Building kits for Tyneside in the BR era. J24 and PDK D49/2

[Daddyman]

3 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

This looks like a classic case of a buyer with more money than sense, who has just  got carried away. I've seen various D&S coach kits go for around £70, but nothing like this!

 

John.

Yes, but I suppose the person was unaware, like me, that Danny was still supplying (or supplying again) 4mm kits. I haven't seen a D.18 on ebay for ages and I suppose the buyer needed a signature carriage. And after all, Bachmann sell a carriage for around £160 I think... 

 

Still, I hope the buyer isn't as fussy as me, cos he'll be throwing a lot of the kit away for his £169... 

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=7210&start=25

 

[rowanj]

This is the latest state of play on the Dia, 320 There are a few more details to add, mainly on the roof. I'll be fitting cast ventilators, and destination boards from Evergreen strip. Buffers have just arrived in the post from Wizard, The coach has had a push around the layout and all seems OK from a running point of view.

On the basic kit from Isinglass, I replaced the dynamo, battery boxes and vacuum brake gear, using MJT parts from Dart Castings, This was from choice rather than necessity, as Isinglass do provide prints for them. As  I said, I'll use whitemetal ventilators, as I find them more robust than the 3D prints. Buffers need to be sourced, as does door furniture, The Fox Bogies work well and I'm happy to use them, though I know some folk prefer etched ones.

 

The seats were a bit of an experiment. isinglass will supply an interior kit, but I already had loads os seats in the spares box. Bill Bedford used to offer a download based on the Peco/Kitmaster card sheets. It seems to have vanished from his site, but I had a saved file, so just printed it out, and stuck the 2nd class covers to the seats, using strong impact adhesive. I've stuck a seated driver in the cab, as well as a reverser, just to fill the space really.

So what do I think of this? I know the advice is to get loads of different views of the prototype, etc but in this case,easier said than done, In particular, a view of the ends, especially the drivers end, would have been nice, Mine is pretty bare compared with the one decent view I have, and steps and lamp irons would not have come amiss

, But the basic premise of this unique coach has been captured, I believe.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by rowanj

[rowanj]

I've made a tentative start on the D&S Dia 162 driving trailer, and spent more time trawling through various books and threads/posts. Doing so, i found this photo of a coach previously identified as the same diagram at Bedlington- a bit of an oddity as Bedlington was not usually, as far as I knew, served by a push-pull service. Anyway, the photo is a good reference point.

Some Dia 162's were altered in 1938 when the LNER re-introduced a number of services. This photo shows a couple of significant differences from the kit, notably the front windows- portholes on the kit, - and a lack of a window in each side of the brake compartment. I've ordered a couple of ends from Dart Castings to provide the new drivers' end ,and will fill in the side window on the kit with brass scrap if necessary     BUT...

 

Before I go to that extreme, can anyone confirm that the coach in the picture is a D162, and that the original porthole windows were replaced in the 1938 upgrade?    Daddyman- I;m thinking of you.....

 

I was full of good intentions to go this weekend to the Newcastle MRS show and talk to and join NERA, but the show was cancelled due to the small matter of the school roof blowing off during Storm Babette,

Edited November 11, 2023 by rowanj

[Daddyman]

6 hours ago, rowanj said:

I've made a tentative start on the D&S Dia 162 driving trailer, and spent more time trawling through various books and threads/posts. Doing so, i found this photo of a coach previously identified as the same diagram at Bedlington- a bit of an oddity as Bedlington was not usually, as far as I knew, served by a push-pull service. Anyway, the photo is a good reference point.

Some Dia 162's were altered in 1938 when the LNER re-introduced a number of services. This photo shows a couple of significant differences from the kit, notably the front windows- portholes on the kit, - and a lack of a window in each side of the brake compartment. I've ordered a couple of ends from Dart Castings to provide the new drivers' end ,and will fill in the side window on the kit with brass scrap if necessary     BUT...

 

Before I go to that extreme, can anyone confirm that the coach in the picture is a D162, and that the original porthole windows were replaced in the 1938 upgrade?    Daddyman- I;m thinking of you.....

