Driving standards

[PhilJ W]

34 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

To be fair, there are quite a few Spanish registered wagons who are every bit as bad. 

 

I don’t think the “platoon” drivers will be bothered by the back doors of the wagon in front, they will probably only be looking at the insides of their eyelids anyway....

 

 

Or more likely looking at their phones and texting.

[rockershovel]

6 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Or more likely looking at their phones and texting.

 

I wouldn't disagree with the suggestion....

 

on a serious note, there’s  a real problem here, of drivers who have no actual duties most of the time, and how it is to be regulated, I don’t care to predict. 

 

I heard some stories from an American colleague, about “platooning” trials over there. It seems there are studies of de-skilling drivers, of subdividing into drivers who just shuttle between exchange points and more skilled drivers who load and unload, drive in towns and loading docks and so forth. 

 

[caradoc]

Where will the hubs, at which the platoons form up, be located ? Presumably they will have to be immediately adjacent to motorway slip roads, otherwise platoons will be operating on non-motorway roads. And there will have to be separate hubs for forming and dividing platoons at motorway junctions.

 

It will also be interesting to see how a platoon will merge from a slip road onto the main carriageway.

 

[rockershovel]

30 minutes ago, caradoc said:

Where will the hubs, at which the platoons form up, be located ? Presumably they will have to be immediately adjacent to motorway slip roads, otherwise platoons will be operating on non-motorway roads. And there will have to be separate hubs for forming and dividing platoons at motorway junctions.

 

It will also be interesting to see how a platoon will merge from a slip road onto the main carriageway.

 

 

It isn’t difficult. I’ve been involved over the past year, in controlling the movements of drilling rig spreads comprising 15 to 20 loads, between U.K. and Netherlands. 

 

Off the top of my head... M20 Channel Tunnel Park, M20 J8 (Maidstone), M25 Clackett Lane and South Mimms. M1 Vauxhall (Luton), Toddington and J15a (Northampton) plus DIRFT and the numerous outlying light industrial estates around that area, some of which probably take platoons on their own. A1 Peterborough (Amazon) and Kate’s Cabin. Revive the former Blue Star services on the A1 near Bawtry, presently a derelict site. 

 

M6/M42 is a bit of a blind spot until you get to Strensham, but I’d guess that sites like Peugeot at Ryton would handle their own requirements. 

 

Moving North, A1 Fox Inn and  Ferrybridge. M18/M180, spoilt for choice. 

 

And thats without really looking anything up. It isn’t a problem. 

 

 

How would a platoon join from a sliproad? Same way they already do, barge out without regard for the rules of the road, I expect..

 

 

 

 

[Sidecar Racer]

8 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

How would a platoon join from a sliproad? Same way they already do, barge out without regard for the rules of the road, I expect..

 

 

 The simple answer is that they don't , they join as individuals and then platoon from there.

 

 A video here shows the concept , but I have never seen an M way with that little traffic on it .

 

 

[JDW]

I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about how it'll work. As the video above shows, they will just close up on motorways and run as platoons, there's nothing that involves lines of lorries to or from distribution centres along normal roads etc. 

 

I think there's also a lot of over-optimistic thinking about the practical reality. Yes, they have a point about slipstreaming saving fuel and reduced road space, but in actual real world conditions, things they show on the video are just not as simple as it makes out. for example, an obstruction ahead. The lead truck swerves, the others follow, which is great. unless, as is often the case, there are cars alongside trucks 2, 3, 4, which are then in danger. Obviously, there's still the danger around truck 1 hitting cars as it swerves, but the drivers of 2, 3, 4... will not be able to react because they won't know what's about to happen until the last second, hence three trucks swerving into lane 2. Likewise, where a car driver might be more aware of that danger with a 3-trailer road train where the rear will obviously follow the front, it is not necessarily obvious that all three trucks will swerve. 

