Building kits for Tyneside in the BR era. J24 and PDK D49/2

[Daddyman]

19 hours ago, rowanj said:

The kit has a an etch for both a double and single battery box, but gives no clue which or where to fit them, so I fitted the single box,

Guessing from photos, ex-NER stock seems to have 5' long battery boxes, which don't really match the single D&S ones or any others I know of. Isinglass said he could print some of his at 5' long, but they looked a bit "groovy" to me. I was going to scratchbuild but then made my carriage gas-lit instead. 

 

19 hours ago, rowanj said:

I am left with a whole host of small detail pieces on the etch with no idea what they are or where they go, so on the etch they shall remain. I suppose better modellers thatn me will know what they are for,

Photograph them if you like and I/we will have a go. 

 

19 hours ago, rowanj said:

end of a Dia  162 

It looks like the steps have been removed on the "water column" photo above: 

Though this one at Whitby still had them in early BR days: 

It might be quite difficult to fill the apertures in the etched end for the steps; if you choose to go ahead with steps, note the arrangement of the handrail, which stops in the top right corner, rather than going down the RHS to end level with the LHS (note also that this photo isn't reliable for pipe arrangement on the ends as it's 1936 and the PP gear has been removed):

 

 

There's no reason why this arrangement of pipes from LNER days would have changed (though note that the step position is different as this vehicle has the large square windows): 

 

I'd suggest 0.45 for your trussing; 0.7 will be a bit thick, I think. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Daddyman

[rowanj]

Thanks again, David. As a result, I have (perhaps, maybe) a( possibly) authentic model of a D162 as modified by the LNER and BR, which will have to do .i  opted to paint the coach in crimson,I have no colour photos to substantiate this, though I do have one of the contemporary Arrochar trains in crimson. There are no photos of a D162 in the condition of the as-built kit on the Blyth trains either, so its' all a bit ficticious anyway,

In another thread,  in 2013 Bill Bedford said he could supply etched sides for another ex_NER auto trailer diagram which was in one of my earlier pictures, but it doesnt appear on his latest website., A project for another day, perhaps. In the meantime, here is my seating "foible",It uses moulded seating _Roxey, I think- with Peco printed overlays, I have no idea whether these coaches got the BR uphplstery, so it's just another mystery to add to the pile.

Edited November 24, 2023 by rowanj

[18131r]

Hello

 

Regarding the N.E.R.  battery boxes, I found this supplier on ebay.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275620422239?hash=item402c41e25f:g:yfcAAOSwBFhjszTD

 

I dont know if these represent the 5ft ones mentioned.

 

The seller does indicate that they can be supplied seperately.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Richard

Edited November 25, 2023 by 18131r
to add something

[Daddyman]

38 minutes ago, 18131r said:

Hello

 

Regarding the N.E.R.  battery boxes, I found this supplier on ebay.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275620422239?hash=item402c41e25f:g:yfcAAOSwBFhjszTD

 

I dont know if these represent the 5ft ones mentioned.

 

The seller does indicate that they can be supplied seperately.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Richard

Good find! They're the wrong size, though. But the torpedo vents are the best I've seen. 

[Jon4470]

14 hours ago, rowanj said:

Thanks again, David. As a result, I have (perhaps, maybe) a( possibly) authentic model of a D162 as modified by the LNER and BR, which will have to do .i  opted to paint the coach in crimson,I have no colour photos to substantiate this, though I do have one of the contemporary Arrochar trains in crimson. There are no photos of a D162 in the condition of the as-built kit on the Blyth trains either, so its' all a bit ficticious anyway,

In another thread,  in 2013 Bill Bedford said he could supply etched sides for another ex_NER auto trailer diagram which was in one of my earlier pictures, but it doesnt appear on his latest website., A project for another day, perhaps. In the meantime, here is my seating "foible",It uses moulded seating _Roxey, I think- with Peco printed overlays, I have no idea whether these coaches got the BR uphplstery, so it's just another mystery to add to the pile.

 

Hi John

 

Lurking on Bill’s home page is a link to “lists”. This has all the possible etches that he can do. Having said that, I couldn’t download the list today!
I have a copy from last year though…so if you let me know which diagram, then I can tell you the kit number. If you contact Bill with a kit number he can easily let you know if it is still possible to get the etches produced, albeit at a lead time.