I'd say the carriage in your photo most closely resembles a D.211 conversion as it has no toplights, which the 162s had. Looking in more detail at the photos in your thread, I see nothing resembling a D.162 - unless the toplights were built out in later years?! However, 211s had 5 compartments, and I don't know if a 6th was added on conversion (it's weird that the conversions weren't given a new diagram number); D.213s had even fewer compartments - 4 - and Dawson makes no mention of any being push-pull, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen in LNER days. But really, we're in the dark as info in NERA publications is sparse - the carriage people have never been interested in the LNER period. I'm afraid we're just reduced to parsing photos for later mods.  

Wright in his book on the North Sunderland has a picture of a D.162 in 1936 still with portholes - not sure if that confirms or disconfirms anything, 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Daddyman

[65179]

Longworth has 5 of the 6 surviving D213s as p&p. However, the photo above and the one posted with the kit on Nov 3:

 

 

both show a coach with the correct BC compartment spacing for a D.162 with the biggest gap between compartment windows closest to the brake end. There's a top light in the brake portion next to the driver's door, although not where you'd expect it in an as built D.162.  The brake to composite proportions and the compartment layout makes me lean to this being a re-pannelled D162 rather than anything else.

 

Simon

[Daddyman]

10 hours ago, 65179 said:

Longworth has 5 of the 6 surviving D213s as p&p. However, the photo above and the one posted with the kit on Nov 3:

 

 

both show a coach with the correct BC compartment spacing for a D.162 with the biggest gap between compartment windows closest to the brake end. There's a top light in the brake portion next to the driver's door, although not where you'd expect it in an as built D.162.  The brake to composite proportions and the compartment layout makes me lean to this being a re-pannelled D162 rather than anything else.

 

Simon

Interesting, Simon. And do we know that such a thing (re-panelling) happened? It's a heck of a lot of work to go to for a superannuated carriage. It occurs to me I haven't seen many photos of toplights in later days, which might argue for re-panelling. However, the Transport Library image LSDC2890 shows a five-comp brake third in the late 1940s/early 1950s on the GE with toplights still intact, suggesting there wasn't a fundamental design flaw (leaking, for example) - or perhaps just that it didn't bother the GE enough to re-panel?    

 

I've been looking at some old Expresses but there's not much. An article by T. Smeaton in issue 69 says just that D.162s Nos. 229, 2106 and 21898 were re-fitted with the new PP gear in March 1938 for West Hartlepool-Ferryhill services.  

Edited November 12, 2023 by Daddyman

[65179]

2 hours ago, Daddyman said:

Interesting, Simon. And do we know that such a thing (re-panelling) happened? It's a heck of a lot of work to go to for a superannuated carriage. It occurs to me I haven't seen many photos of toplights in later days, which might argue for re-panelling. However, the Transport Library image LSDC2890 shows a five-comp brake third in the late 1940s/early 1950s on the GE with toplights still intact, suggesting there wasn't a fundamental design flaw (leaking, for example) - or perhaps just that it didn't bother the GE enough to re-panel?    

 

I've been looking at some old Expresses but there's not much. An article by T. Smeaton in issue 69 says just that D.162s Nos. 229, 2106 and 21898 were re-fitted with the new PP gear in March 1938 for West Hartlepool-Ferryhill services.  

 

No evidence whatsoever.  If it's not re-panelled/covering over the toplights then the alternative seems to be a wholesale rebuild. This of course assumes that there isn't a missing diagram/drawing error in the relevant Longworth section. 

 

In a sense it's all a bit academic. The coach in the photos, whatever it is, with those details is the one that rowanj would like to reproduce!

 

Simon

[Daddyman]

1 minute ago, 65179 said:

 

No evidence whatsoever.  If it's not re-panelled/covering over the toplights then the alternative seems to be a wholesale rebuild. This of course assumes that there isn't a missing diagram/drawing error in the relevant Longworth section. 

Or the carriage is a conversion from a different diagram? The changes to the bodyside to alter the windows would amount to a complete rebuild from a D.162. 

 

1 minute ago, 65179 said:

In a sense it's all a bit academic. The coach in the photos, whatever it is, with those details is the one that rowanj would like to reproduce!

Not quite academic if he's trying to produce it from a D.162... 

[rowanj]

The posts between Simon and David pretty well sum up my dilemma. There are sufficient detail differences, some of them pretty major, between the kit and the photo to make me hesitant about how to proceed. I can have a stab at the front end using the MJT part, and can fill in the errant window. The kit will then look more like the photo, but will I have an actual Diagram, or will I have constructed a fictional monster? 

