Driving standards

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

I would love to see a clip from the cyclists GoPro to see how bad (or otherwise) the quoted incident actually was.

The clip is embedded at the top of the BBC article. The cyclist looks to be about the right distance from the kerb, and the other two cars seen give them more distance. Nothing seen going the other way, so no reason for him to not move further over.

[jcredfer]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But they never do. The packs of weekend leisure cyclists are the worst offenders, not least because their higher speed - 20 mph on a 40 mph road - makes passing them as difficult as passing a tractor. At least with a slow moving tractor one can be reasonably confident that they will turn off at the next farm entrance.

 

Whilst I certainly agree about a number of those, "rather enthusiastic[?!]", weekend leisure cyclists, I always look for somewhere to pull over to allow cars to pass, with least delay.  Around here, I've also noticed that quite a sizable number of other cyclists do so, as well.  The smiles, waves and toots on the horn, from the passing drivers is great encouragement to repeat the behaviour, as well.

 

[woodenhead]

Just made a trip on the motorway, short hop and I wasn't going particularly fast - 60 mph - thing is I was still overtaking people.

 

It seems that the unintended benefit of high fuel prices is that everyone is slowing down to conserve fuel which of course reduces emissions which in high emission zones like cities is great for all concerned.

[ejstubbs]

12 minutes ago, Nick C said:

The cyclist looks to be about the right distance from the kerb, and the other two cars seen give them more distance. Nothing seen going the other way, so no reason for him to not move further over.

 

And the cyclist actually tucks closer in to the verge as the offender's vehicle passes, presumably because it was so close.

 

Based on that footage, I think the defence's assertion of 4ft clearance is generous at best  - possibly it was that much after the cyclist had taken avoiding action.  And as you say, there was nothing coming the other way so no reason not to have allowed more room.

 

48 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

It would seem that unless you are on a dual carriageway/motorway/sumptuously wide road you ain't never gonna pass a horse/cyclist/pedestrian

 

As someone who regularly passes cyclists safely*  on suburban roads, I'm happy to call that out as exaggerated nonsense in the case of cyclists.  Likewise passing pedestrians and horse riders on country roads without footways (I don't believe that the 2m rule applies to pedestrians on a separate footway, in the same way that the 1.5m rule doesn't apply to cyclists in physically segregated cycle lanes).

 

I do agree that a degree of consideration from non motor vehicle users is helpful.  I don't think there can be much doubt that Highway Code Rule 169 applies to all road users - it's in the "Using the road" section of the code which is not specific to any particular category of road user (unlike the preceding "Rules for..." sections).  The actual wording of rule 169 is:

 

Do not hold up a long queue of traffic, especially if you are driving a large or slow-moving vehicle. Check your mirrors frequently, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass.

 

Note the use of the word "especially": the rule is about not holding up a queue of traffic, and it applies to all road users, not just drivers of large or slow-moving vehicles (which is open to interpretation anyway).  You could be doing 50mph on a derestricted single carriageway but if there is a queue of people behind you who want to go faster - as they are legally entitled to do, road conditions etc permitting - then you're supposed to let them pass.

 

However, the idea expressed elsewhere on this thread that the police are mustard at dealing with slow-moving motor vehicles I find somewhat laughable, having been stuck in queues behind agricultural vehicles and HGVs on rural roads with laybys and other usable passing places more times than I can remember, and with nary a police officer in sight.  It's a rare breath of fresh air when one does pull in to let the queue disperse a bit.  (Some of the worst offenders seem to be the tractors that are permitted to do 40mph, since the drivers seem to regard that as being fast enough not to count as being obstructive.  Maybe they work on the basis that they're no slower than an HGV but, as is clear in rule 169, it's not how slow you're actually going, it's whether there's a queue of people being held up behind you that matters.)

