Euston to Holyhead before the HST's - formation info wanted

[cornish trains jez]

Good evening all,

 

I'm currently building a model of Euston station (yes I'm mad!) set late 80's and I was wondering if anyone could help me with the Euston to Holyhead formations before the HST's arrived.

 

Some initial research has revealed that they were electric hauled from Euston and then there was an engine change somewhere along the way to a diesel - class 37 of 47. Coach rakes seem to be generally MK3's and MK2 air cons. However, the rakes I'm interested in are the short rakes of around 5 or 6 MK2a/b's with a MK1 BG.

 

Did they leave Euston like this or were they attached to another service?

 

Any help or photos would be great help please. Thank you all in advance!

 

Best regards,

 

Jeremy

[TheSignalEngineer]

The BR loco-hauled coaching stock Yahoo Group has LMR Marshalling Circulars up to 1985/6. Those may give you a bit of a lead.

[Merfyn Jones]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/merf29/albums

 

The main Euston - Holyhead trains were mainly Mk2 air con. with some Mk3. sets. They may have been the same as used on the Manchester/Liverpool/ Glasgow and Wolverhamptons. That is about 5 TSO, RBR, FO, 2 FK with the appropriate brake at each end.

My flickr site may help with shots for your period, search for above

No short rakes at all, even the relief sets were 10 or 11 Mk.1s.

 

 

 

[coachmann]

The 'Eustons' at the period you mentioned were always Class 47 hauled with regular locos. Forget 37's. 

[cornish trains jez]

Thank you everyone for your help so far.

 

coachmann, I wasn't sure on the 37's to be honest. Were they 47 hauled all the way from Euston or did they change from electric haulage along the way?

 

Merfyn Jones - thank you for the formations, that's very handy. The short rake I mentioned was this one here https://flic.kr/p/edGztUand also this one https://flic.kr/p/evjysf

This is why I was thinking that maybe they were added onto another service then split at Crewe or somewhere.

 

TheSignalEngineer, I'll check out the forum, thank you.

 

Best regards,

 

Jeremy

[tender]

I remember travelling Euston to Bangor which started as Electric with an engine change to Diesel at Crewe. Can't remember the exact dates but probably late 70's early 80's. Don't remember the coaches ever being split.

[GordonC]

It would normally be Crewe they'd change engines and be electric hauled to and from Euston

 

Were those relief services? I always thought the Euston to Holyheads were pretty much normal full length WCML sets.

 

I'm no coaching guru but those coaches in the pictures look at least Mk2b's if not c's. I only noticed a single one with the middle door of Mk2a's.

[Bomag]

One photo was on a bank holiday an the other in August. Both look to be reliefs as the standard set would, by 1989, have a Mk3 RFM if not a DVT as well.

 

It is likley that the coaches would have been spare Mk2Cs allocated to WC services (Mk2bs were mostly NSE). On summer Saturdays on the WCML you could see a whole range of coaches, basically anything WB could get their hands on.

[Gwiwer]

The locos were always changed at Crewe under normal operating circumstances.  Electrics could not (and still cannot) go farther and there was no need to run diesels for miles "under the wires" in those days.

 

The London - North Wales sets were full length as others have said and with air-con Mk2 stock but a Mk1 RBR and BG in the formations.  Relief trains would possibly have been provided by using EBW sets (Euston - Birmingham - Wolverhampton) based at Oxley and every bit as long.  The mid-80s pre-dated the use of "Director's Reserve" Mk1 rakes which in any case more commonly ran to the Cambrian than the North Wales Coast.

 

Don't confuse the London workings with the loco-hauled Manchester trains along the coast which were shorter and formed of early Mk2 (and sometimes Mk1) stock.  Even in the Sprinter era some of those survived especially in summer when a 2-car train was nowhere near enough.

[ChrisH-UK]

One photo was on a bank holiday an the other in August. Both look to be reliefs as the standard set would, by 1989, have a Mk3 RFM if not a DVT as well.

 

It is likley that the coaches would have been spare Mk2Cs allocated to WC services (Mk2bs were mostly NSE). On summer Saturdays on the WCML you could see a whole range of coaches, basically anything WB could get their hands on.

It wasn't until 1991 or later that the Holyhead trains might have had a DVT apart from exceptional circumstances, before then the trains were usually formed from coaches allocated to Euston Downside (used for Holyhead services and the Clansman). Around 89/90 RFMs were the norm but EN also had a few RBRs, Mk2e BSOs at the north end and a BG at the south, and FOs replacing the FKs that Merfyn mentioned.

