Bachmann vs Lima class 47 Pectinidae?

[faa77]

Bachmann's Class 47 Pectinidae retails for ~£100 whereas Lima's version on ebay is around £40. Now, with such a price difference I thought I would spot a massive difference from pictures. However, being a newbie I cannot see much difference (I am sure it would be easier in person but there is no shop near me).

 

Could the more-experienced members please explain how/why the Bachmann model is superior (I assume it is, because I keep reading Lima is very poor quality)? Perhaps its not looks and the Bachmann engine is far superior??

 

I am trying to gauge whether its worth paying the premium for the Bachmann.

[Baby Deltic]

You'd need a filing cabinet for all the reasons the Bachy 47 is better.

[Tim Hall]

You can pick up the Bachy version for a lot less than £100 from many places at present. Without checking, I think Rails have it for £70ish.

[mevaman]

Bachmann's Class 47 Pectinidae retails for ~£100 whereas Lima's version on ebay is around £40. Now, with such a price difference I thought I would spot a massive difference from pictures. However, being a newbie I cannot see much difference (I am sure it would be easier in person but there is no shop near me).

 

Could the more-experienced members please explain how/why the Bachmann model is superior (I assume it is, because I keep reading Lima is very poor quality)? Perhaps its not looks and the Bachmann engine is far superior??

 

I am trying to gauge whether its worth paying the premium for the Bachmann.

The key differences are drive system, detail and livery application.

 

The Bachmann 47 has a central motor with flywheel driving both bogies. Combined with pickups on all wheels means that it will generally run more smoothly and consistently than the Lina version. Also the Bachmann 47 will pull more owing to its greater weight combined with the drive to both bogies. Additionally the Bachmann 47 is DCC ready meaning that, unlike the Lima loco, fitting a decoder is very simple and requires no soldering.

 

The Bachmann 47 is more detailed than the Lima loco. It has many separately applied parts and flush glazing. It's underframe is accuratel for each particular loco and us far better, with more depth of relief.

 

The finish on the Bachmann 47 is better than the Lima version. The paint finish has more density of colour. Also several Lima diesel models use the yellow plastic for the ends rather than a painted finish.

 

Hope that this helps.

[ThaneofFife]

im sure the Bachmann model also came with a full raft of lighting features too (head, tail and cab lights, possibly a high intensity headlight too).

Also sprung buffers are a neat feature of the newer model plus you get full bufferbeam detailing.

With the drive system improvements and heavier weight of the loco you should find it pulls longer loads much better without affecting the initial take off or slow crawl. The Lima relies on its traction tyres and only powers one bogie.

The Bachmann 47 is also DCC/sound ready whereas the Lima isn't and would require some work.

Without sound the new model runs much quieter than the old Lima pancake motors.

The Lima motor cannot be tweaked so its either on or off almost, whereas a dcc fitted Bachmann model can be adjusted via the various CVs to suit your layout.

[Baby Deltic]

You can also get Heljan 47's fairly cheap nowadays. Although they have been criticised because of their width, they still make a good representation and have excellent slow running and haulage capabilities to match the Bachmann model. My main criticism of all the class 47's is the wipers not being twin arm on the early liveried varients.

[SRman]

Agreeing with Baby Deltic above (and previous posters as well), I like the Heljan models for their running qualities; if anything they are more powerful and quieter than the Bachmann mechanism, good as that is.

Bachmann probably win on finish and finer detail, but I do like my Hejan "tubby duffs".

I do have one Lima NSE body, mounted on a ViTrains 47 chassis (there's another contender for your cash!). The ViTrains chassis is on a par with Bachmann for haulage power and smoothness, but tends to be a little noisier, although not unpleasantly so. ViTrains class 47s are also very detailed and well finished, but you have to apply a lot of the detail yourself from the bits supplied. They can be found going for reasonable prices too.

OK, here we go. Edited to include comparative photos.

Green Bachmann D1764 with full yellow ends stands beside green Heljan D1734. The extra width of the Heljan one is apparent in the frontal view but generally not so obtrusive in the others. This particular Heljan model has the earlier radiator fixed grille arrangement. I can also vouch for the weight - the Heljan one is noticeably heavier than all the others and is absolutely silent in its running (except when I turn the Howes sounds on!).

 






Network South East Bachmann 47 715 in front, Lima bodied 47 582 on ViTrains chassis behind. This may not be quite a fair comparison as the Lima one represents the earlier NSE livery with a lighter blue, but the sheer depth of the colours on the Bachmann one wins hands down for me. I have not touched the livery on the Lima body, apart from blending the ViTrains chassis in around the buffer beam fairings.








I hope this helps a bit, without muddying the waters too much. I think the upshot of all this is that any of the Bachmann/Heljan/ViTrains models are better than Lima as far as detail and running qualities go. Only the (hitherto unmentioned) older Triang-Hornby model would be a less desirable choice.

