

You mean here?

 

 

Clearly, the risk is that a driver exiting heading East would encounter a driver making a 3-point turn in his path. 

 

 The correct course of action for our wayward hero, would have been to put his hazard lights on and either wait on the hard shoulder until directed off, or if no hard shoulder exists, reverse the way he came, on the hard shoulder if such exists, and rejoin the traffic at the roundabout as best he could.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by rockershovel

[Coryton]

5 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

To which I can only repeat my previous response; that making a 3-point turn on a slip road because you have taken the wrong turning, is stupid, dangerous and illegal under ALL circumstances. 

 

It is NEVER legal, or in accordance with the Highway Code to execute any such manoeuvre, with the specific exception of doing so under the direction of local traffic control and/or a police officer or officers. 

 

Neither the law, nor the Highway Code make any provision for your arrival at your destination; you can become delayed, completely lost, or even abandon your journey altogether and you have committed no offence and infringed no guidelines. 

 

Maybe I've completely lost the plot here, but in the original post wasn't the point that the wrong turning was onto a slip road in the wrong direction, not onto a slip road going somewhere the driver didn't intend to be?

 

In which case continuing down the slip road to the planned destination probably isn't something the Highway Code would approve of.

 

The law says you shouldn't go down a one way road in the wrong direction.

 

I don't know if it says what one should do if one finds oneself having done so, but turning round to head in the right direction sounds like one of the least hazardous options to me.

[Guest]

Another genius....

 

[kevinlms]

8 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

Maybe I've completely lost the plot here, but in the original post wasn't the point that the wrong turning was onto a slip road in the wrong direction, not onto a slip road going somewhere the driver didn't intend to be?

 

In which case continuing down the slip road to the planned destination probably isn't something the Highway Code would approve of.

 

The law says you shouldn't go down a one way road in the wrong direction.

 

I don't know if it says what one should do if one finds oneself having done so, but turning round to head in the right direction sounds like one of the least hazardous options to me.

Thank you, at least some get it!

[rockershovel]

3 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Thank you, at least some get it!

 

To wrap this up, see above.....  with the road map. 

[Nick C]

Temporary speed limits. There's a roundabout here that's being rebuilt (wider, traffic lights, etc). Because of this, they've put a TSR on it, 50 on the outer approaches, 30 closer to and on the roundabout. Every time I go through it, I slow to 30 for the 30 limit, then get someone, usually several of them, go flying past me at 50+

[ejstubbs]

4 hours ago, 30801 said:

Another genius....

 

It gets better.  Ms Buchanan was the charming indivudual responsible for this incident:

 

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/hunt-for-woman-who-burst-into-train-drivers-cabin-because-she-was-furious-about-delays-094556266.html

 

Quote

 

A woman who allegedly stormed into a train driver’s cabin out of anger at delays is being hunted by police.

 

The blonde suspect, thought to be in her 20s or early 30s, was captured on CCTV shortly before she is said to have forced her way into the cab at Hucknall railway station in Nottinghamshire.

 

...

 

She was apparently heard on a furious rant about how the train was not moving.

 

A spokesperson said: “The train was stationary at the time. The woman allegedly forced her way into the cab and verbally abused the driver in order to get the train moving.

 

 

She has since taken the opportunity to "tell her side of the story" in that bastion of responsible journalism, The Sun.  (I imagine this will have made the BTP's job easier, at least.)

 

There's more (so much more) discussion of the incident here.

Edited August 18, 2019 by ejstubbs

[rockershovel]

13 hours ago, 30801 said:

Another genius....

 

 

The more you think about that photo, the worse it gets...

[rockershovel]

8 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

 

It gets better.  Ms Buchanan was the charming indivudual responsible for this incident:

 

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/hunt-for-woman-who-burst-into-train-drivers-cabin-because-she-was-furious-about-delays-094556266.html

 

 

She has since taken the opportunity to "tell her side of the story" in that bastion of responsible journalism, The Sun.  (I imagine this will have made the BTP's job easier, at least.)

 

There's more (so much more) discussion of the incident here.

 

I once spent two sweltering hours in a multiple unit, standing in the sun between Yarmouth and Norwich for some reason. It was absolutely foul, with no air con, no opening windows, no water and no information. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

11 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

I once spent two sweltering hours in a multiple unit, standing in the sun between Yarmouth and Norwich for some reason. It was absolutely foul, with no air con, no opening windows, no water and no information. 

 

Well, you should have burst into the drivers cab and verbally abused him!

 

Mike.

[rockershovel]

54 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Well, you should have burst into the drivers cab and verbally abused him!

 

Mike.

 

Couldn't get near it, the train was that full... I did notice that during  a train journey with XC during the storm last year, the guard had locked himself in the back of the train and wasn’t seen throughout the journey. 