 

I’ve put an attachment on this post…it might open

 

Jon

 

Mousa-Models-Etch-List-Coaches-Pre-Grouping-LNER.pdf

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Jon4470
To put the correct file in the post

[rowanj]

On 25/11/2023 at 12:32, Jon4470 said:

 

Hi John

 

Lurking on Bill’s home page is a link to “lists”. This has all the possible etches that he can do. Having said that, I couldn’t download the list today!
I

Thanks Jon, The diagram I would like is on the list, and I will e.mail Bill. It will be a long-term project anyway, and I doubt I'll get the parts quickly, if at all.

 

 

In the meantime, I have the ex-NER Dia 162 more or less completed, and running in the rake. How accurate it is for a coach running in the mid-50's is a bit of a guess. I dont have a photo of a Dia 162 in this condition running on the Blyth service, But I think the overall look of the rake seems reasonably prototypical, so I can live with it.

 

 

 

The centre coach is an Isinglass kit, as is the ex-LNER Dia 320 next to the TMC/Bachmann G5 . The brake end is facing inward, as seems to have been the usual case on these services, meaning, of course, that it could not be uses as a driving trailer,

[rowanj]

This kit building is addictive, After a ffwe years of Cold Turkey, I have been re-infected by the D&S coach kit. I often thought about another J21 to complete the 3 very distinguishable variations in BR days- non-vacuum brake " goods -only"; vacuum brake long smokebox; and vacuum-brake short smokebox. So the urge has resulted in an order to LRM for a kit, which I'll build as 65033, the preserved example. This was at Tyneside for much of the 50's until withdrawal in 1962, so is fine for Little Benton.

 

I have one of the small AM2 motor/gearbox from DJH in the spares box, and will use Markits wheels, also in the spares collection. I built 65110 a couple of years ago, and can just about remember what issues I had with that kit. Actually, it went together pretty weel, although there are things about it which the more discerning  modellers find fault with. I needed to add a few bits of detailing, and I remember the boiler to cab fitting being a pain, but what I ended up with was good enough for me..

[rowanj]

I know that time seems to move faster as you get older, but I hadnt realised that it was only at the start of the year that I built the LRM kit for my J21, 65110. As the posts and photos are still there, there is little point in doing this one to death, The same issues I had a year ago are still there to haunt me, some of them self-inflicted.

The axle holes on the loco chassis are rediculously small, particularly if you use the bushes supplies, You get perilously close to the edge of the metal, and you can also get a blister from using the broaches, Neither of these are problems if you built the chassis compensated, I'm a rigid man!

I also spent a good while removing the metal around the wheel cut-outs on the footplate, The etch is common to the kits for the J21 and smaller-wheeled J25, so  a fair bit must be removed to allow the 2mm larger drivers to rotate, I also found there was a fair degree of sideplay in the wheels- a mixed- blessing as it allows  the chassis to go round corners, but also means a fair bit of extra filing to prevent the wheel rims touching, 

I assembled the loco and tender chassis and footplates to check running and shorting issues, and after a fair bit of fettling, once bolted together all seems well, I treated myself to a set of dies and taps, as I always seemed to lock up nuts when I soldered them to kits, Perversly, this time they have stayed clear, You just can-t win, but I still have one more to do, so I might get to use the 8BA one.

You need to remove metal from the cab sides, then bend down the tails on the etched boiler to represent the firebox sides, then slide the boiler smoothly into the cab. Well, that's the theory, It didnt work so easily on my J25 nor the J21, and it isnt working easily here, But I know I can do it, and have 65110 in front of me to prove it.I;m not sure if I have enough room to fit the  DJH AM2 motor without it fouling the cab, so that is the next thing to check, Otherwise, I have a couple of High level gearbox kits, and will speak to Chris about an appropriate motor, I actually tested a Mitsumi which might work. These motors are not particularly fast, which isnt an issue on a J21, but are also a bit short on torque, But for 3 coaches or a dozen or so plastic wagons, they should be fine, 

 

 

[micklner]

Buy some Tapered Reamers various sizes available. A Broach is designed to remove tiny amounts of metal at a time. Not to open out holes.