 

I like how they show the trucks moving apart to let cars move in between too - unless the system can recognise a car indicating and wanting to pull in, how will it know? Or will the driver be expected to do this - though that's not what the video suggests? Also the fact that the following ones then speed up to catch the leader and close the gap: I can't imagine them running below the 56mph speed limit, so that wouldn't work. Either the leader has to slow down, or they travel below the speed limit the rest of the time to allow the followers to speed up.

 

It does seem like one of those ideas that is better on paper, and maybe in a few specialist applications, than a practical realistic solution. Monorails and maglev come to mind in railway terms.

[rockershovel]

Exactly so. If it doesn’t work in America, where conditions are ideal for it, why should it work on our crowded roads? 

[kevinlms]

53 minutes ago, Sidecar Racer said:

 

 The simple answer is that they don't , they join as individuals and then platoon from there.

 

 A video here shows the concept , but I have never seen an M way with that little traffic on it .

 

 

Found this on the same page.

 

 

[caradoc]

3 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

It isn’t difficult. I’ve been involved over the past year, in controlling the movements of drilling rig spreads comprising 15 to 20 loads, between U.K. and Netherlands. 

 

Off the top of my head... M20 Channel Tunnel Park, M20 J8 (Maidstone), M25 Clackett Lane and South Mimms. M1 Vauxhall (Luton), Toddington and J15a (Northampton) plus DIRFT and the numerous outlying light industrial estates around that area, some of which probably take platoons on their own. A1 Peterborough (Amazon) and Kate’s Cabin. Revive the former Blue Star services on the A1 near Bawtry, presently a derelict site. 

 

M6/M42 is a bit of a blind spot until you get to Strensham, but I’d guess that sites like Peugeot at Ryton would handle their own requirements. 

 

Moving North, A1 Fox Inn and  Ferrybridge. M18/M180, spoilt for choice. 

 

And thats without really looking anything up. It isn’t a problem.

 

How would a platoon join from a sliproad? Same way they already do, barge out without regard for the rules of the road, I expect..

 

 

Thanks for the info rockershovel, but what I meant was where in relation to the general road network will hubs be located, not which specific locations ! The concern being that in the small and congested UK, platoons of HGVs will surely be completely unsuitable, if not dangerous, to be operating on non-motorway roads, and will therefore require construction of hubs at motorway junctions. It follows therefore that platoons could only operate between those junctions provided with hubs. 

 

[Sidecar Racer]

10 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

Thanks for the info rockershovel, but what I meant was where in relation to the general road network will hubs be located, not which specific locations ! The concern being that in the small and congested UK, platoons of HGVs will surely be completely unsuitable, if not dangerous, to be operating on non-motorway roads, and will therefore require construction of hubs at motorway junctions. It follows therefore that platoons could only operate between those junctions provided with hubs. 

 

 

 I feel you are overthinking this , you seem to think that it will be an assortment of lorry's in a platoon ,

I think it will be a one company thing , eg , Tesco fleet , Asda fleet etc , as a lot of these big company's

already have distribution centers located close to M way junctions I can see some merit in the idea , for example ,

Morrisons have a huge distribution center on the edge of Bridgwater with easy accsess to the M5 , so if you have

several vehicles going to Cornwall or Devon for example , send them at the same time as far as Exeter where they

could then split to go to different local stores .

 

 Google earth view below shows this quite clearly .

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.1581003,-2.988497,2548m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

 

 

[PhilJ W]

The only way that I can see 'platooned' trucks operating in this country is if they are restricted to running overnight/off peak. With less other traffic it should ease any difficulties with entering and leaving motorways.