On balance,I'm inclined to go with the mods, as I have no evidence, in any case, of a coach like that in the kit running around Tyneside in BR days. 

I'm grateful for the advice...pls keep it coming.

John

[65179]

2 hours ago, Daddyman said:

Or the carriage is a conversion from a different diagram? The changes to the bodyside to alter the windows would amount to a complete rebuild from a D.162. 

 

Not quite academic if he's trying to produce it from a D.162... 

 

Yes indeed, that's what I intended by 'wholesale rebuild'.  I've very much blundered into this topic, and don't pretend to have any detailed knowledge. I do however know that the GE section had all manner of coaches that changed radically externally (and some internally) over their lives, with significant changes made to GN stock too. 

 

John has outlined his dilemma.  I shall look forward with interest to see what he produces and how he achieves it.

 

Simon

[Daddyman]

I don't think you can make this carriage out of the D&S 162, John - the unfilled windows would be the wrong shape. I'd be inclined to keep the kit for its value. The carriage in question could possibly be easier to make from an eight-compartment 3rd? - if you can get one.

[Daddyman]

I've been looking into this a bit more and a couple of explanations present themselves. Unfortunately, neither really helps John with his D&S kit... 

 

The first is that even when a diagram was nominally a toplight design, that doesn't mean that every carriage built to that diagram had toplights; the builders could apparently go back to the old-style Bain bodysides at whim. This was the case with a number of diagrams: D.161, for example, included one carriage with the Bain body style, while all the others in that diagram had toplights. However, no D.162s are listed as being built with the Bain bodysides. But that doesn't necessarily mean that none were. 

 

The other possible explanation is in one of Benham's captions (p.93) in his book on the NYMR, where he says: "For the push-pull operations introduced in later LNER/early BR days a number of new conversions were made from conventional former NER Brake Third coaches." Leaving aside the fact that the caption relates to a toplight-sided D.162 with large end windows, it might explain how the D.213s came to be converted; but could it be that composites were also converted? Diagrams 210 and 124 would have the right compartment arrangement (1+5) and Bain bodysides. Does Longworth offer anything? 

 

Incidentally, Benham's book has a photo on p. 32 at Whitby of an A8 with a BR number coupled up to a driving trailer with porthole end windows - so some did survive unmodified. I can't see if the bodyside has toplights or not. 

 

As said, none of this much help to John, sorry! 

[rowanj]

All this looked so easy a few weeks ago.   Actually, I enjoy the research and discussion almost as much as the actual modellimg, I remember the same issues a few years ago when I was building my first ex-NER kits, and struggling to get information on their life in BR days, I am so grateful to those who have helped me on this journey through the maze of NER coaches.

 

Here are a couple of photos I found amongst my books - pls note the copyright , The first one clearly shows a driving trailer still with porthole windows in the mid-50's. The water tower hides what would be useful side detail, and there dont seem to be any toplights, but it MIGHT be a D1a 162, Either way,  As David suggested,I'll build the kit with the portholes, and think about whether to gill in the toplights. I will pst the odd photo of the build, but for those who want to see these kits done properly, have a look at

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=7210&start=25

 

The second photo, from 1951 , shows a real mixed bag of stock at Morpeth in 1951. I can reproduce this train after a fashion, but in any event thought the photo would be of interest.

[65179]

1 hour ago, Daddyman said:

I've been looking into this a bit more and a couple of explanations present themselves. Unfortunately, neither really helps John with his D&S kit... 

 

The first is that even when a diagram was nominally a toplight design, that doesn't mean that every carriage built to that diagram had toplights; the builders could apparently go back to the old-style Bain bodysides at whim. This was the case with a number of diagrams: D.161, for example, included one carriage with the Bain body style, while all the others in that diagram had toplights. However, no D.162s are listed as being built with the Bain bodysides. But that doesn't necessarily mean that none were. 

 

The other possible explanation is in one of Benham's captions (p.93) in his book on the NYMR, where he says: "For the push-pull operations introduced in later LNER/early BR days a number of new conversions were made from conventional former NER Brake Third coaches." Leaving aside the fact that the caption relates to a toplight-sided D.162 with large end windows, it might explain how the D.213s came to be converted; but could it be that composites were also converted? Diagrams 210 and 124 would have the right compartment arrangement (1+5) and Bain bodysides. Does Longworth offer anything? 

