High Speed Diesel Train (HSDT) - The Story continues

[JSpencer]

Could the answer to the coaches being something along the lines of Oxford rail doing the bodies, and Rapdio doing the underframes and interior details for the HSDT? That way the body tooling is saved, and Rapido can use the 'bodies in white' to make the HSDT coaches, the underframes can then have the loom wiring, and all the interior details that are craved, and then can be painted the same colour by Rapido....

 

Andy G

 

Aside from the reasons stated elsewhere, I see an awful mess getting the design and assembly co-ordinated between 2 different manufacturers that will doubtless put costs through the roof. This might work just about for Airbus whereby each unit has a distinct role in the affair and CAD work is centralized at one point by a competent technical team (even here there are stories floating around) and in the case of Airbus, an aircraft project is the very heart of the business. But for a plastic coach, it won't be worth the hassle.

[UP 4000]

Wouldn't it be easier if Rapido commissioned Oxford for the complete coaches and they applied the paint colour, lighting odds & sods themselves?

[JSpencer]

Wouldn't it be easier if Rapido commissioned Oxford for the complete coaches and they applied the paint colour, lighting odds & sods themselves?

 No it would be harder. As soon as you split work between factories, you have to take into account the complex logistics of both.

 

Now if it was Rapido supplies the electrical fittings for Oxford to include, that would be possible. However Rapido would need to provide actual production examples (as well as full spec) so that Oxford can properly add it to their design. Then - as Rapido are providing parts - they must ensure all are Delivered to Oxfords site prior to Oxfords production.

[UP 4000]

logistical and costly nightmare for them to work together, Whatever happens we will get great MK3's for the HSDT regardless by who, and we are getting new MK3's anyway from Oxford, for all we know Jason and Bill are rolling round the floor in fits of laughter listening to Yellow Submarine with a complete prototype with 100hrs of testing on her already,    

[Removed a/c]

I don't care who makes what just as long as it isn't connected like the APT-E a 10 car set like that would be a nightmare IMO. 

[UP 4000]

Oh I don't no, find it fairly easy, can even connect the coaches on track with no issues,

 

Apart from the coaches matching what about drive? If both cars are powered would there be an issue with them trying to pull/push each other off the track, A 10 car set weighs in about the 3 metre mark, so at about 2.7 metre gap apart they going to have to be finely balanced, if one slows for any reason the coaching stock could be ripped off the track.

 

Is this the reason Hornby haven't done it with the Class 43? APT-E has if you want an umbilical cord I think Rapido's Turbo is the same, I know Kit has one if he or somebody could shed some light on that, but then when you look at there LRC from what I can tell coupled normal and runs fine, and guessing both are powered.

[Mr_Tilt]

Oh I don't no, find it fairly easy, can even connect the coaches on track with no issues,

 

Apart from the coaches matching what about drive? If both cars are powered would there be an issue with them trying to pull/push each other off the track, A 10 car set weighs in about the 3 metre mark, so at about 2.7 metre gap apart they going to have to be finely balanced, if one slows for any reason the coaching stock could be ripped off the track.

 

Is this the reason Hornby haven't done it with the Class 43? APT-E has if you want an umbilical cord I think Rapido's Turbo is the same, I know Kit has one if he or somebody could shed some light on that, but then when you look at there LRC from what I can tell coupled normal and runs fine, and guessing both are powered.

 

I can't recall there being plugs and sockets between the Turbo's 'locos' and the single trailer, and I must admit I haven't checked in any detail, but I'll have a look. 

Edited August 10, 2016 by Mr_Tilt

[UP 4000]

Thanks Kit,

 

I'm not sure myself that's why I asked, only guessing,

[JSpencer]

Oh I don't no, find it fairly easy, can even connect the coaches on track with no issues,

 

Apart from the coaches matching what about drive? If both cars are powered would there be an issue with them trying to pull/push each other off the track, A 10 car set weighs in about the 3 metre mark, so at about 2.7 metre gap apart they going to have to be finely balanced, if one slows for any reason the coaching stock could be ripped off the track.

 

Is this the reason Hornby haven't done it with the Class 43? APT-E has if you want an umbilical cord I think Rapido's Turbo is the same, I know Kit has one if he or somebody could shed some light on that, but then when you look at there LRC from what I can tell coupled normal and runs fine, and guessing both are powered.

 

The LRC normally used one locomotive and 5 coaches, so there is no need to feed sound between two units nor use 2 chips. The Rapido LRC coaches have lights and tail lights. The tail lights can be switched on or off by using a magnet over the roof to move a magnet switch inside it. (I suppose Bachmann could do the same on their locos instead of some complex wiring and physical switches underneath them).

