Driving standards

[Deeps]

On 15/01/2024 at 09:09, Deeps said:

I see there is quite a lot of discussion in the media regarding potholes. Where I live they are certainly a problem although, ironically, along our lane they act as traffic calming measures!

Further to my last, and perhaps we need a thread devoted to potholes, I am obliged to report the sad state of our motorways. I have been up to my daughters in Manchester for the past few weeks, driving along the M5 & M6. The amount of potholes were decidedly excessive, to the point that, in my opinion, these motorways are not fit for purpose. I do not know what the general standards are for motorways across the country but I imagine they will be similar. 

 

Living in Cornwall I am well used to rough back lanes with deep potholes but whilst they may result in relatively expensive tyre/suspension repairs they don’t (usually) present a risk to life. Hitting a similar sized pothole on a motorway, whilst doing 70, certainly presents a risk to life and as far as I’m concerned a failure to properly maintain the surface is a crime.

 

The inner lanes of the M5 & M6 were so bad that I spent most of my time, contrary to my normal standards, hogging the centre lanes. My humblest apologies to anyone I may have inconvenienced.

 

Now, who do I report these issues to?

[Kris]

2 minutes ago, Deeps said:

Further to my last, and perhaps we need a thread devoted to potholes, I am obliged to report the sad state of our motorways. I have been up to my daughters in Manchester for the past few weeks, driving along the M5 & M6. The amount of potholes were decidedly excessive, to the point that, in my opinion, these motorways are not fit for purpose. I do not know what the general standards are for motorways across the country but I imagine they will be similar. 

 

Living in Cornwall I am well used to rough back lanes with deep potholes but whilst they may result in relatively expensive tyre/suspension repairs they don’t (usually) present a risk to life. Hitting a similar sized pothole on a motorway, whilst doing 70, certainly presents a risk to life and as far as I’m concerned a failure to properly maintain the surface is a crime.

 

The inner lanes of the M5 & M6 were so bad that I spent most of my time, contrary to my normal standards, hogging the centre lanes. My humblest apologies to anyone I may have inconvenienced.

 

Now, who do I report these issues to?

You report the potholes on motorways and some main a roads (A30 / A38 in Cornwall) to the highways agency. https://report.nationalhighways.co.uk 

[Deeps]

3 minutes ago, Kris said:

You report the potholes on motorways and some main a roads (A30 / A38 in Cornwall) to the highways agency. https://report.nationalhighways.co.uk 

Thank you. I have successfully reported local potholes to Cornwall Council in the past but the online app usually asks for the specific location. The problem I have in this case is that I would need to report several hundred miles of problems, not just the odd pothole. I may try using your link when I have time but I rather fancy I will give up in frustration.

[Jol Wilkinson]

It is not just the road surfaces that make the UK road system unfit for purpose. Traffic density is a major factor and shows that the road capacity either needs increasing and'or motorists need to be deterred from using them.

 

Last Friday we travelled form Felixstowe to Bath (we had a  family event during Saturday and it was the only day to travel to fit around the event). We took 25 minutes to travel the last three miles to get off the A12 onto the M25 (the roundabout was completely clogged There had also been a delay in the perpetual roadworks near Colchester). Further delays occurred approaching the M11 junction of the M25, between Chorleywood and the M4 Junction (both common in my experience). The M25 has too many junctions and therefore a lot of "local" traffic.

 

The M4 delay was largely restricted to a contraflow system, apparently for work on overbridges but the workers were presumably taking the day off and had tidied up as there were no signs of equipment, etc. Road repairs seem to take an excessively long time, often with long sections closed/coned off while work is taking place in a small length. So  a notional four hour journey took over 5 1/2 hours (excluding comfort breaks).

 

 

[Reorte]

6 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

It is not just the road surfaces that make the UK road system unfit for purpose. Traffic density is a major factor and shows that the road capacity either needs increasing and'or motorists need to be deterred from using them.

The road surfaces feel like another case of dropping proper routine maintenance, something that's plagued all areas of the UK in recent years.

 

I'd argue that that aside the road network isn't unfit for purpose, it's the amount of traffic that's unfit for anything. No point in increasing road capacity unless there's also some plan (and not of the control freak variety) that results in a stop of the growth of traffic, otherwise you're just caught in an endless vicious circle that leads to an ever worse country to live in, with ever more and larger *?@£ being built over it in an endless game of catch-up.

[Compound2632]

31 minutes ago, Reorte said:

some plan (and not of the control freak variety) that results in a stop of the growth of traffic

 

But there is a plan: allowing the road system to fall into disrepair will reduce traffic. "No roads, no cars." 

[GrumpyPenguin]

When complaining about the traffic remember - YOU are the traffic !

[Enterprisingwestern]

8 minutes ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

When complaining about the traffic remember - YOU are the traffic !

 

But it's always the other drivers that are causing the problem!

 

Mike.

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

When complaining about the traffic remember - YOU are the traffic !

Depends really. If you've been travelling the same route for years and it was once reasonably quiet it's not you that's changed anything that's made it bad.

