Hornby Announce Peckett W4 0-4-0ST

[Moxy]

Well I know I'm not very bright and I'm the first to admit it but it seems every one is scrambling to pre order these locos and the price is creeping up it might seem an over simplified answer but why don't they just build more?

 

Hornby don't control the production line, in common with most manufacturers nowadays they book a production slot with a third party contractor to make 'X' number within a certain time, if they want more of the same model they would have to book another production slot in the factory - which might be 6 or 12 months down the line.

 

Given the apparent popularity of this model I am sure there will be future runs of it, but when you are using outside contractors it is not easy to change quantities at short notice.

[adb968008]

These are only the 1st 3 to be produced, you can bet the 2017 range has a few new livered  examples.

What could happen is the craze to own the first 3 causes a sell out, the 2nd bunch of new livered examples could flush out some of those "must haves" onto ebay.

[Londontram]

Hornby don't control the production line, in common with most manufacturers nowadays they book a production slot with a third party contractor to make 'X' number within a certain time, if they want more of the same model they would have to book another production slot in the factory - which might be 6 or 12 months down the line.

Well that's progress and modern technology for you, I remember the old days where we must have been so primitive but if I wanted a Hornby loco I just went into a shop and brought one

[jjb1970]

Even in the old days manufacturers used batch production so that if a model sold unexpectedly well it wasn't as simple as just cranking a handle to make another couple of hundred appear. That said, I also much prefer being able to buy models after having had a chance to see them and make up my own mind about them. I'm enough of a realist to see the attractions of the pre-order model for manufacturers but personally I don't like it.

[Ian J.]

I think Hornby would be fools not to do a couple or three liveries per year for the first two to three years. It's not like they're rolling in money at the moment after all, and there are plenty of liveries to choose from. From all evidence I've seen these are going to be popular little locos. I only need one (if Hornby ever do 'George Jennings') but I wouldn't be averse to having a couple more for general industrial duties on whatever layout I end up having one day (hopefully*).

 

As for pre-order production, I think that as long as an additional amount are manufactured beyond the actual pre-orders then two areas are covered: additional interest from wary purchasers; and 'spares' for those pre-ordered. Do we know how many APT-Es were made beyond the pre-orders? I imagine that that's considered confidential commercial information, but I doubt Rapido only made the exact number for the pre-orders and I would hazard a guess that they extended that by 5% to cover spares and some additional sales.

 

*We need a fingers crossed smiley

Edited October 22, 2016 by Ian J.

[bertiedog]

It might be tempting to suggest a British factory, with British workers, designers, pattern makers, and engineers might be a better way to get models made rather than ordering them from a country run by a part time communist dictatorship intent only on earning foreign currency by subsidy.

Trouble is the cheapness of the labour went ChinG ChinG! in the ears of the accountants in the west, cheap costs, instant profits at western retail prices, super cash flow, and closed factories to sell off in the UK for huge profits, (but only one off cash in's).

Trouble is the Chinese are very hard working and are successful, so much so they now outrank even the US economy, wages are up, and to put it mildly, they could afford to buy out completely most western businesses who rely on them for supplies.

[Ian J.]

It might be tempting to suggest a British factory, with British workers, designers, pattern makers, and engineers might be a better way to get models made rather than ordering them from a country run by a part time communist dictatorship intent only on earning foreign currency by subsidy.

Trouble is the cheapness of the labour went ChinG ChinG! in the ears of the accountants in the west, cheap costs, instant profits at western retail prices, super cash flow, and closed factories to sell off in the UK for huge profits, (but only one off cash in's).

Trouble is the Chinese are very hard working and are successful, so much so they now outrank even the US economy, wages are up, and to put it mildly, they could afford to buy out completely most western businesses who rely on them for supplies.

 

 

At the risk of sounding a bit political, after all this Brexit malarkey and the significant drop in the value of Pound Sterling hiking up prices, it might eventually begin to make some financial sense to have manufacturing (not just in our sector, but of all kinds) running here again. Unfortunately, it will be a brave investor who takes the initial risk as all the secondary manufacturers aren't here so there would still be significant importing for some time to come.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Ian J.

[RJS1977]

Even in the old days manufacturers used batch production so that if a model sold unexpectedly well it wasn't as simple as just cranking a handle to make another couple of hundred appear. That said, I also much prefer being able to buy models after having had a chance to see them and make up my own mind about them. I'm enough of a realist to see the attractions of the pre-order model for manufacturers but personally I don't like it.