 

Incidentally, Benham's book has a photo on p. 32 at Whitby of an A8 with a BR number coupled up to a driving trailer with porthole end windows - so some did survive unmodified. I can't see if the bodyside has toplights or not. 

 

As said, none of this much help to John, sorry! 

 

Longworth has the wrong drawing for D210, but records only one vehicle which was withdrawn in 1953. No mention of push-pull conversion either. D124 would be a candidate if the duckets had been removed. However, again, there is no mention of pp conversion.

 

That porthole windowed brake is a puzzle! Of course the water column is in a perfect position to obscure whether the coach has a ducket or a first class compartment! No hooded ventilators over the doors though.

 

There seems to be so much variety that anyone would be hard-pressed to definitively say you were wrong whatever you build!

 

Simon

Edited November 13, 2023 by 65179

[Daddyman]

On 13/11/2023 at 09:39, rowanj said:

All this looked so easy a few weeks ago.   Actually, I enjoy the research and discussion almost as much as the actual modellimg, I remember the same issues a few years ago when I was building my first ex-NER kits, and struggling to get information on their life in BR days, I am so grateful to those who have helped me on this journey through the maze of NER coaches.

 

Here are a couple of photos I found amongst my books - pls note the copyright , The first one clearly shows a driving trailer still with porthole windows in the mid-50's. The water tower hides what would be useful side detail, and there dont seem to be any toplights, but it MIGHT be a D1a 162, Either way,  As David suggested,I'll build the kit with the portholes, and think about whether to gill in the toplights. I will pst the odd photo of the build, but for those who want to see these kits done properly, have a look at

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=7210&start=25

Thank you for the plug, John! 

 

I'm sorry I couldn't help with research earlier, but I tend to only research the carriages I have kits of. I am, after all, modelling the ex-NER under duress! Not having a D.162, I've never looked into them. 

 

I think this shot of 67340 gives you licence to proceed with the kit as it comes. (Please don't fill in the windows!) I'd say that is definitely-ish a D.162 with portholes and toplights. The giveaway, I think, is how prominent the vents over the doors are on the second vehicle, and how invisible on this one - as Simon has pointed out. You can see something similar on pp. 43 and 44 in David Dunn's Northumberland Branch Lines: 3. Looking at the photos in the book and yours above, I'm beginning to suspect the toplights were painted out/boarded up in later years - as were, seemingly, the windows in the clerestory in some cases. You could possibly ask David Dunn for a higher res image - do you know him? 

 

Back to the mystery carriage at Monkseaton [EDIT: earlier in this thread - not the one above], thanks for the Longworth info, Simon. To me, the carriage looks narrower than the second and third vehicles, which might argue for it having been converted from something 8' wide, which a D. 124 is.  

 

Simon, I think we can safely say if it has portholes in the ends (and elliptical roof) it's a D.162. Only the NER used that style of window; any later conversion by the LNER would have square windows (I wonder if this was to save the driver having to stand?). Therefore, since the NERA's diagram books show only D.162s (and of course D.116s, but they're clerestories) with portholes, we can say no other carriage had them.  

 

Has anybody trawled through Ernie Brack's flickr photos for an album of this area? I haven't looked for such an album, but for other parts of the north east there are often very good shots of carriages - the Brampton album, for example, albeit too early for John.    

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Daddyman

[Jon4470]

Interesting discussion about all these possible permutations to achieve the carriage in the photos. I might just be adding to the options with this post  (and was consequently hesitant to join in for a while)….however here goes!

 

When I was researching the ex NER brake carriages (standard brakes not the auto cars) it became apparent that the detailed arrangements of duckets and windows in the sides of the van portion changed from time to time…..within the same diagram. From memory, this meant some had windows, some had no windows, the duckets could be at one end or in the middle etc

 

So, it leads me to wonder if the driving trailers also had these changes to the van side windows?

 

Jon

[rowanj]

23 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

Interesting discussion about all these possible permutations to achieve the carriage in the photos. I might just be adding to the options with this post  (and was consequently hesitant to join in for a while)….however here goes!

