Lewes - Network SouthEast in 1987

[Grizz]

TA DA....... Lewes Box

 

 

Lewes station, platform 4 Blue and Grey 4 CIG.

 

[South Central]

There were definitely some blue and grey EPB workings along the East Coast way Brighton to Seaford. I was on one such service on a four car one afternoon in 1987 when a huge summer thunder storm knocked out the BR traction supply. We were stranded for over an hour on the down road about half way between Southerham Junction and Southease. The non corridor stock and lack of loos was beginning to cause 'issues' by the time the juice was restored. As was the gale force winds, driving rain and lightening. Still we made it in the end, good old EPBs. These were in the good old days of jointed track and drop down windows, without the idiot bars fitted to stop moronic normals getting their heads knocked off.

 

There was a lunchtime parcels working using a Bulleid EPB, Redhill PO Dock to Eastbourne via Brighton, which then worked back to Brighton in passenger service on one of the hourly Eastbourne-Brighton '43' stoppers in lieu of a CIG/VEP, calling at Lewes around 3pm. You could spot it in the timetable as it was marked as second-class only. By the sounds of it, it had time for a round trip to Seaford before working back up to 'the smoke'.

 

Incidentally at the same time further along the coast, there was a short-lived diagram for an SED EPB to work a Tonbridge-Hastings stopper in the morning peak, returning e.c.s. So you could 'cop' at least two suburban units on the Sussex coast in one day! Compare that to the great excitement last week when pairs of 455s appeared at Brighton two nights in a row...how times change!

[Grizz]

So glad some of my brain still recalls correctly. EPBs had incredibly loud compressors as I recall. Also the heating always seemed pretty good and it smelt of heated metal when really hot, if that makes sense. The were reliable in the snow because the shoe beams were much bigger and more solid that the CIGs, BIGs and VEPs. However that said I remember jumping out around Sanderstead once when a securing bolt fell out and the shoe beam dropped down. I helped the crew rope it back on so we could limp to Oxted. We used a ball of thick green hairy string, kindly donated from a green house, by a very interested elderly lady as she peered over her back fence at the commotion. Happy days.

 

So at Lewes we have CIGs, VEPs, BIGs, 2 or 4 EPBs, CEPs, MLVs, DEMUs of every SR type, 09s, 33s, 73s, occasional 47s, later on 56s, 58s, 60s. Very rarely 37s in late sectorisation times. Chipman weed killing train, based up the road in Horsham, which had 20s on in 1991, not sure when they started though.

 

In the early 80s I once saw a single blue 73 with a BR standard brake van in tow trundle at very slow speed through Cooksbridge on the Down road in the middle of the day. On the back veranda was a bloke with a large watering can pouring out a water type liquid into the six foot / opposite road. The bloke next to him was there handing him more full cans as he went. Still not sure to this day what it was they were doing, possibly low productivity weed killing? Still would make a great modelling scenario.

[Mike Storey]

So glad some of my brain still recalls correctly. EPBs had incredibly loud compressors as I recall. Also the heating always seemed pretty good and it smelt of heated metal when really hot, if that makes sense. The were reliable in the snow because the shoe beams were much bigger and more solid that the CIGs, BIGs and VEPs. However that said I remember jumping out around Sanderstead once when a securing bolt fell out and the shoe beam dropped down. I helped the crew rope it back on so we could limp to Oxted. We used a ball of thick green hairy string, kindly donated from a green house, by a very interested elderly lady as she peered over her back fence at the commotion. Happy days.

 

So at Lewes we have CIGs, VEPs, BIGs, 2 or 4 EPBs, CEPs, MLVs, DEMUs of every SR type, 09s, 33s, 73s, occasional 47s, later on 56s, 58s, 60s. Very rarely 37s in late sectorisation times. Chipman weed killing train, based up the road in Horsham, which had 20s on in 1991, not sure when they started though.

 

In the early 80s I once saw a single blue 73 with a BR standard brake van in tow trundle at very slow speed through Cooksbridge on the Down road in the middle of the day. On the back veranda was a bloke with a large watering can pouring out a water type liquid into the six foot / opposite road. The bloke next to him was there handing him more full cans as he went. Still not sure to this day what it was they were doing, possibly low productivity weed killing? Still would make a great modelling scenario.