[stovepipe]

Interesting - I think its fair to say on this evidence no-one has really nailed the class 47, particularly from end on. The Heljan's windows are too large, the pillars too narrow, and the handrail curve is over-done. The green Bachmann windows have the class 57 surrounds (but not present on 47715?), and the front looks just too square, missing the subtle curve in the ledge across the width under the windows. The Lima one again has too much curve across the width, exagerated by the handrail, and the headcode panel is too large. Although not shown here, I suspect the Vi-trains one might just be the best of the lot looks wise?

[Melly]

You can also get Heljan 47's fairly cheap nowadays. Although they have been criticised because of their width, they still make a good representation and have excellent slow running and haulage capabilities to match the Bachmann model. My main criticism of all the class 47's is the wipers not being twin arm on the early liveried varients.

 

Really. . . . . have you seen the prices on ebay?  Considering the delays in new production slots and the fact that Heljan 47's are now obsolete the 2nd hand prices are no where near as low as they were 18 months ago.

[SRman]

Interesting - I think its fair to say on this evidence no-one has really nailed the class 47, particularly from end on. The Heljan's windows are too large, the pillars too narrow, and the handrail curve is over-done. The green Bachmann windows have the class 57 surrounds (but not present on 47715?), and the front looks just too square, missing the subtle curve in the ledge across the width under the windows. The Lima one again has too much curve across the width, exagerated by the handrail, and the headcode panel is too large. Although not shown here, I suspect the Vi-trains one might just be the best of the lot looks wise?

 

Not to mention the Lima moulded handrails. Unfortunately, I don't actually own a ViTrains model, otherwise I would have included that in the comparison too. I had to modify the Lima cab interior to fit the ViTrains lighting, but that doesn't affect the exterior aspects.

[tamperman36]

The basic points being the Lima 47 is about 15 to 20 years old and was the best model available at that time. It has a nicely moulded body, however the chassis had a single large box moulding for the weight which allows no variation or detail depth on the battery box & tank area. It was powered by a 3 pole pancake motor through 2 axles on 1 bogie with electrical pickup from both bogies (NOT, however all wheels). The chassis were held on using the moulded plastic buffers and bogies each have large full width couplings moulded as part of the bogies.

 

The Bachmann model is made to the modern standards. It is a current model, the body has more detail, it is fitted with lighting. The chassis has a centrally mounted 5 pole, scew wound can motor with prewired digital socket (if you wish to chip it for DCC). This motor drives both bogies through drive shafts to gear towers. The chassis has seperatly fitted tank/battery box detail which is available in every version . Bachmann loco is fitted with sprung buffers an small couplings in N.E.M boxes.

[Baby Deltic]

Really. . . . . have you seen the prices on ebay?  Considering the delays in new production slots and the fact that Heljan 47's are now obsolete the 2nd hand prices are no where near as low as they were 18 months ago.

I picked up a Heljan D1932 for £40 last week. If EBay is your sole point of purchase, you are going to get seriously robbed.

[richierich]

Kernow have the Bachmann weathered version on offer for £83.99 I believe.

[rob D2]

Bachmann every time. Lima main advantage was chucking out lots of well done liveries, but the drive train and chassis were from 1970.

 

Cue dxxxxsxxxx who will tell us we are not ' proper modellers ' and ' box shakers ' cos we don't stick bits on Lima anymore...

[PenrithBeacon]

Has anyone done a comparison between the Bachmann and ViTrains?

 

Regards

[dj_crisp]

For me it's only Bachmann or vitrains 47s and I don't think you can make a bad choice between them. I really liked my lima 47s but then that was 20 years ago. However there are faults with all and I don't think there is one that is quite right as all have issues... especially around the window frames. There is an excellent article on the web on converting a Bachmann 47 to P4 which covers all of bachmanns shortcomings.

 

Overall I prefer vitrains which looks much better when lowered and I prefer it's bogies. I'm having a go at a RES version atm by fitting shawplan's window frames etc. But then again I rather enjoy fitting the bits n pieces and vitrains is easier to work with.

 

Tbh the one you're happy with is the best one

 

Cheers

Will

[Tim Hall]

Never owned a Vitrains loco, but the yellow on a lot of the ends looks plastic to me in shop cabinets.

[Derekstuart]

Hello FAA77

 

There have already been a few objective and rational arguments in favour of the Bachmann model (I would ignore the comments about needing filing cabinets. Someone perhaps with more time than brains?)

 

One wise chap above has suggested that no one has yet produced a definitive Brush 4- and probably won't, at least for some time. But I would argue that in terms of the overall shape, the Lima 47 comes far closer to looking right than the Bachmann one. Though as it has been pointed out it is an old tool (actually much older than stated here) and lacks some detail such as moulded grab rails, and the central battery/fuel tank area is just a solid block- that said, the hand rails on the Bachmann are far too chunky anyway. The bogies on the Lima version are far more convincing than the Bachmann offering with its Ford Fiesta springs and other missing detail, although Lima does duplicate pipework on the second-man side which should not be there.