Couplings between all LRC units are normal buckeyes. There are no close coupling units neither on the coaches nor the loco and Rapido provide short (fitted) and long couplings (provided).

 

I doubt they could design the two HSDT power cars to use one chip driving both ends here. Unless the coaches are really integrated into it and they are made and exclusively for this train. While the coaches tend to be just that (when painted in original colours, though Ive seen a photo of a class 20 moving them about), there are photos of the power cars working with other units which people (especially preserved era) will want to replicate. This points to bulk standard NEM couplings as a solution separate sound chips in each unit IMHO (a dead cert if Rapido end up doing just the power cars).

(there are some wireless chip options, but that still results in 2 chips).

 

But they could still be very creative and surprise us....

Edited August 10, 2016 by JSpencer

[UP 4000]

Thanks that's pretty much summed up everything, yes the single decoder would only work if the coaches were done the same as E-Train, Multiplug setup running from power car to power car totally intergrated, I thought production wise to do this over the cost of a 2nd decoder, But as quite rightly pointed out not everybody will want the coaches, may not want 2 power cars.

 

As with the LRC I thought it ran as 2 units,

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFkKsgwEHjQ

 

or is generally not the case, If they are both powered units then clearly having no issues fighting against each other and not pulling the coaches off the track which was a bit of a concern.

[John ks]

Oh I don't no, find it fairly easy, can even connect the coaches on track with no issues,

 

Apart from the coaches matching what about drive? If both cars are powered would there be an issue with them trying to pull/push each other off the track, A 10 car set weighs in about the 3 metre mark, so at about 2.7 metre gap apart they going to have to be finely balanced, if one slows for any reason the coaching stock could be ripped off the track.

 

Is this the reason Hornby haven't done it with the Class 43? APT-E has if you want an umbilical cord I think Rapido's Turbo is the same, I know Kit has one if he or somebody could shed some light on that, but then when you look at there LRC from what I can tell coupled normal and runs fine, and guessing both are powered.

From what can see the rapido turbo train has a 2 wire connection between coaches and I am fairly sure that these 2 wires run the full length of the train

There are 2 motors & 2 decoders in the train i.e. 1 motor & 1 decoder at each end

I believe the intermediate coaches are lit from the track power and are on all the time

I powered up the track & lifted one of the power cars of the track , all the coach & power car interior lights remained on

If the front bogie looses power (through a bad point or other dead or dirty section) then power is still available from the other pick ups in the train

Last time I ran this train I don't recall having problems with them trying to pull/push each other off the track.

 

Hope this helps

 

John

[UP 4000]

Thanks john, But with the extra pickups it's able to keep moving, I was concerned with 2 powered units at either end if one lost power or in fact not in sync with each other could it cause issues?

 

While testing service use one of the connectors wasn't home properly and lost power in PC-2 causing PC-1 to pull herself and the first coach off the track (big long apt-e) shorting out the track. This was only a one off and had successful running ever since but I don't want this happening on a regular basis with the HSDT.

 

I know Rapido will thoroughly test this so shouldn't be a problem, In most cases coaches are generally pulled even double headed, not 1 pulling and 1 pushing which is my concern and the reason asking about the coaches anyway. 

 

Probably reading to much into this and shouldn't really be concerned, I suppose that's what happens when there's no real definite answers,,Just have to wait and see,,,,

Edited August 10, 2016 by UP 4000

[JSpencer]

Thanks that's pretty much summed up everything, yes the single decoder would only work if the coaches were done the same as E-Train, Multiplug setup running from power car to power car totally intergrated, I thought production wise to do this over the cost of a 2nd decoder, But as quite rightly pointed out not everybody will want the coaches, may not want 2 power cars.

 

As with the LRC I thought it ran as 2 units,

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFkKsgwEHjQ

 

or is generally not the case, If they are both powered units then clearly having no issues fighting against each other and not pulling the coaches off the track which was a bit of a concern.

The LRC was intended to be -say - a 10 coach train with a power car at each end, and a lot of running was done like that. However, and I am not sure when that happened, lack of demand led to smaller trains pulled by just one locomotive.

[jonklein611]

The LRC was intended to be -say - a 10 coach train with a power car at each end, and a lot of running was done like that. However, and I am not sure when that happened, lack of demand led to smaller trains pulled by just one locomotive.

 

Learn all about it here:

 

http://rapidotrains.com/bombardier-lrc-history-and-modelling-tips/

[UP 4000]

The LRC was intended to be -say - a 10 coach train with a power car at each end, and a lot of running was done like that. However, and I am not sure when that happened, lack of demand led to smaller trains pulled by just one locomotive.