 

And just in case anyone thinks that I somehow believe that cyclists can do no wrong: I completely agree that random "peletons" of leisure riders can be problematic, and that they should in general be more considerate of other road users both in choice of routes and in complying with Highway Code Rule 169.  That they all too frequently aren't is IMO partly due to the widespread use of modern tools like Strava which make it easy for people to chase their "personal best" and compare their times against other riders - which always struck me as being contrary to at least the spirit of the laws against informal time-trialling on public roads, if not the letter.  But what do I know...

 

*  As someone who regularly gets on a bike myself, I believe I'm adequately qualified to make that judgement.

[boxbrownie]

46 minutes ago, jcredfer said:

 

Whilst I certainly agree about a number of those, "rather enthusiastic[?!]", weekend leisure cyclists, I always look for somewhere to pull over to allow cars to pass, with least delay.  Around here, I've also noticed that quite a sizable number of other cyclists do so, as well.  The smiles, waves and toots on the horn, from the passing drivers is great encouragement to repeat the behaviour, as well.

 

In all my years of driving I have never, ever seen a cyclist pull over and let traffic pass…..horse riders, tractors even slow moving HGV loads have given way but a cyclist, never.

 

Just an observation.

[jcredfer]

52 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

In all my years of driving I have never, ever seen a cyclist pull over and let traffic pass…..horse riders, tractors even slow moving HGV loads have given way but a cyclist, never.

 

Just an observation.

 

Goodness gracious, that's really sad for the car users...   and absolutely disgraceful, on the part of the cyclists, too.  They're on a, comparatively, slow moving cycle, what is a few seconds going to add to any route they might be taking, anyway.  Mindless!!

 

1 hour ago, ejstubbs said:

I completely agree that random "peletons" of leisure riders can be problematic, and that they should in general be more considerate of other road users both in choice of routes and in complying with Highway Code Rule 169.  That they all too frequently aren't is IMO partly due to the widespread use of modern tools like Strava which make it easy for people to chase their "personal best" and compare their times against other riders - which always struck me as being contrary to at least the spirit of the laws against informal time-trialling on public roads, if not the letter.

 

Couldn't agree more about those who use the roads, unsuited as most of them are, for that type of cycling.  It seems to carry, with it, the behaviour that they presume to have some sort of high priority right of way, both on or off roads.

 

[SamThomas]

4 hours ago, Reorte said:

Does it have to be proven to that level of proof? IANAL so may have gotten this completely wrong but whilst criminal cases need to be proven beyond reasonable doubt civil cases might only require on the balance of probability. Quite what offences such as this are I don't know (I don't really know the difference between civil and criminal cases).

Personally I think it does need to be proven beyound reasonable doubt otherwise we will have different standards accros the country.

 

If you go to a Magistrates Court you will be in a more formal setting than a County Court. In a Magistrates Court you will be withing the Criminal Justice System - in a County Court you will be within the Civil Law System.

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, ejstubbs said:

As someone who regularly passes cyclists safely*  on suburban roads, I'm happy to call that out as exaggerated nonsense in the case of cyclists.  Likewise passing pedestrians and horse riders on country roads without footways (I don't believe that the 2m rule applies to pedestrians on a separate footway, in the same way that the 1.5m rule doesn't apply to cyclists in physically segregated cycle lanes).

 

I do agree that a degree of consideration from non motor vehicle users is helpful.  I don't think there can be much doubt that Highway Code Rule 169 applies to all road users - it's in the "Using the road" section of the code which is not specific to any particular category of road user (unlike the preceding "Rules for..." sections).  The actual wording of rule 169 is:

 

Agreed - it's perfectly safe to overtake a cyclist even on a relatively narrow country lane, as long as you're both sensible about it. If you can't give the full 1.5m, then slow down further - or wait until you can. 