 

I'm pretty sure that 4 CAPs (converted 2HAPs) were in much evidence too, especially on the Seafords? Or was that more on West Coastway?

[South Central]

I'm pretty sure that 4 CAPs (converted 2HAPs) were in much evidence too, especially on the Seafords? Or was that more on West Coastway?

 

The CAPs went to Ramsgate in 1984, and then Gillingham a few years later by which time they were lumped in with the 'Kent Link' fleet of EPBs and were in a truly appalling state. 

[Mike Storey]

The CAPs went to Ramsgate in 1984, and then Gillingham a few years later by which time they were lumped in with the 'Kent Link' fleet of EPBs and were in a truly appalling state. 

 

Thanks - I must be remembering them in Kent then! Doh!

[Grizz]

CAPs.....were they 2 x 2 car units permanently coupled together? It's just that I have a memory sticking my head out of the window of a suburban unit in Blue n Grey at platform 1 at Brighton. I thought they were EPBs as I pelted down the platform to jump in. I was in the 3 coach of a 4 car train from the buffers and looked back towards the gate line. Then I noticed that there were two cabs between coaches 2 & 3 but the ends of the cabs were painted completely black where they would normally have been painted yellow.

 

Around the same time I also saw the same type of units, again with the inner cab ends painted fully black stabled on the sidings adjacent to plat 1 at Brighton and also in the bay platform at Southampton. Again didn't have my camera and took no notes.

 

Any ideas anyone. Likely to have worked over to Lewes if they were in regular use on coast way services?

 

Also does anyone remember the floor collapsing in the waiting rooms on platform 1 at Lewes? They were out of use for a few years for the big station referubishment and the demolition during early Railtrack days as I recall.

 

I do remember that when I first started on the Central the black finger destination boards were still stored in the boxes on the platforms at Lewes. When the first electric 'flip over' ones came in to use I had a load of them as I knew the SM at Lewes who just wanted rid of them and told me to take as many as I liked as they were heading for a skip. I even had one that came from Platform 4 that had just Falmer, London Road and Brighton, before Moulsecombe was built.

Sadly just a few years later I sold them all at railway open day to a collector for £50, there were at least 30 boards and £50 was a lot of money at the time

Of all the Enamel signs I took way away with me that day the only ones I didn't sell were 5 limited clearance signs, a 'Eastbourne and Hastings Trains' square sign and a very large two part 'BR white with black writing' style 'Southerham Junction' sign. It is in very good condition and was possibly only in place for a few years before all enamel signs were replaced by plastic type ones.

 

South Central........At Lewes, occasionally but fairly rarely, there were 'Grampus' and the odd 'shock' wagon sabled in the wall siding probably following weekend Engineering works, loaded with spoil, but never new ballast. I never saw them arrive or depart Lewes so it always remained a bit of mystery. The would have run as required due to the possessions though, perhaps someone else can shed light if photos are available?

[number6]

Flippin' eck Grizz! I'd have bitten your hand off for one of those boards. A neighbour of mine in Lewes has one of the black text on white Lewes name signs from the 70s on her wall in her garden. She just asked a bloke who was removing them if she could have one - job done. 

 

I just had a repressed memory which concerns the aggregate train - probably 1984ish - as we were walking home from school over the bridge a single Crompton was running down platform 5 sandwiched between some of the hoppers, maybe two the Brighton side and one east, ahead of the loco. The rest of the hoppers were stood in platform 4. Don't remember if it was loaded or empty and have never quite worked out how it got into that position - possibly something went wrong when picking up or dropping off a cripple hopper in that siding perhaps. The shunter at Lewes must have had some overtime that day. 

[dseagull]

I've got a load of boards too, not from Lewes but from Waterloo (I think) . They came from Collectors Corner, bought them on a day trip to the smoke with my auntie when I was around 8. Had to be physically prevented from buying a carriage door, I'm told  

[Colin parks]

Hi South Central,

 

I have just been looking through the discussion here re. freight workings through Lewes.  There is a picture that I have seen somewhere on the internet that appears to show a rake of TTAs at Newhaven Harbour up sidings in the distance.  (The picture was probably taken from Newhaven Fort, some 800yds away).  I have not tracked down the picture yet, so cannot be sure of the date, but it appears that at times, tank wagons would be used to bunker boats berthed along the East Quay, using temporary pipelines.