 

In a way very much like our HST, only difference the HST was a success and after 40 years we still won't let it go, had to give the Valenta up though,,,

[UP 4000]

Learn all about it here:

 

http://rapidotrains.com/bombardier-lrc-history-and-modelling-tips/

 

Interesting reading, Especially linking them upto an f9b,

[Removed a/c]

Rapido have a unique aftermarket lighting kit that they sell maybe they will use that for the coaches? As the HSDT doesn't connect like the APT-E I think trying to wire it through would be too complex unless they did it like the Bachmann Blue Pullman maybe. I would personally like it to be done like the Hornby HSTs , simple to use and assemble and chip, no faffing about. To be honest I was a bit under whelmed by the APT-E. It has nice styling but the bright lights on all the time and having to fanny about with mine trying different decoders, loose wiring etc.......has left a smidge of the body that doesn't clip properly to the chassis anymore. Once I got it running I ran it a few times and now it just sits in a siding................much like the real thing I guess. 

Edited August 10, 2016 by thebritfarmer

[UP 4000]

Rapido have a unique aftermarket lighting kit that they sell maybe they will use that for the coaches? As the HSDT doesn't connect like the APT-E I think trying to wire it through would be too complex unless they did it like the Bachmann Blu Pullman maybe. I would personally like it to be done like the Hornby HSTs , simple to use and assemble and chip, no faffing about. To be honest I was a bit under whelmed by the APT-E. It has nice styling but the bright lights on all the time and having to fanny about with mine trying different decoders, loose wiring etc.......has left a smidge of the body that doesn't clip properly to the chassis anymore. Once I got it running I ran it a few times and now it just sits in a siding................much like the real thing I guess. 

 

Why so disheartened Scott? E-Train is a fantastic beast, I know you have had issues with her, but don't give up, yes the coach lighting is WAY to bright, I know, I went a bit daft fitting decoders to every coach,(10 at the moment) and looks better, And have found out that the Lokpilot V4 is the best for non sound versions, Can be mapped easier than the standard.I ran my Hornby HST Eastern for the first time, great unit and running with Loksound, But those tension lock couplings, I could swing for them, The most hideous design ever and Hornby are still using them, I would go for the APT-E's coupling mechanism any day over tension locks, gets easier in time and experience and would welcome that on the HSDT, Though couldn't see it happening,

[Removed a/c]

I dunno,  I hadn't pre-ordered one but as everyone was raving about them I tried n the off chance that one would be available and it was so was duly ordered, only to arrive and give me grief. Was a bit of an anti climax that's all. I still think it looks cool on the layout though .  I agree about the tension locks on the HSTs, when they redesigned the power cars that should have been taken into consideration TBH. As they run in a coupled unit all the time not so much of an issue and I was think of getting/making some corridor connectors to hid the gaps. 

[UP 4000]

I did run my HST for the first time yesterday, ran great, but those tension locks, and the gaps!!!, never mind a bus, E-Train flew through it, Would still welcome a similar connection method being a complete rake, but wouldn't be feasible due to different running styles. As long as there close coupled and NEM couplings I can work on the rest. Sorry she caused you grief Scott, More of the case you were the first to report on these problems, many others haven't, I'm afraid one of those things, a giant leaning curve, Sorted in the end though, Could be worse, 4 sound decoders in a 08, Like a lemming jumping off a cliff,,,,,

[Holmesfeldian]

What a stunning array of boffinery...

The British Rail testing engineers pose for a group photo at York towards the end of the high speed testing of the prototype Class 252 HST in the summer of 1973.( Photo : ©traintesting )

 

 

http://www.traintesting.com/HST_prototype.htm

Edited August 12, 2016 by Holmesfeldian

[Removed a/c]

Looks like a few packs of these will be needed 

http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/image_box.php?image=images1/scraft/36-040.jpg&cat_no=36-040&info=0&width=650&height=243

 

and the foreman from this suitably repainted

http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/image_box.php?image=images1/scraft/36-403.jpg&cat_no=36-403&info=0&width=1000&height=391

 

 

Edited August 12, 2016 by thebritfarmer

[Mr_Tilt]

There's some familiar faces in that pic, but I couldn't put a name to any of them sadly.

 

Of course they were 'the enemy' to us in APD in those days. 

[modelpara]

Visited the Rapido stand this morning, they will not be doing the coaches is what I was told which is a pity.

[Mr_Tilt]

Visited the Rapido stand this morning, they will not be doing the coaches is what I was told which is a pity.

 

But Oxford are doing theirs, and if they're as good as their other stuff they'll be up there in quality with the Rapido Power cars.

 

(goodness knows haw many variants of they're/their/theirs/they'll I've got on that sentence!  )