 

1 hour ago, ejstubbs said:

I completely agree that random "peletons" of leisure riders can be problematic, and that they should in general be more considerate of other road users both in choice of routes and in complying with Highway Code Rule 169.  That they all too frequently aren't is IMO partly due to the widespread use of modern tools like Strava which make it easy for people to chase their "personal best" and compare their times against other riders - which always struck me as being contrary to at least the spirit of the laws against informal time-trialling on public roads, if not the letter.  But what do I know...

There's a road near here that's regularly used for cycling time trials on a Sunday morning, whether they are officially organised or not I have no idea. There seems to be a difference in attitude between those cyclists who are cycling as a means of transport, and those doing so purely for leisure - it tends to be a subset of the latter who act as if they own the road - and then come into conflict with the high-end SUV drivers who have the same opinion!

[SamThomas]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

In all my years of driving I have never, ever seen a cyclist pull over and let traffic pass…..horse riders, tractors even slow moving HGV loads have given way but a cyclist, never.

 

Just an observation.

In all fairness on a couple of single track roads round here most cyclists do pull over into the passing places.

[Reorte]

10 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

In all fairness on a couple of single track roads round here most cyclists do pull over into the passing places.

Going up a hill I take care to always collapse on to the verge rather than the road. But I'm inevitably pushing the bike by that stage anyway.

[Compound2632]

31 minutes ago, Nick C said:

There seems to be a difference in attitude between those cyclists who are cycling as a means of transport, and those doing so purely for leisure - it tends to be a subset of the latter who act as if they own the road - and then come into conflict with the high-end SUV drivers who have the same opinion!

 

My problem is that I'm the one in the Zafira 1.6 stuck behind the peleton with the irate high-end SUV driver tailgating me...

Edited June 16, 2022 by Compound2632
Inserted "driver" - they're the one who is irate, not the vehicle. I think.

[MarkC]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

My problem is that I'm the one in the Zafira 1.6 stuck behind the peleton with the irate high-end SUV driver tailgating me...

In that situation, I'd be inclined to let the irate SUV driver past me & let them annoy the **** out of the peleton...

[PhilJ W]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

My problem is that I'm the one in the Zafira 1.6 stuck behind the peleton with the irate high-end SUV tailgating me...

In that circumstance I'd let the SUV pass me at the earliest opportunity. @MarkC beat me to it.

[Ian Smeeton]

6 hours ago, SamThomas said:

Whilst agreeing that it can be diffecult to overtake cyclist safely on many road (especially with an HGV) if a cyslist feels unpleasant with a queue of traffic then they have the option to pull over & let the traffic pass.

 

I believe that it is also in the Highjway Code that slower moving vehicles (does that include pushbikes ?) should pull over where & when safe to allow a queue of tailing traffic to pass.

 

Works both ways - drivers & cyclists have to share the roads & a bit more give & take would not go amiss.

 

I would love to see a clip from the cyclists GoPro to see how bad (or otherwise) the quoted incident actually was.

 

The clip is in the BBC link.

 

Just hit the arrow in the photo at the top of the article.

 

Regards

 

Ian

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, MarkC said:

In that situation, I'd be inclined to let the irate SUV driver past me & let them annoy the **** out of the peleton...

 

4 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

In that circumstance I'd let the SUV pass me at the earliest opportunity. @MarkC beat me to it.

 

Indeed. But remember that there are several more Audis behind me...

 

If it wasn't for the cyclists in front of me I'd be driving at the 40 mph limit and the Audis would still be tailgating me. For my part, I don't see quite what the urgency is to join the queue of traffic into Henley. (The particular stretch of road I have in mind here is the A321 between Wargrave and Henley.)

[PhilJ W]

I have had a lycra clad cyclist deliberately pull into the centre of the road in front of me rather than move over to let me pass. 

[MarkC]

13 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

I have had a lycra clad cyclist deliberately pull into the centre of the road in front of me rather than move over to let me pass. 

That's where dashcams would come in handy - especially if you can catch their fizzog clearly in shot. Beat them at their own game... 