 

In terms of looks, if you want to get a 47, open the box and tip it onto the track I would agree that the Bachmann one is a better option for you. If you want to produce an accurate 47 then (in terms of looks) it really does not matter which you go for as you have to do a lot of work. Grab rails- one is moulded, one is coarse. Bogies- both need work. Underframe- Bachmann only model the obvious bits anyway, so work is required. The cab windows on the Bachmann are just not right- the Lima ones have a very odd frame but are closer to the required shape.

 

Look for a chap named Jon020- he did a thread on producing the ultimate 47 and many of us have followed his work (he did use a Bachmann model as the base, but it serves to show how much is wrong with it).

 

Now let us talk about the great central can motor driving 2 bogies with 3 axles... Yes it is impressive- you can't deny that and I would estimate it pulling twice the load of a Lima chassis. But I wonder whether people might well be exaggerating the benefit of this- how many have layouts where they will want to pull a 14 carriage train at 90mph?


DISCLAIMER: I have made these points before and received abuse by a small number for doing so. Most people respect my right to my view in the same way that I respect theirs. I am not anti Bachmann and am well aware that the 1990's are over and that things have moved on. I have merely decided that if I am going to do the work necessary to complete one to how I want it then A) I might as well start with one that cost peanuts and B) has the right shape.

 

I have been accused of trying to model this on the cheap- au contraire. The loco is peanuts (either ebay or a RR 47 from the shop). Then a set of Shawplan etches, new etched bogies (compensated if we must), sprung buffers, stainless steel wire (not brass- it's too malleable), buffer beam kit, new wheels (ALL RTR wheels are horrible), plastic and brass for the underframe then the new motor and gears (there is nothing wrong with a well maintained Lima motor but I am using kit bogies so they won't fit).... I am nearly finished and not too far from painting. I can tell you that this is NOT a cheap way to a 47 as some will claim.

Whatever you do, good luck.

(PS on reflection- I recommend NO ONE buys any Lima stuff on ebay. Ever.. keeps more stock available and at a lower price for the rest of us. Haha)

[Melly]

I picked up a Heljan D1932 for £40 last week. If EBay is your sole point of purchase, you are going to get seriously robbed.

 

So you got a one off deal from a undisclosed source - that hardly qualifies as generic Heljan being available at discount prices.

[richierich]

It all depends what you want against the parameters of detail, time and cost. . . . . 

 

Here are few links to James Well's Eastmoor blog on the subject of Class 47 models.

 

http://eastmoor.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/class-47.html

 

http://eastmoor.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/low-tech-progress.html

 

http://eastmoor.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/duff-progress.html

 

http://eastmoor.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/class-47-progress.html

 

http://eastmoor.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/hybrid-class-47.html

 

http://eastmoor.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-duff-option.html

 

http://eastmoor.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/a-class-47-on-budget.html

 

http://eastmoor.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/class-47-progress.html

 

 

Jim Wright-Smith's web site has some commentary on this debate too.

[Baby Deltic]

So you got a one off deal from a undisclosed source - that hardly qualifies as generic Heljan being available at discount prices.

My local model shop has about half a dozen Heljan 47's (ex stock unused) for around £80 each. Used Heljan 47's tend to go for half that price when the are available.

[Enterprisingwestern]

There are 2 types of modeller generally speaking, which ever piece of rolling stock we are talking about, the ones who are quite happy with the model as puchased and used without modification, and those who are willing and able to do varying amounts of reconstruction work to achieve their aim.

This thread proves the fact and we should all respect each others opinions.

The answer to the OP's original question is which camp he sees himself in, and as a starting or finishing point, is a £20 Lima model a better deal than others which can cost up to 4 times as much?

 

Mike

[faa77]

Hi guys, thanks for all the replies. I actually found a youtube video of a Lima Class 47 Pectinidae and it sounded absolutely awful, like a wind-up toy.

[Clive Mortimore]

There are 2 types of modeller generally speaking, which ever piece of rolling stock we are talking about, the ones who are quite happy with the model as puchased and used without modification, and those who are willing and able to do varying amounts of reconstruction work to achieve their aim.

This thread proves the fact and we should all respect each others opinions.

The answer to the OP's original question is which camp he sees himself in, and as a starting or finishing point, is a £20 Lima model a better deal than others which can cost up to 4 times as much?

 

Mike

Hi Mike

 

Well said, just I fall into both types depending on the model and my mood.

 

As the owner of loads of Hornby (with both types of pancake motor), Lima, Heljan, Bachmann and Vitrains, some reworked, some not, I like them all. The more modern models are better both visually and running wise but none of them have the same haulage power as my MTK loco with its double MTK power bogies. None of them make as much racket as it does.

 

I am looking forward to spending time over Xmas in making a Modern Outline Kit type 4 1/2 that has been on the shelf for a long time and finishing a plastic card model I started when the whole class was still owned by British Rail.

[jonathan452]

Though Bachmann have yet to produce a Class 47 (47/8) in Red Virgin Trains livery. I believe VI trains released two versions.