 

Re. memorabilia, and a bit before your era but:  I once had a home signal arm from the Falmer side of Lewes and a shunter's pole from the old goods yard!

 

Colin 

[Grizz]

I stumbled across this else where on the web.....

 

 

It is one of Timothy Saunders photos from the period we were discussing. It's shows Blue n Grey and Jaffa CEPs with a Jaffa MLV albeit it at Paddock Wood, but it is 1987 and this is around the time I seem to remember the Newhaven boats occasionally running like this.

[Gwiwer]

There were several generations of 4Cap units.  The SR code was derived from Coastway Half-Lavatory Pneumatic, in turn derived from the original Hap (Half-lavatory Pneumatic) which was in turn derived from the 1930s 2Hal units which had one of two coaches (so half the unit) equipped with a lavatory and were 2Hal for Half-Lavatory

 

The SR-design 56xx 2Hal units, those built on old 2Nol underframes,  which had been drafted to the Sussex coast to replace 4Cor units ran as 2-car units paired for a while, sometimes singly or in threes according to roster and need, but were then coupled "permanently" into pairs designated 4Cap.  The coupling involved nothing more than joining two units together but the intermediate driving cabs were locked out of use and they became effectively indivisible.

 

BR design 2Hap units of the 60xx and 61xx series replaced them again initially as 2-car units running paired (and not this time generally singly or three up) before again being mated, reclassified 4Cap and renumbered.  In this case there were two sub-batches according to origin as some were formed of early units which became the 32xx series while the later batch which had minor technical differences were numbered in the 33x series.  These units lost the control equipment from the intermediate cabs which also had their ends painted blue ex-yellow and so were permanently paired though not physically so being coupled only by the buckeye with jumpers connected normally.

 

Almost all 4Cap workings were confined to the Sussex coast between Portsmouth, Brighton and Hastings (plus branches) though they had both a very few booked and unscheduled workings on the main lines via Arundel or Haywards Heath including to and from London.  Being non-gangwayed stock with no lavatories in half the coaches their use on London trains was unpopular and was kept to an absolute minimum.  

[Colin parks]

Hi.

 

I have found the the photo of the oil tank wagons at Newhaven.  No idea of the date though.  It might be earlier than the 80s.

 

 

 

 

Colin  

 

(Edit: In zoom mode, it should be possible to identify the road vehicle types, and thus date the photo.  There seem to be a fair few Transit type vans and pick-ups on both sides of the harbour. The pick-up near the lifeboat house in the left foreground has that 1980s 'look' to the radiator grille/headlights. Plenty of pick-ups here)

[Colin parks]

There were several generations of 4Cap units.  The SR code was derived from Coastway Half-Lavatory Pneumatic, in turn derived from the original Hap (Half-lavatory Pneumatic) which was in turn derived from the 1930s 2Hal units which had one of two coaches (so half the unit) equipped with a lavatory and were 2Hal for Half-Lavatory

 

The SR-design 56xx 2Hal units, those built on old 2Nol underframes,  which had been drafted to the Sussex coast to replace 4Cor units ran as 2-car units paired for a while, sometimes singly or in threes according to roster and need, but were then coupled "permanently" into pairs designated 4Cap.  The coupling involved nothing more than joining two units together but the intermediate driving cabs were locked out of use and they became effectively indivisible.

 

BR design 2Hap units of the 60xx and 61xx series replaced them again initially as 2-car units running paired (and not this time generally singly or three up) before again being mated, reclassified 4Cap and renumbered.  In this case there were two sub-batches according to origin as some were formed of early units which became the 32xx series while the later batch which had minor technical differences were numbered in the 33x series.  These units lost the control equipment from the intermediate cabs which also had their ends painted blue ex-yellow and so were permanently paired though not physically so being coupled only by the buckeye with jumpers connected normally.