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, jcredfer said:

 

Goodness gracious, that's really sad for the car users...   and absolutely disgraceful, on the part of the cyclists, too.  They're on a, comparatively, slow moving cycle, what is a few seconds going to add to any route they might be taking, anyway.  Mindless!!

 

An honest observation, without any complaining regarding the cyclist’s actions and it’s hit back with a subtle but insulting condescending comment.

 

That’s mindless.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by boxbrownie

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, SamThomas said:

In all fairness on a couple of single track roads round here most cyclists do pull over into the passing places.

Since moving to Cornwall in our particular area we don’t get very many cyclists at all, those we do we always overtake safely because 90% of them will indeed be pushing their bikes up the hill but on the downhill sections the cars have trouble keeping up with the cyclists to be fair, I assume the cyclists can see around the corners we drivers cannot at that speed 😄

 

I think most of the bikes we see being carried on the racks behind cars are used primarily in the campsite, although I believe the Moors get a fair number of bike traffic during Summer.

[boxbrownie]

39 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

I have had a lycra clad cyclist deliberately pull into the centre of the road in front of me rather than move over to let me pass. 

I believe that is what they are told to do to make safe progress, if traffic cannot overtake they cannot cut the cyclist up……seems a recipe for confrontation though and no way to ease the multi use of crowded roads.

[JJGraphics]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

Indeed. But remember that there are several more Audis behind me...

 

If it wasn't for the cyclists in front of me I'd be driving at the 40 mph limit and the Audis would still be tailgating me. For my part, I don't see quite what the urgency is to join the queue of traffic into Henley. (The particular stretch of road I have in mind here is the A321 between Wargrave and Henley.)

 

Know that section of road well and whilst the cyclists can be a real PITA, mostly at the weekend, the "we own the road" Audi and BMW drivers are much more of a danger. Last Sunday my wife and I were on the way to Henley when we were confronted by an Audi tank three-quarters of the way across on the wrong side of the road on the way out of Wargrave.

He had mis-judged the bend and nearly lost control. I took to the verge and I don't think there was much more than the thickness of a coat of paint between his vehicle and mine as we passed. There was a great screech of tyres and a cloud of smoke as he managed to stop some way behind us before rear-ending the queue of vehicles waiting to go into Wargrave.

John

 

[boxbrownie]

21 minutes ago, JJGraphics said:

 

Know that section of road well and whilst the cyclists can be a real PITA, mostly at the weekend, the "we own the road" Audi and BMW drivers are much more of a danger. Last Sunday my wife and I were on the way to Henley when we were confronted by an Audi tank three-quarters of the way across on the wrong side of the road on the way out of Wargrave.

He had mis-judged the bend and nearly lost control. I took to the verge and I don't think there was much more than the thickness of a coat of paint between his vehicle and mine as we passed. There was a great screech of tyres and a cloud of smoke as he managed to stop some way behind us before rear-ending the queue of vehicles waiting to go into Wargrave.

John

 

It was either a very old Audi or the ABS wasn’t working I assume?

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, JJGraphics said:

the "we own the road" Audi and BMW drivers are much more of a danger.

 

When overtaken by such on a bend, I usually give vent to an inward shout of "see you in the ditch". But it is true that they only need about a quarter of the length of road I need to overtake safely!

[boxbrownie]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

When overtaken by such on a bend, I usually give vent to an inward shout of "see you in the ditch". But it is true that they only need about a quarter of the length of road I need to overtake safely!

I fear a lot of the bigger EVs we see on the road will get tarred with the same (own the road and bad driving) brush as the Audi and BMW are now, virtually every expensive EV (and previously expensive Audi/BMW) will be on the road driven by business users due the the ridiculously cheap BIK tax advantages given to these vehicles and their drivers.

 

Every trip is a race against the clock/target/bonus etc.

[johnofwessex]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-61813986

 

Surely they should be banned?

 

These people are clearly not fit to hold a licence