 

They may have used batch production, but when they controlled the production line it was easy enough to reduce the numbers made in a batch that wasn't selling so well and use the time to make a larger batch of something else. Nowadays they have to compete for production line space with other companies.

 

They also wouldn't have to wait several weeks for the next batch to arrive in the UK...

[stewartingram]

When I visited the Hornby factory, many years ago, I had some big surprises about production on the shop floor. Basically each year a catalogue was produced, and we expected to be able to go into a shop (there werte many available in those days) and would be able to purchase anything in that catalogue. (Assuming of course it wasn't a new item - 2 locos a year was luxury, and just a generic build for the type - & that the new item was actually released). The day I was there, they had just changed the moulding machine to produce some class 47 bodies. The guy explained that they ran the machine a relatively small time, though actually the quantity made was quite large, these were then stockpiled in the warehouse. The latter supplied the retail network on demand; if stocks dropped to a low level, production was only restarted when enough trade enquires came in.

At the time I was working in a facory producing comms radios, we kept minimal stock items, just enough to fulfil orders. Most of our production was to specific order with detail differences (much like todays locos I guess). The warehouse at Margate was very full, must have cost a fortune to stockpile.

 items in those days.

 

Stewart

[bertiedog]

Stock in the stores was always a problem to accountants, don't forget they are the very people in any company who never meets customers, and customers service does not get taught to accountants! Production on order with parts only bought in just in time is the order of the day, and even these days, there are lots of smaller suppliers who service industry, the huge defence industry keeps them in business.

 

But in the case Hornby (modern), most items were made in house, and in the case of old Hornby all was made in the Liverpool factory.

 

The struggle to get production back to the UK is very complex, new factories will not be like older ones, mainly machine centres and robotic assembly, but this approach is extremely costly, and a lot of UK makers in all fields decided to go to China, make money and had no intention of investment in new processes. The money is heavily taxed. and they prefer to pay the dividend to the investors, who after all are, you , the people who depend on pensions, assurance and financial services.

 

Taxes would have to be lowered, rates reduced to levels comparable to abroad, and large investments made, and the the spectre of wages comes up, and it is a biggy, people get paid more here, even in comparison to Europe, let alone the Chinese.

 

So the staff in any returning factory are going to have to be worth every penny, and basically machine minders on 24 hr production lines of automated production. The days of cheap labour here are long over in the UK, you cannot afford a line of workers on a production line any more, the whole production process has to be altered.

 

Phillips do this in Poland making light bulbs, the entire process including packing is 24 hr automated, and results in costs about the same as Chinese manual labour costs. But they had to do it in Poland because the rates and local costs were a little lower, plus EU setup subsidies.

 

It would be a huge leap for a company the size of Hornby to afford such arrangements, millions upon millions in machinery, and they still face justifiable union restrictions and peoples expectations on wages, these cannot go down if tax and expenses remain at current levels. If they remain high, then the worker must be several times more productive by using automation to be able to earn his keep.

 

Perhaps the future is smaller more specialist UK model companies, limited products involving parts from the UK and China, more assembly than manufacture, most work on machining centres, with some staff on final assembly and distribution.

 

None of this is political, just comment on the trade, still looking forward to Dodo arriving in time for Christmas !!!!

 

Stephen

[farren]

So would a English outside source be the answer? Supplying Hornby along with other companies. I would say Bachmann but I don't think Bachmanns parent company would be too pleased.

[70E]

I haven't got any other Hornby pre-orders with Rails of Sheffield so don't know but have they the applied the increase to other Hornby products or just the pecketts? I had two on order with them, cancelled one and ordered elsewhere in the hope it won't increase by £10.00 so may still save some money.

[NXEA!]

Despite being well out of my sphere of interest (Southern Region EMU's mainly), I've pre-ordered Dodo. It looks to be a cracking model, an absolute masterstroke pulled by Hornby and it deserves to succeed IMO. This is probably the model that I've been the most excited for, ever. Just got to build a layout for it now! 

[TRAILRAGE]

Have just pre-ordered  the H&P Peckett for sentimental reasons from Collett Models for £68.50. With insured post it comes to £75.45. With no payment being taken until despatch it gives me sometime to save for it. Website says due Dec 31st.

 

Cheers Trailrage

[adb968008]

The best bet for UK manufacturing would be a Japan / South Korea style Brass manufacturer, with the detailing and finish to match, produced in limited batches.
Indeed this exists already for other gauges than 00.

However the price of these models would be similar to the prices seen in Europe for such brass models (£600-£1500), but boy once you see the quality that can be turned out you'll be hooked.