[rowanj]

I THINK I am actually using tapered reamers, bought as a set many moons ago and probably due for replacement. Just spent an interesting 15 minutes on Google on the differences between broaches and reamers and am none the wiser, as it all seems to depend on what sort of broach you are talking about. My largest broach is tapered, and mainly used to open out holes for bushes in chassis. Normally, it only takes a couple of twists...I have never come across the amount of metal I needed to remove on the J21 on other kits.

Edited December 17, 2023 by rowanj

[rowanj]

With the boiler just placed on the chassis, and thus making it look like a scrapyard case, 65033 is on test with my 3 ex-NER coaches. Even without weight, it handled the load easilym but I will add lead on due course. As I suspected, the DJH AM2 was lust too big, in that it protruded into the cab, I uses a mashima 1220 I had with a Highlevel Roadrunner gear box.

Other than some tidying, the chassis is almost finished, and both loco and tender footplates and splashers are pitted to check clearances, which are very tight, I doubt I;ll get much more done over the next week, but the rest is just detailing and not reallly worthy of much comment or photos- unless, of  course, I cock things up....

 

Incidentally, I'm wondering if it's feasible to convert a J25 kit  to represent a J24, I know from Yeadon that the wheelbase was shorter on the J24, but photos of the pair look remarkably similar. I would go with a North Eastern kit, but understand it is long out of stock.

 

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by rowanj

[MarkC]

3 hours ago, rowanj said:

Incidentally, I'm wondering if it's feasible to convert a J25 kit  to represent a J24, I know from Yeadon that the wheelbase was shorter on the J24, but photos of the pair look remarkably similar. I would go with a North Eastern kit, but understand it is long out of stock.

 

As you say, John, the wheelbases are different, albeit only 3mm in 4mm scale. The boiler on the J25 was bigger too, although not hugely so. (Diagram 69 on the J24s, Diagram 67 on the J25s; the latter were slightly longer, but the same diameter). You'll have spotted the slight differences in, for example. front sandboxes too - but working from a photo of your desired loco would show details better.

 

Arthur's daughter has said that she hopes to keep Arthur's kits going, so you never know; the J24 might be re-released at some time.

 

Cheers

Mark

Edited December 24, 2023 by MarkC

[micklner]

This J24 is a right mongrel.

Falcon Brass Loco body/chassis etches only sourced via ebay. Castings from Arthur and a Oxford J27 Tender again from ebay.

The etches were as usual basic in the extreme. The worse bit was the coupling rods ,as no one does the correct spacing for the J24 , I used universal Gibson rods which I always find a real pain to use. Road Runner Plus Box with a vertical 1015 motor fitted.

 

 

[rowanj]

Although I did take a number of photos during the build, mainly to check how it was looking, I frankly could not see any point in postibg them. How many hundreds of this kit have been built since it was originally lintroduced  getting on for 50 years ago? And by much better modellers than me.

 

 I didnt do anything unusual to the kit. I've built a J21 before, and the similar J25 and still struggle to get the boiler cab adaptation right,  Clearances for 20mm Romfords were very tight, and I needed some pretty serious filing before the wheels wouldnt short, I was glad I used the vive chassis method, as I would not have wanted to foght uninsulated wheels on both sides. Having said that, I don;t see why anyone with even moderate experience  would have a problem building this kit.

 

I wanted 65033, the preserved loco, in its' post 1956 guise, -after its' last General at Darlington. Yeadon 47A has a photo of each side so that was the basis. Using 0.7mm rod, I added the pipework which runs along the bottom of the valance on both sides, and the long LH and short RH rods leading to the front sandboxes. The dome and smokebox are from ArthurK, and I used a hook and bar combo from loco to tender,

On my layout thread, I'll show photos of  33 alongside 65110, the other survivor into the 60's.- they were overhauled, and the superheater removed at more or less the same time, On 65033, I fitted the shorter smokebox, fitted when the superheater was removed. I was surprised to see the link from the LH centre driver to the mechanical lubricator had been removed from 33 but left on 110 after the superheater was removed, so that saved a job and created another visual difference between the pair. they will work alongside my Dave Alexander version, which is the loco with vacuum brake removed and brake linkage behind the wheels.