 

Almost all 4Cap workings were confined to the Sussex coast between Portsmouth, Brighton and Hastings (plus branches) though they had both a very few booked and unscheduled workings on the main lines via Arundel or Haywards Heath including to and from London.  Being non-gangwayed stock with no lavatories in half the coaches their use on London trains was unpopular and was kept to an absolute minimum.  

Interesting information on the 4 CAP units Gwiwer.

 

A little off-topic, but it rather lays an old ghost to rest for me because I mentioned that Bulleid 2 HAPs ran as 4 CAP units in the prototype notes for an article on constructing my Bulleid 2 HAPs.  The article was written for the Railway Modeller back in 2012, and a rather gruff letter was published therein a few issues later which asserted the fact that only the BR  2 HAPs were formed into 4 CAPs. I never responded because I could not remember where my information came from.

 

I knew my information was right!

 

Colin

[Grizz]

Colin it sad to hear that some people feel the need to reply in such a manner. Particularly when you have gone to the trouble of writing an article to help interest, inspire and encourage others. It is strange that some people feel the need to react in this way. How much better it would be to offer some evidence if it were available but in a constructive and polite way. I have always found your projects so inspirational and I only wish I had a fraction of your talents and skills.

 

Your photos of the old Newhaven eastern sidings and the modelling of the BR spoil trains and the scratch built 360 machine mounted on a low Mac were amazing, I do remember them stabled at Three Bridges Up Yard. I have shown this and others you have done to my son to show him what to aim for.

 

I have been modelling for years but it has only been in the last year or so that I was encouraged (gently nagged) by a friend to post some of my photos and projects on RMWEB because there wasn't a hostile crowd.

 

Back to the subject a bit....

 

Was I correct in thinking that the inner cabs ends on the 4 CAPs were painted out all in black? Or was that some other units? And would they have run through Lewes?

 

Oh and I found this on the web in a discussion forum regarding the photos of those two class 45s at Lewes I posted. It was from someone called Philipe. Sadly no one replied. Anyone else remember these 45s. I remember a week or so in either 86,87,88. They worked through to Brighton but not Lewes.

 

[number6]

I'm pretty sure the inner cabs on the 4CAPS were blue...

[Gwiwer]

The inner cabs of the Hap units were painted blue once they became permanently paired as Cap units though they soon appeared black because they no longer received the benefit of cleaning. IIRC the 4Cap units were all formed with brakes outermost in order to always have the guard's position at the rear of the train. As 2Hap units they could be paired any way round, as could the Bil and Hal units before them. There was no actual requirement for the guard to be at the back; some trains were formed of Cig or Vep stock (which later became the norm) with a central brake. I understand staff preferred having the brake at the end as it made management of short platform stops easier.

[number6]

Bingo on Sussex Peaks!: From Derby Sulzers - An answer to why that Peak was in Lewes Coal Yard plus lots more on why they were common 1966-69. I'm sure I had read this somewhere just couldn't remember where...

 

http://www.derbysulzers.com/peakseverywhere.html

'On July 13th 1969 5214 was sent from Cricklewood to Lewes to recover 41 which had failed on the previous day’s 19.19 northbound service. In fact the Peak had only reached Southease before expiring, E6031 pushed the train into Lewes, sidelining the Peak, then taking the train to Clapham Jcn where 18 had arrived to take over.'

 

Loads of excellent gen here on other Sussex workings.

 

[Roy Langridge]

The inner cabs of the Hap units were painted blue once they became permanently paired as Cap units though they soon appeared black because they no longer received the benefit of cleaning. IIRC the 4Cap units were all formed with brakes outermost in order to always have the guard's position at the rear of the train. As 2Hap units they could be paired any way round, as could the Bil and Hal units before them. There was no actual requirement for the guard to be at the back; some trains were formed of Cig or Vep stock (which later became the norm) with a central brake. I understand staff preferred having the brake at the end as it made management of short platform stops easier.

The first two batches had the motor coaches in the centre (3201-3211 and 3301-3311) the batch formed very late on had them at the outer end (3321-3325). The latter batch also retained yellow ends in the middle but no unit number.