 

When I was researching the ex NER brake carriages (standard brakes not the auto cars) it became apparent that the detailed arrangements of duckets and windows in the sides of the van portion changed from time to time…..within the same diagram. From memory, this meant some had windows, some had no windows, the duckets could be at one end or in the middle etc

 

So, it leads me to wonder if the driving trailers also had these changes to the van side windows?

 

Jon

I suspect you are correct in the assumption that these driving trailers got various mods as parts wore out or they went through the works for servicing. etc. I have never built an NER kit of any description which didnt involve a lot of research-all of which is enjoyable and led to contacts with some great people, which is very handy for a solo modeller.

 

After all that , I.m just going to build the kit "as is", as it looks close enough to the photo at Monkseaton, and is in the right ballpark as far is timescale is concerned., Now, should it be crimson or lner brown?

 

One could do a PHD thesis on the intracsies of NER coaches. Someone probably did.

 

John

Edited November 14, 2023 by rowanj

[Daddyman]

1 hour ago, rowanj said:

PHD thesis ... NER coaches. Someone probably did.

And got a "pass with major corrections needed". 

 

Brown certainly survived until the end of the carriages' lives, so would perhaps be safer than crimson. One or two photos show BR font for the numbers, which might suggest crimson. 

[46256]

John,  I’ve never seen a coach yet , that didn’t look better in crimson or maroon….although crimson cream was also rather nice…

[rowanj]

This is more or less what I'm aiming for with the push-pull service- an ex-NER Driving Trailer, LNER 8 compt, then the LNER Dia 320 4- comp brake driving trailer. It is a pretty good representation of the 3-coach sets on the Blyth-Monkseaton Shttles through the 1950's until 1958, when DMU's took over. First-class passengers have one compartment to squeeze into, in the NER DT, but I dont imagine demand was high.

 

The D&S kit has continued to frustrate due to lack of information on these coaches in LNER/BR days. No two seem to look alike, and I am increasingly convinced that they were modified in several fairly substantial ways during their long life. I reached a point where I just had to bite the bullet and get on. Having found the photo of a porthole coach at Monkseaton in 1956, I used this as the excuse to build the kit as supplied, Even then, it was clear from the photo that things were different- no steps on the front end for a start,, and no toplights, I took Daddyman's advice to leave the kit windows alone.

 

The photo shows the coach on test, The roof is just perched there, and there is still detail to be fitted. It's about 3 years since I soldered a kit, and my rustiness shows, but hopefully a clean-up and paint job will reduce, if not hide, my multitude of sins.

 

I'm unsure about the layout of the underframe, so if anyone has a drawing or photo to assist, that would be helpful.

Edited November 18, 2023 by rowanj

[MarkC]

On 13/11/2023 at 10:39, rowanj said:

All this looked so easy a few weeks ago.   Actually, I enjoy the research and discussion almost as much as the actual modelling,

Your work continues to inspire, John.

 

Your sentiment that I've quoted rings very true with me as well; my own collecting of locomotives & stock which ran on the Scarborough & Whitby line has turned up some fascinating oddities. Not sure that my wallet would agree, but that's another matter!

 

Mark

[Daddyman]

I think your carriage is electric-lit, John, judging by the lack of gas taps on the porthole end. That would mean a battery box close to the left-hand bogie when viewed with the driving end to the right. Dynamo diagonally opposite I think (i.e. close to l/h bogie when viewed with driving end at left). Hopefully the kit comes with some etched supports for the trussing? - these should go from side to side between the inner faces of the solebars; use these with an electric-lit vehicle, rather than the cast w/m queen posts (but omit the sort of triangular shaped riveted covers). The position of the truss supports should be marked by bolts etched on the underframe overlay.