 

So here it is, awaiting a bit of touching up. then weathering. I know folk find some the inaccuracies in the dimensions - I forget what they are, but I think the splashers were an issue-but I'm content with how it turned out. Just don't use the supplied axle bushes, and save yourself hours of work and blistered fingers!

[rowanj]

NorthEastern Kits recently did a run of the D20, and I managed to get one. I'm at the very early stage of the build, but one thing I hope to do is build 62383, one of the locos based at Alnmouth which had a rebuilt tender top more or less akin to the smaller GS3500 Gallon version. Whether I get away with this without spoiling the tender remains to be seen, but I have begun to cut out the sides.

The photo shows how the new tender, in my opinion, does nothing for the sleek looks of the loco when it was paired with an original ex-NER version, However this will give me an appropriate loco for the layout, and provide a counterpoint to the DJH version I built some time ago,

 

I'll post a photo of that version here for comparison purposes. If I remember correctly, the kit was of a saturated (original) loco, with a short smokebox and Worsdell frames, which I extended and replaced with the Raven version. The DJH tender was replaced by one from Dave Alexander, and is now towed behind a J39. 

[Pebbles]

2 hours ago, rowanj said:

NorthEastern Kits recently did a run of the D20, and I managed to get one. I'm at the very early stage of the build, but one thing I hope to do is build 62383, one of the locos based at Alnmouth which had a rebuilt tender top more or less akin to the smaller GS3500 Gallon version. Whether I get away with this without spoiling the tender remains to be seen, but I have begun to cut out the sides.

The photo shows how the new tender, in my opinion, does nothing for the sleek looks of the loco when it was paired with an original ex-NER version, However this will give me an appropriate loco for the layout, and provide a counterpoint to the DJH version I built some time ago,

 

I'll post a photo of that version here for comparison purposes. If I remember correctly, the kit was of a saturated (original) loco, with a short smokebox and Worsdell frames, which I extended and replaced with the Raven version. The DJH tender was replaced by one from Dave Alexander, and is now towed behind a J39. 

Mikemeg was exploring building this type of re-tanked tender some years ago it might be worth contacting him.

[rowanj]

1 hour ago, Pebbles said:

Mikemeg was exploring building this type of re-tanked tender some years ago it might be worth contacting him.

He didnt go ahead, unfortunately, I should be OK if I can find a decent top-down view, and a view of the front end, For all I know, they were not changed during the rebuild, but I'll not make any irreperable change to the kit until I find out.

[Pebbles]

15 minutes ago, rowanj said:

He didnt go ahead, unfortunately, I should be OK if I can find a decent top-down view, and a view of the front end, For all I know, they were not changed during the rebuild, but I'll not make any irreperable change to the kit until I find out.

Isinglass Drawing 404 has the ex GCR iteration of the re-tanking. There are possibly differences due to the difference in tender wheel diameter  those of the GCR intruding into the tank. However, as far as can be established for modelling purposes. only the front of the tenders would be different to suit the various locos.  

 

 

[micklner]

These may help

 

O gauge   with kit  photos

https://www.ellisclarktrains.co.uk/products/dmr-products-o-gauge-4mr-t4-lner-3500g-g-standard-tender-kit-1

 

A pending? 4mm kit of the same make.

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/4-20278

 

 

Dave Bradwell does a superb kit as well.

 

https://traders.scalefour.org/DaveBradwell/locos-tenders/

 

Edited January 27 by micklner

[Blandford1969]

6 hours ago, rowanj said:

NorthEastern Kits recently did a run of the D20, and I managed to get one. I'm at the very early stage of the build, but one thing I hope to do is build 62383, one of the locos based at Alnmouth which had a rebuilt tender top more or less akin to the smaller GS3500 Gallon version. Whether I get away with this without spoiling the tender remains to be seen, but I have begun to cut out the sides.

The photo shows how the new tender, in my opinion, does nothing for the sleek looks of the loco when it was paired with an original ex-NER version, However this will give me an appropriate loco for the layout, and provide a counterpoint to the DJH version I built some time ago,

 

I'll post a photo of that version here for comparison purposes. If I remember correctly, the kit was of a saturated (original) loco, with a short smokebox and Worsdell frames, which I extended and replaced with the Raven version. The DJH tender was replaced by one from Dave Alexander, and is now towed behind a J39. 