 

I don't like being stuck in traffic any more than the next person but I usually find the "solutions" (i.e. building more roads) even more unpleasant.

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, Reorte said:

The road surfaces feel like another case of dropping proper routine maintenance, something that's plagued all areas of the UK in recent years.

 

I'd argue that that aside the road network isn't unfit for purpose, it's the amount of traffic that's unfit for anything. No point in increasing road capacity unless there's also some plan (and not of the control freak variety) that results in a stop of the growth of traffic, otherwise you're just caught in an endless vicious circle that leads to an ever worse country to live in, with ever more and larger *?@£ being built over it in an endless game of catch-up.

 

One of the problems that causes these issues is that insufficient funds are available, we all dislike paying tax and whatever government is in power never likes raising taxes especially in the run up to elections.

 

Secondly bigger heavier cars and lorries cause more damage than smaller cars and lorries, again the problem could be in our own hands in that these heavier vehicles perhaps should be paying more into the pot to cover the damage they cause

 

Thirdly the determination for net zero or being green by dropping oil propulsion to electric propulsion is flooding the roads with very heavy electric vehicles, which have the unfortunate trait of wearing out the roads quicker than lighter petrol/diesel vehicles

 

Simply by solving one issue we make another. Perhaps we all should look in the mirror at what our actions do to others ? 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, hayfield said:

Thirdly the determination for net zero or being green by dropping oil propulsion to electric propulsion is flooding the roads with very heavy electric vehicles, which have the unfortunate trait of wearing out the roads quicker than lighter petrol/diesel vehicles

 

Myth. See:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/mar/25/are-electric-cars-too-heavy-for-british-roads-bridges-and-car-parks#:~:text=Extra weight from electric cars,add to road maintenance costs.

From which I take that the additional wear from heavier private vehicles is small compared to the wear from commercial vehicles such as HGVs and PSVs. 

 

Before condemning EVs, consider the trend towards larger ICE vehicles such as SUVs. 

[admiles]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Myth. See:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/mar/25/are-electric-cars-too-heavy-for-british-roads-bridges-and-car-parks#:~:text=Extra weight from electric cars,add to road maintenance costs.

From which I take that the additional wear from heavier private vehicles is small compared to the wear from commercial vehicles such as HGVs and PSVs. 

 

Before condemning EVs, consider the trend towards larger ICE vehicles such as SUVs. 

 

Ok, remove the HGVs from the roads.....bit of a problem there.  There's no getting away from the fact that EVs are heavier currently (better battery technology one day should change this) than the equivalent ICE powered car. More weight does more damage to the roads. 

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Myth. See:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/mar/25/are-electric-cars-too-heavy-for-british-roads-bridges-and-car-parks#:~:text=Extra weight from electric cars,add to road maintenance costs.

From which I take that the additional wear from heavier private vehicles is small compared to the wear from commercial vehicles such as HGVs and PSVs. 

 

Before condemning EVs, consider the trend towards larger ICE vehicles such as SUVs. 

 

 

I was referring to pot holes within the first few lines 

 

"The Asphalt Industry Alliance has claimed that smaller roads could be vulnerable to increased pothole formation, "

 

Within a few paragraphs

 

"Heavier vehicles mean there is more friction between tyres and road, and more stress on whatever is below the car. That means roads deteriorate quicker. Academics at the University of Edinburgh in 2022 calculated that there could be between 20% and 40% additional road wear – think potholes, the driver’s bane – associated with battery vehicles compared with internal combustion engines."

 

Hardly a myth

 

As for carbon emissions, I would like to see the difference between buying a nearly new small petrol car verses a brand new average size EV, as far as total affect to global warming.

[hayfield]

12 minutes ago, admiles said:

 

Ok, remove the HGVs from the roads.....bit of a problem there.  There's no getting away from the fact that EVs are heavier currently (better battery technology one day should change this) than the equivalent ICE powered car. More weight does more damage to the roads. 

 

 

Agree HGV's are normally bulk delivery, more like ban the school run and make the little ones walk with their parents as we used to do 

[Reorte]

23 minutes ago, admiles said:

 

Ok, remove the HGVs from the roads.....bit of a problem there.  There's no getting away from the fact that EVs are heavier currently (better battery technology one day should change this) than the equivalent ICE powered car. More weight does more damage to the roads. 

True enough,  but when the damage is largely caused by much heavier vehicles the difference between ICE and electric is a drop in the ocean.

[Nick C]

14 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

 

I was referring to pot holes within the first few lines 

 

"The Asphalt Industry Alliance has claimed that smaller roads could be vulnerable to increased pothole formation, "

 

Within a few paragraphs

 

"Heavier vehicles mean there is more friction between tyres and road, and more stress on whatever is below the car. That means roads deteriorate quicker. Academics at the University of Edinburgh in 2022 calculated that there could be between 20% and 40% additional road wear – think potholes, the driver’s bane – associated with battery vehicles compared with internal combustion engines."

 

Hardly a myth

 

As for carbon emissions, I would like to see the difference between buying a nearly new small petrol car verses a brand new average size EV, as far as total affect to global warming.