[raymw]

Morrisons sw distribution is right by the railway line. At what wasn't Sedgemoor public planning approval meeting, I raised that fact. Morrisons stated they had no intention of using the railway. TYHe fact is that that green field site sterilised that potential for a company that may have liked railway access. I was also told that the m5 never had traffic jams, making cars detour through Bridgwater (by a planning officer who was able to cycle to work. )

[JDW]

2 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

Thanks for the info rockershovel, but what I meant was where in relation to the general road network will hubs be located, not which specific locations ! The concern being that in the small and congested UK, platoons of HGVs will surely be completely unsuitable, if not dangerous, to be operating on non-motorway roads, and will therefore require construction of hubs at motorway junctions. It follows therefore that platoons could only operate between those junctions provided with hubs. 

 

 

They will not be operating on any non-motorway roads, nor will they be operating on any slip roads, joining roads, roads to distribution centres, specially built new hubs, etc etc. They will be entirely normal lorries driven exactly like every other lorry, until they are all on the motorway, and then the technology will allow them to close up and slipstream each other to save fuel and road space. Before leaving the motorway, they will separate to a normal distance again with individual drivers in full control of speed/braking. The individual drivers will still be on board and retain full control of steering as well as taking over if the technology should fail.

[Hobby]

Have they changed the speed limits for vehicles towing trailers? I only ask because I took Roger the Rover down the M5 today to a rally and was overtaken by everything towing something, from flatbed trailer to caravan and I was doing 65/70!

[rockershovel]

Re the various replies above, I’m sure that a significant amount of this traffic will be “block deliveries” to single destinations, who will handle the manoeuvring on their own sites. 

 

My point about the list of locations, is that HGV already have a network of locations where they refuel, take driver breaks and sometimes, exchange trailers. This will just be “more of the same”

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

16 hours ago, JDW said:

 

They will not be operating on any non-motorway roads, nor will they be operating on any slip roads, joining roads, roads to distribution centres, specially built new hubs, etc etc. They will be entirely normal lorries driven exactly like every other lorry, until they are all on the motorway, and then the technology will allow them to close up and slipstream each other to save fuel and road space. Before leaving the motorway, they will separate to a normal distance again with individual drivers in full control of speed/braking. The individual drivers will still be on board and retain full control of steering as well as taking over if the technology should fail.

The economic argument for fuel saving (although this may not be as great as claimed) is understandable, but what benefit do the transport operators gain from saving space. Increasing road capacity seems a obvious advantage, but the savings - other than journey time which cannot realistically be estimated because of the many other factors involved - are difficult to assess. 

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by Jol Wilkinson
Amended text

[kevinlms]

41 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The economic argument for fuel saving (although this may not be as great as claimed) is understandable, but what benefit do the transport operators gain from saving space. Increasing road capacity seems a obvious advantage, but the savings - other than journey time which cannot realistically be estimated because of the many other factors involved - are difficult to assess. 

 

Oh, they will pass the lower operating costs, onto you the consumer!

 

 

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The economic argument for fuel saving (although this may not be as great as claimed) is understandable, but what benefit do the transport operators gain from saving space. Increasing road capacity seems a obvious advantage, but the savings - other than journey time which cannot realistically be estimated because of the many other factors involved - are difficult to assess. 

 

 

The developers and suppliers are promoting this as a step towards driverless trucks in convoy, with a single driver in the lead vehicle, make no mistake about that.

 

They are also promoting it as reducing the down time concomitant on having a single driver who cannot sleep in the cab while moving, so when he is due a break, the whole rig stops; the platoon drives to the hub, and the driver takes his break or overnight while the “local” drivers shuttle to the loading bay. 

 

Lodging costs are reduced because there are less drivers. Wages are reduced because there are less drivers. 

 

The Americans are already considering downgrading the “open road” drivers and we need not expect that this is being done in the interests of securing their take home pay....

 

 

[Reorte]

25 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

The developers and suppliers are promoting this as a step towards driverless trucks in convoy, with a single driver in the lead vehicle, make no mistake about that.

 

Most likely, and like a lot of such developments that seem mainly driven by removing people I'm increasingly sceptical that they'll make the world a better place to live in.