 

 

[Hobby]

Probably just had to deal with someone like her.

[ejstubbs]

Regarding the Lothianburn incident, for clarity I should perhaps point out:

1) There is no hard shoulder on the exit slip road*;

2) There are "No Entry" signs at the top of the exit slip road where it joins the roundabout with the A702.

 

* Is it common for one to be provided?  I have to admit that I've no idea.  Probably because I've never had the need to use one in such circumstances.  Which is fortunate for me.

[duncan]

Imaging the outcry there would have been if it had been a male passenger who had done this to a female driver     

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, ejstubbs said:

 

1) There is no hard shoulder on the exit slip road*;

 

* Is it common for one to be provided?  I have to admit that I've no idea.  Probably because I've never had the need to use one in such circumstances.  Which is fortunate for me.

 

It's a dual carriageway not a motorway so I suppose they don't legally require them.

[Reorte]

21 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

It's a dual carriageway not a motorway so I suppose they don't legally require them.

 

Strictly speaking motorways don't either (even without considering the implications of things like hard shoulder running). The M6 past Lancaster is an example where the hard shoulder breaks at bridges. All that makes a motorway are the relevant laws declaring the road in question to be one, there's nothing about the standards of that road in the legal definition. You'd have a hard time proposing building a motorway that doesn't conform to the standards though without a very good reason.

[TheQ]

3 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

Strictly speaking motorways don't either (even without considering the implications of things like hard shoulder running). The M6 past Lancaster is an example where the hard shoulder breaks at bridges. All that makes a motorway are the relevant laws declaring the road in question to be one, there's nothing about the standards of that road in the legal definition. You'd have a hard time proposing building a motorway that doesn't conform to the standards though without a very good reason.

at times the M6 doesnt have hard shoulders through birmingham, they turn them into extra lanes..

[Reorte]

The best example of a motorway being a motorway because the law said it was was the A6144(M) off the M60, a single carriageway road with no hard shoulder (although IIRC there are a couple of lay-bys). It was downgraded to an A road a few years ago, but before then was still a bona-fide motorway with a 70 mph speed limit (got changed to 50 as soon as it stopped being a motorway). The most similar remaining now that I know of is the short stretch of the A601(M) to the east of the M6, also a single carriageway, no hard shoulder motorway but it's only around a quarter mile long.

[ejstubbs]

 

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

It's a dual carriageway not a motorway so I suppose they don't legally require them.

 

The term "dual carriageway" simply describes the physical layout of the road - specifically, a road with two separate road surfaces side by side, physically divided by a central reservation.  It tells you nothing about the class of the road.  And before anyone mentions it, the A38(M) is a tidal flow single carriageway motorway - there is no central reservation.  The longest stretch of single-lane-each-way dual carriageway I've heard of is on an unclassified road leading north from the village of Llywel in the Brecon Beacons.  How it came to be is a rather strange story (perhaps not entirely surprisingly, the Army seem to have been involved) but there's no doubt that these days it is signed as a dual carriageway - complete with keep left signs - for just over a mile at its south and north ends.

 

The Edinburgh City Bypass aka the A720 is a "Non-Motorway Special Road", where "Special Road" is the legal term for roads that are restricted (under section 19 of the Road Traffic Act 1984) to certain classes of vehicle.  They are distinct from a public right of way: while a normal right of way is open to all traffic except those specifically prohibited by order, a Special Road is open to no traffic except certain classes specifically allowed by order.  All motorways are Special Roads, but there are also some non-motorways that are subject to Special Road legislation (often referred to as "secret motorways") and the A720 is one of those.

 

As Reorte pointed out, motorways are not legally required to have hard shoulders.   The construction standards are based on the expectation that they will be provided, but they can be omitted in exceptional circumstances, given adequate justification e.g. there is no reasonable alternative (such as following a different route to avoid a constriction) to leaving them out.  Hard shoulders are therefore very much the norm.

 

I understand that the first bits of the M90 north of the Forth Road Bridge were built without a hard shoulder, but that was because the rules in Scotland were different in those days.  However, the Kinross Bypass section still doesn't have them, though it does have lay-bys.  The one-mile-long M898 has never had hard shoulders, and isn't even long enough to justify lay-bys!

[Reorte]

3 minutes ago, ejstubbs said:

I understand that the first bits of the M90 north of the Forth Road Bridge were built without a hard shoulder, but that was because the rules in Scotland were different in those days.  However, the Kinross Bypass section still doesn't have them, though it does have lay-bys.  The one-mile-long M898 has never had hard shoulders, and isn't even long enough to justify lay-bys!

The tight bend on it getting on towards Perth is a good example of being below typical motorway standard but was permitted due to the lack of practical alternatives.