Edited October 26, 2016 by adb968008

[9402 Fredrick]

Just pre-ordered Dodo at Britannia Models.

[davknigh]

The best bet for UK manufacturing would be a Japan / South Korea style Brass manufacturer, with the detailing and finish to match, produced in limited batches.

Indeed this exists already for other gauges than 00.

However the price of these models would be similar to the prices seen in Europe for such brass models (£600-£1500), but boy once you see the quality that can be turned out you'll be hooked.

It was done once some time ago (late '70s early '80s?) by Samhongsa, a Korean company. They did a few GWR prototypes in 00, a pannier and a prairie tank IIRC but nothing further came of it. The quality was quite good.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[Steamport Southport]

You've got people in this thread complaining about prices rising by a couple of quid, I doubt many of those are going to be buying £600 - £1500 models no matter what the quality is.  

 

 

But if you're willing to pay those sort of prices then there are already modellers that would build you almost anything. 

 

 

 

 

Jason

[rockershovel]

#662 above, is missing an important point about UK costs.

 

Sometime in the 1960s the then-Conservative administration hit on the happy idea of using housing price speculation, and the consequent price inflation as an economic driver.

 

Who pays these prices? Correct, the people you might otherwise employ. Who lends the money? Correct, the financial sector who might otherwise fund productive industry, but would much rather have a captive market.

[Ian Hargrave]

It was done once some time ago (late '70s early '80s?) by Samhongsa, a Korean company. They did a few GWR prototypes in 00, a pannier and a prairie tank IIRC but nothing further came of it. The quality was quite good.

Cheers,

David

More recently Ajin made the FIATrains LMS twins.Price new was £400. Sometimes on eBay where they tend to be a sound buy..£250 to £300 mark.Recommended for those prepared to go an extra mile for sheer quality of finish and performance.

[Porcy Mane]

It was done once some time ago (late '70s early '80s?) by Samhongsa, a Korean company. They did a few GWR prototypes in 00, a pannier and a prairie tank IIRC but nothing further came of it. The quality was quite good.

 

Some Brits tried taking on the Japanese at this game.

 

Micro Metalsmiths* took advantage of the extensive grants available following the closure of Consett steelworks to set up a small "extension" to their staple business in North West Durham. They produced a brass 4mm fully sprung J39 in both RTR and kit form. When things went T1ts up some folk got their fingers burnt. Slaters, amongst others bought up what was left of the ashes.

 

This is my mates  MM J39 recently converted to P4 with most of the errors to the original kit corrected.

 

 

*Micro Metalsmiths still carry on their original business at their long established premises at Kirkbymoorside. 

 

https://goo.gl/maps/7hCFLWXU2VJ2

[ukpepsi]

*Micro Metalsmiths still carry on their original business at their long established premises at Kirkbymoorside.

 

From the following report I found on the web, Micro Metalsmiths are not quite the same company that produced the J39.

 

Posted on 11 Jun 2014

 

The sale of Kirkbymoorside-based Micro-Metalsmiths — founded in 1964 and a manufacturer of products for the defence, aerospace and medical industries — has been completed by Hunter Kelly and Charles King of EY Restructuring’s Yorkshire office. 

The joint administrators sold the family-run business to the German firm Sylatech in a deal that saved all 81 jobs; they also sold Sylatech the entire share capital of MM Microwave, which was owned by Micro-Metalsmiths; this secured 30 jobs. 

 

Mr Kelly said: “Due to challenging trading conditions and a large pension-scheme deficit, Micro-Metalsmiths was running out of cash. The directors began to look for potential buyers, but the company was unable to meet its debts and went into administration. We were able to secure a ‘going concern’ sale to Sylatech, which has safeguarded the future of all 111 employees at Micro-Metalsmiths and MM Microwave.”

 

Shame the fledgling Model business turned sour for the company, it would have been great to see a project like this succeed.

 

Pepsi

Edited November 2, 2016 by ukpepsi

[Porcy Mane]

From the following report I found on the web, Micro Metalsmiths are not quite the same company that produced the J39.

 

Near enough for our purposes though. Same family. If only the MOD had bought more Slingsby T67's things, may have turned out differently.

[Martin_R]

I suspect the next Peckett run (2017-18?) will retail around the £100 mark or even higher....

[Durranhill]

Near enough for our purposes though. Same family. If only the MOD had bought more Slingsby T67's things, may have turned out differently.

Well off topic but  this article on the Slingsby T67 / T-3A may explain why it did not sell well - https://robrobinette.com/T-3A_Firefly.htm .

Stewart .