I have been looking at this modified tender too. I have managed to find a near side on photo and then do a very basic drawing. I will scan it and post it tomorrow. Not sure if it will help but it might

[rowanj]

I  spent a couple of hours looking through all the photos I have of the D20 with the modified tender, I'll be able to build suitable sides and back, and have a good idea where the coal dividers go, but still can't identify the water filler, or details of the fronk bulkhead, However....

 

i assembled the dummy chassis - a really nice etching, The tender footplate, like all of Arthur's kits which I have built, comes in 2 layers, The lower one has the inner and outer buffer beams and side valances attached, and these are folded down using the half-etched lines. All very easy, but this revealed an issue with my homemade new sides, which I had been beginning to suspect.,

 

On the real thing, the descriptions all talk about the new sides as "similar to GS 3500 gallon", which they are. They were used when the original coal rails began to rot, and were a skin added over the original sides. I cut my part from an Ian Beattie drawing, and it is now clear that, while they may be accurate for an LNER tender, they are  about 1 ft shorter than those fitted to the D20.

 

I'll go back to my photo stash to see where the extra space occurs, and try to cut out a side of the correct length, then see where we go. from here.

[Daddyman]

39 minutes ago, rowanj said:

I  spent a couple of hours looking through all the photos I have of the D20 with the modified tender, I'll be able to build suitable sides and back, and have a good idea where the coal dividers go, but still can't identify the water filler, or details of the fronk bulkhead, However....

 

i assembled the dummy chassis - a really nice etching, The tender footplate, like all of Arthur's kits which I have built, comes in 2 layers, The lower one has the inner and outer buffer beams and side valances attached, and these are folded down using the half-etched lines. All very easy, but this revealed an issue with my homemade new sides, which I had been beginning to suspect.,

 

On the real thing, the descriptions all talk about the new sides as "similar to GS 3500 gallon", which they are. They were used when the original coal rails began to rot, and were a skin added over the original sides. I cut my part from an Ian Beattie drawing, and it is now clear that, while they may be accurate for an LNER tender, they are  about 1 ft shorter than those fitted to the D20.

 

I'll go back to my photo stash to see where the extra space occurs, and try to cut out a side of the correct length, then see where we go. from here.

Do you need to cut a new side? Remember the rebuilt one has that weird bit of what you might call "double bodyside" at the front end - a sheet of metal set inboard of the new bodyside and protruding forward of it, on which the handrail is mounted - could that account for the extra foot? It almost looks like a section of the old tender side has been retained, though this surely cannot be the case.  

[rowanj]

Re Daddyman's comment,  Yeadon is quite clear that new tender bodies were built, However, captions to relevant photos in my Bellwood Books state equally clearly that the original tender bodies had the rorron coal rails removed and new skins fitted over the exisiting sides. It looks like the tender sides are in 2 parts, The bottom part reaches to a point where the curve on the NER tender would have begun, and a second piece is welded from there completing the tender side, and giving them the GS look. A similar looking mod appears at the rear.

 

I'm still trying to work out the difference in dimensions, The sides certainly need to be about 4mm longer than my original effort. The front curve is shorter than on my first effort, but I cant quite tell from the photos where the curve at the back of the tender begins, The whole tender sides also look to be taller than a GS version,

 

I think what I need to do is complete the tender chassis and footplate, then, short of tracking down a photo or drawing with the appropriate dimensions, construct a few plasticard versions until I get something which looks like what I can see in the various photos.

 

I see now why Mike didnt bother....

 

 

[Blandford1969]

From looking at the best photos I could find manipulation to get it about square and then lots of comparing lines and angles this is what I got to.  In terms of the filler it seemed to be about the size and height of one on a Q6/7 etc.  From conversations elsewhere the front bulkhead is basicly a NE one like a B16/Q6 etc.  The sides  by the way are the same lenght as the original tender body.

Hope that helps. 

 

Edited January 28 by Blandford1969

[Daddyman]

The drawing shows the "outer" tender side (for want of a better term) extending to the front edge of the footplate, and the handrail attached to it, whereas in reality I think the side stops short of the front footplate edge to reveal an "inner" section of side on which the handrail is mounted. The drawing also shows a straight diagonal leading edge to the front cut-out, when in reality it has an S-shaped double curve.

 

Clicking on the photo below allows it to be blown up.