 

Do you have vee hangers in the kit? If not, get some of these: 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/carriage/c11/ and use them with Lanarkshire 21" vac tanks. Normal position is, say, 6mm bogie-wards from the truss supports; this vee unit doesn't stretch across the whole underframe (see my S4 thread), but each vee unit is hard up against one solebar: when you turn the model upside down, one is against the NE solebar, and the other against the SW solebar. Alternatively, I have a picture of a toplight brake on the GE with one centrally mounted vee, presumably stretching across the whole width of the u/f and with two tanks coming off the single cross shaft. If you want to go that way, you could these these vees from Wizard: 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/carriage/c63/

 

Re the roof, some ellipticals had two vents diagonally opposite in each compartment, but the D.162 in Record 2 seems to have been built with them along the centre line, two vents per compartment, with each vent central above the comp windows. Since the trend seems to have been to go from diagonal to in-line on other ellipticals, I'd say go with the in-line option. I have no idea what happens on the brake roof.... Just go with the photo EDIT: drawing on the box? - though notice that it has lamp tops between each vent over the comps; I don't think there was any outward sign of lamps on electric-lit vehicles, so would suggest omitting those "pips". 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Daddyman

[rowanj]

Thanks again to Daddyman for the information, which I am busy following. Not having a decent view of either end of a Dia  162 in BR days, I have improvised, using what evidence I do have to hopefully produce something similar, The driving end certainly looks "busy" but whether it is accutate is another matter..

 

This is the 3rd D&S kit I have attempted, and it is a real pity they are not more widely available,They are certainly not "starter kits", but with a reasonable amount of care, a decent model can be produced, The instruction sheet is pretty basic, with a lot of generic guidance across the various kits in the range, I am left with a whole host of small detail pieces on the etch with no idea what they are or where they go, so on the etch they shall remain. I suppose better modellers thatn me will know what they are for, The kit is really crying out for better instructions and diagrams, I am a big fan of the LRM system, which includes a photocopy ot the various etches, numbered and cross-referenced into a list in the written instructions,

 

Anyway, the last thing I want to sound is churlish, I was delighted to get the kit, along with a nice note from Dan who does not know me from Adam, and I'm enjoying building the model.

 

i stole an idea from Daddyman to produve the various hoses and standpipes, as I didnt have any suitable castings, Unlike David's much neater versions, I simply soldered guitar string to 0.7cm brass, I could possibly have dropped a gauge, but the photos of the real stuff make them look pretty chunky compared, say, to an LNER or BR coach.

 

The York Truss rods on this coach are a bit different to the LNER turnbuckles, so that scotched my idea to fit MJT ones. The photos seem to show round "rods" rather than flatter bars, so I used 0.7 rod, Each end has a pair running from the queen posts, (which are provided as etches in the kit),to the chassis bottom. In doing so, I ran out of rod, so one side awaits "trussing". I'll wait until this is done, as it is a bit fiddly and involves a bit of heat, before fitting the vacuum "v" hangers and dynamo. I did fit the gubbins as David suggested on the "completed" side. The kit has a an etch for both a double and single battery box, but gives no clue which or where to fit them, so I fitted the single box,

 

I'll start the roof, which will be a permanant fit. I'd hoped to use an MJT aluminium one which was in the spares box, but the shape is sufficiently different that I'll use the plastic one in the kit. I'm tolerably happy about where the vents go, but this is another case where a drawing, a la Kirk kits, would have helped. Photos seem to suggest something else going on on the roof above the brake area, but I dont know what, and there are no odd castings I can find in the box.

 

Finally I have started sticking printed Peco seat covers to plastic seats for 2nd class, I dont have a file for the 1st class ones, but tracked down an image for Blue Maquette and will use that, It's just one of my foibles to do this, in blissful ignorance of what the actual colour scheme would be in late LNER/BR days,

 

Photos to follow once the 0.7 cm wire  arrives.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by rowanj

[drmditch]

On 11/11/2023 at 14:36, rowanj said:

I was full of good intentions to go this weekend to the Newcastle MRS show and talk to and join NERA, but the show was cancelled due to the small matter of the school roof blowing off during Storm Babette,

 

 

It was annoying missing the Newcastle Show.  However, there is every good reason why you should join NERA Which you can do here!

 

[jwealleans]

14 hours ago, rowanj said:

The York Truss rods on this coach are a bit different to the LNER turnbuckles, so that scotched my idea to fit MJT ones. The photos seem to show round "rods" rather than flatter bars, so I used 0.7 rod, Each end has a pair running from the queen posts, (which are provided as etches in the kit),to the chassis bottom.

 

They are very distinctive and handy for identifying York built vehicles in photographs.   Rupert Brown (RDEB) is supposed to be working on etches for the 52' underframe including these, but he keeps finding new variations.....