I have to say I wouldn't put too much faith in a study that didn't actually carry out any real-world tests (see the next paragraph after the one you quoted...)

 

I agree with your last comment - all the studies I've seen so far are only comparing new-with-new, and usually make so many assumptions or omissions as to be utterly useless...

[hayfield]

15 minutes ago, Nick C said:

I have to say I wouldn't put too much faith in a study that didn't actually carry out any real-world tests (see the next paragraph after the one you quoted...)

 

I agree with your last comment - all the studies I've seen so far are only comparing new-with-new, and usually make so many assumptions or omissions as to be utterly useless...

 

 

Nick

 

I think in this case its an experts view on known values.

 

Will my Nissan Micra do more damage than a vechial 3 or 4 times heavier?. We all know the answer and with known information available to an expert, it would be quite close to the correct figure, real world will give the exact numbers

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, hayfield said:

Will my Nissan Micra do more damage than a vechial 3 or 4 times heavier?. We all know the answer and with known information available to an expert, it would be quite close to the correct figure, real world will give the exact numbers

 

Yes, but, as @Reorte reiterates, both are insignificant compared to the damage done by HGVs.

 

I agree it is hard for the lay person to be confident that they are reaching the right conclusion, on account of the insidious propaganda put out by the anti-environmentalist, climate change denying, anti-EV lobby.  

[Guest]

Anyhoo. The Dacia Spring is electric and weighs about the same as a petrol Smart car.

[kevinlms]

46 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

 

Agree HGV's are normally bulk delivery, more like ban the school run and make the little ones walk with their parents as we used to do 

There is uproar in Melbourne, because a private school has had parking restrictions (permit only trial for 6 months) in the surrounding streets, by the local council. Now people are complaining that it's dangerous to walk the kids to school from 2 streets away, due to crossing roads and vehicles coming out of driveways - the ones they normally block!

[kevinlms]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But there is a plan: allowing the road system to fall into disrepair will reduce traffic. "No roads, no cars." 

The other thing to remember, is that if a particular road has it's speed limit reduced, it's likely that the standard of maintenance will be lower. Of course if people travel at the old speed limit, then it's their own fault, if tyres, wheels or suspension gets damaged, according to the relevant road authority.

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

The other thing to remember, is that if a particular road has it's speed limit reduced, it's likely that the standard of maintenance will be lower. Of course if people travel at the old speed limit, then it's their own fault, if tyres, wheels or suspension gets damaged, according to the relevant road authority.

 

Equally, less wear at lower speeds - justifying reduced maintenance. Several 30 mph roads round here have been resurfaced in the last couple of years - I feel sure this has made them less safe for pedestrians by increasing the proportion of vehicles going at 40 mph!

[Deeps]

My comments concerning potholes on motorways seems to have generated quite a bit of discussion. One aspect of my experience was missing from the post; I avoid long distance journeys by road if at all possible but the alternatives are becoming intolerable.

 

Recently, when travelling up to Manchester to stay with our daughter, we have gone by rail and with our Senior Railcards it can be cheaper than using the car. Fine on paper but the pain and grief associated with strikes, packed carriages, delays/cancellations, no heating on trains in winter, no air conditioning on trains in summer and being accosted by beggars in Birmingham New Street put us off railways for good. Interestingly, we usually end up getting our fares reimbursed due to late running!

 

Last year we gave National Express a go. Cornwall to Manchester involves changes at Bristol and Birmingham, both of which were plagued with more beggars and the toilets were disgusting. Apart from the fact that we were at least guaranteed a seat the time taken made us decide to go by car in future.

 

We haven’t looked at going by air but Cornwall isn’t blessed with useful airports. So, the car it is and I suspect many of the other drivers joining me in traffic jams on the M60 etc. had probably come to this decision as well. Sort out public transport such that it becomes a no-brainer to use it, rather than the car, and I suspect the situation on the roads might actually improve.

 

Rant over.

[admiles]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

 

Agree HGV's are normally bulk delivery, more like ban the school run and make the little ones walk with their parents as we used to do 

 

Banning the school run opens up a whole other can of worms though. Lots of parents have to drive their kids to school (I do).  In my case a 6 year old is too young to go on the bus on their own.

 

Walking to school "like you used to" only works if your kids are at a local school. Lots of children now aren't due to lack of school places. Lot's also now go to before and after school clubs as both parents have to work to keep a roof over their heads!

[admiles]

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

The other thing to remember, is that if a particular road has it's speed limit reduced, it's likely that the standard of maintenance will be lower. Of course if people travel at the old speed limit, then it's their own fault, if tyres, wheels or suspension gets damaged, according to the relevant road authority.

 

I think that depends on the level of pothole you're talking about. Some in the UK now are getting so bad driving through them at any speed will damage cars.  As a motorcyclist too hitting a pothole, even at low speeds,  is like being punched in the chest. Hit one on a corner while leaning over or in the dark where you have very little notice could quite easily be fatal. 

 

Having cars suffering blown tyres, cracked wheels, damaged suspension etc isn't conducive to safe motoring. There have been lots of cases of this locally in the last few years.

Edited April 17 by admiles