 

And now I start the disagreement on what they were formed of. Sorry. As far as I am aware the 4CAPs never comprised Bulleid units. They were made up of BR Phase 1 units for 3201-3211 and BR Phase 2 units for 3301-3311. They were formed from units in the 6001+ range which were all BR build. The Bulleid units were in the 5601+ range and were all withdrawn by 1982 when the 4CAPs were formed.

 

I think the confusion stems from the "early" and "late" electrical gear distinguishing the 4CAP set numbers.

 

Edit: just go clarify, I think this is what you agree with but that Colin has still understood this to mean Bulleid HAPs did run as CAPs.

 

Roy

[Grizz]

Bingo on Sussex Peaks!: From Derby Sulzers - An answer to why that Peak was in Lewes Coal Yard plus lots more on why they were common 1966-69. I'm sure I had read this somewhere just couldn't remember where...

 

http://www.derbysulzers.com/peakseverywhere.html

'On July 13th 1969 5214 was sent from Cricklewood to Lewes to recover 41 which had failed on the previous day’s 19.19 northbound service. In fact the Peak had only reached Southease before expiring, E6031 pushed the train into Lewes, sidelining the Peak, then taking the train to Clapham Jcn where 18 had arrived to take over.'

 

Loads of excellent gen here on other Sussex workings.

Nice one Number 6!!! Finally I can lay a ghost to rest. The information regarding photo of the blue 45 at Lewes that I never got round to asking Colin Packham about. So it was '41'....which became 45147......which sadly was so dramatically destroyed in the Eccles crash.

The class 25 was in BR Green with small yellow panels.

 

Cheers for your help in sorting this out!

[Gwiwer]

Bulleid Hap units were paired semi-permanently but not renumbered and were referred to as 4Cap in some documents and by staff along the coast.  But each "half" retained its own 56xx number and yellow ends.  As I mentioned above the intermediate cabs were "permanently" locked out of use possibly with some equipment robbed as a supply of spares.

[South Central]

The inner cabs of the Hap units were painted blue once they became permanently paired as Cap units though they soon appeared black because they no longer received the benefit of cleaning. IIRC the 4Cap units were all formed with brakes outermost in order to always have the guard's position at the rear of the train. As 2Hap units they could be paired any way round, as could the Bil and Hal units before them. There was no actual requirement for the guard to be at the back; some trains were formed of Cig or Vep stock (which later became the norm) with a central brake. I understand staff preferred having the brake at the end as it made management of short platform stops easier.

 

 

The first two batches had the motor coaches in the centre (3201-3211 and 3301-3311) the batch formed very late on had them at the outer end (3321-3325). The latter batch also retained yellow ends in the middle but no unit number.

 

Further to Roy's observations, I understand the thinking behind marshalling the pairs with guard's vans innermost was to assist platform staff with positioning mail and parcels for loading in the right location on the platform before arrival. In the 4CAPs, one of the two guard's vans was stripped of duplicate equipment and became a dedicated parcels/luggage area (labelled 'Luggage' on the door). As such, if all the mail sacks were piled up on the platform where the middle of the unit would be coming to a stand, there would not be far to carry them for loading regardless of which way around the unit turned up. 

 

The colours of the intermediate cab ends simply matched that of all inner ends, so blue for blue/blue and grey livered units (same applies for the ex-Tadpole DTS in the middle of the 3T DEMUs I believe), then painted black when the units gained NSE stripes at Gillingham with the exception of the last four units as Roy rightly observes. 

[Roy Langridge]

OT I know, but...

 

This discussion of CAPs serves to show just why I love RMWeb. the gathering of knowledge from different people in a thread is so useful, especially as we get older and the existence of the subject matter gets longer ago.

 

I was one of those "sad individuals" that always had a love of multiple units and probably bashed those more than locos. I find it hard to believe just how long ago it all ended now.

 

More on topic: the Facebook group "Rail Thing - Southern Region" is a very useful source of information / photos of units operating on the Southern. I assume many people know of it, but that some don't.

 

Roy

[Mike Storey]

The info on 4 CAP's is very interesting and rings some bells as to what I remember. But I will steer well clear of permanently coupling my 2 HAP's, when they eventually arrive, for my Sheppey layout - sounds like a minefield!!

[Grizz]

Des anyone have any colour photos the CAPs? Espiy the inner ends........