[JDW]

I suspect the reality will be very different, or at least it will take a very long time to achieve. If running them as a convoy is the real aim, to save fuel and road space, the very simple technology of a road train already exists, and two-trailer HGVs are already permitted in places like Norway. Likewise, in Holland there are HGVs where the "tractor" unit carries a 20 foot ISO container, with a trailer carrying a 40/45 foot one. I suspect that other arguments such as those around drivers hours/fatigue/rest etc are just to bolster the idea and make it sound better. It reminds me a bit of the scheme to re-open Woodhead tunnel for a HGV-carrying train to avoid the Woodhead pass, almost a solution looking for a problem. That's not to say it won't work in some places, the long straight deserted roads of the USA or Australia for example, but here, it seems like it is being hyped to be more than it is.

 

I suspect too that the claimed fuel savings, just like the claimed MPG figures for cars, or range figures for electric vehicles, are at the high end of what has been achieved under test conditions, rather than realistic ones.

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, JDW said:

I suspect the reality will be very different, or at least it will take a very long time to achieve. If running them as a convoy is the real aim, to save fuel and road space, the very simple technology of a road train already exists, and two-trailer HGVs are already permitted in places like Norway. Likewise, in Holland there are HGVs where the "tractor" unit carries a 20 foot ISO container, with a trailer carrying a 40/45 foot one. I suspect that other arguments such as those around drivers hours/fatigue/rest etc are just to bolster the idea and make it sound better. It reminds me a bit of the scheme to re-open Woodhead tunnel for a HGV-carrying train to avoid the Woodhead pass, almost a solution looking for a problem. That's not to say it won't work in some places, the long straight deserted roads of the USA or Australia for example, but here, it seems like it is being hyped to be more than it is.

 

I suspect too that the claimed fuel savings, just like the claimed MPG figures for cars, or range figures for electric vehicles, are at the high end of what has been achieved under test conditions, rather than realistic ones.

 

False analogy, in various respects. 

 

The 40+20 container wagon is a function of the Dutch market for inter-port, or port-to-long distance transfers. 

 

The Norwegians have significant bulk road traffic in lumber and to a lesser extent, iron ore. The twin-trailer rigs are a special case of existing legislation covering logging trucks, in particular. 

 

 

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

 

Most likely, and like a lot of such developments that seem mainly driven by removing people I'm increasingly sceptical that they'll make the world a better place to live in.

 

I don’t recall seeing anywhere, that the latter point was the goal of anyone involved..

 

[PatB]

22 hours ago, raymw said:

Morrisons sw distribution is right by the railway line. At what wasn't Sedgemoor public planning approval meeting, I raised that fact. Morrisons stated they had no intention of using the railway. TYHe fact is that that green field site sterilised that potential for a company that may have liked railway access. I was also told that the m5 never had traffic jams, making cars detour through Bridgwater (by a planning officer who was able to cycle to work. )

That's interesting. When I lived nearby, Bridgwater used to jam up solid on a regular basis. Whilst the road layout has changed somewhat in the intervening 35 years I still can't see any obvious magical solutions. 

[Reorte]

3 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

I don’t recall seeing anywhere, that the latter point was the goal of anyone involved..

 

That's where the only significant savings will be. Almost always is where any form of automation starts getting involved (it's either that or to avoid putting people into unpleasant or dangerous situations where no-one really wants to be in the first place). What else is driverless trucks in convoy?

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, Reorte said:

That's where the only significant savings will be. Almost always is where any form of automation starts getting involved (it's either that or to avoid putting people into unpleasant or dangerous situations where no-one really wants to be in the first place). What else is driverless trucks in convoy?

 

Ermmm... I was meaning, that I don’t recall that making the world a better place to live in, was any part of the intention. I’m CERTAIN that eliminating people (and, incidentally, improving utilisation by doing so, because driverless trucks in convoy won’t be subject to tacho restrictions) is fully intended.