[mjkerr]

Search google for "WCML Passenger Train Formations 1986/1987 Natalie Jones"
This covers the period just as InterCity raspberry ripple was introduced, and just before the HST was introduced

Two rakes as at 1986/1987
Rakes :
WB260
WB261
7 x Mk2C SK, 2 x Mk2D SO, Mk2D FK, Mk2C BFK

WB260
01:00 Holyhead - Euston
09:11 Euston - Holyhead
Sunday diagrams
WB261
12:45 Holyhead - Euston
21:45 Euston - Holyhead
Sunday diagrams

WB572
Mk 3A SLE, Mk 3A SLEP
MA263 / MA277 / WB572 01:15 Holyhead - Euston

Attached to rear of 06:50 Glasgow - Euston for movement to Wembley

MA262 / WB572 17:03 Euston - Holyhead (empty sleepers)
Sadly no details of these MA sets
 

[caradoc]

My recollection of the early 1980s is that the all-year round Euston/Holyheads were air-con mark 2s, whereas summer-only additional services were solid mark 1s. In all cases locos were changed at Crewe, with mostly Class 47 but possibly also Class 40 from there.

[P.C.M]

Hi Jeremy,

Thanks to Rick who put me onto this thread. I have been modelling North Wales for a few years now and Merf's Flickr site is most useful. 

 

I think most trains were MK2Fs with MK1 RBR  and later a MK3 Buffet coach and MK1 NEX NEA s. If you look at the next pic back in your second link it shows a more standard formation. I think your short rakes could be relief services as mentioned.

 

Top work on the layout by the way, I always liked Euston as a kid always plenty going on with plenty of loco hauled trains. I do remember seeing a class 47 arrive one time but the only other diesel loco I ever saw at Euston was a class 25 shunting vans.

 

Cheers Peter.

[cornish trains jez]

Hi everyone,

 

Thank you all for your input and useful information. I can now put a couple of suitable rakes together to cover these services. I think I'll throw in a relief service just for additional interest.

 

Just one more question if I may; would it have been a solid turn for an 86 from Euston or could it equally have been 87 or 90, depending on what was available?

 

Best regards,

 

Jeremy

[Gwiwer]

Not totally certain about this but the Holyheads were often regarded as second-fiddle duties when I worked at Euston (which was in the early 80s, did involve trains but was not part of the running of them) and could produce an 81 or 85 right up until they were withdrawn.  But usually an 86 as you suggest.

[coachmann]

The shallow window Mk.II stock predominated in the late 1980s with occasional earlier Mk.II's in the formation and almost always a full brake at the Euston end. Some trains were all-Inter-City livery but most were a mix of InterCity and blue & grey stock. The full brakes seemed to always carry InterCity livery. A couple Mk.III coaches could also be found in formations. Trains were always long ones, including the reliefs. Some relief workings were all-Mk.I stock but it was getting rarer as 1990 approached. The short trains you have seen would be Manchester or Cardiff workings. From a traction viewpoint, the mid 1980s were the most interesting times whne Crewe was busy refurbishing Clases 37's and 47's. This era brought Scotrail livery locos to Wales. Large-Logo was the in thing as well as freight grey and red-band. The Summer 1985 timetable brought Class 33's to N.Wales on a regular basis, although these terminated in Llandudno or Bangor. 'Peaks' were also on the line from 1982 but again they didn't always work through to Holyhead. 

[Gwiwer]

 

 

The Summer 1985 timetable brought Class 33's to N.Wales on a regular basis, although these terminated in Llandudno or Bangor.

 

And were never found on the London trains.  The diagrams were essentially an extension of the Eastleigh-based Portsmouth - Cardiff rosters with locos berthed at Canton then heading up to Manchester and thence to North Wales before returning home on a three or four-day cycle.  They were under-powered for the long London rakes and wouldn't have coped with air-con in addition to load 11 which was the single-engine limit.  They were also limited to 85mph against the class 47 at 95mph though that made little difference west of Chester.

[cornish trains jez]

How about this for a nice collection of rolling stock. It's dated 1986 but I'm sure I could allow this one as its an interesting formation.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/69947186@N08/8299281501/in/faves-76701905@N08/

[P.C.M]

Hi everyone,

 

Thank you all for your input and useful information. I can now put a couple of suitable rakes together to cover these services. I think I'll throw in a relief service just for additional interest.

 

Just one more question if I may; would it have been a solid turn for an 86 from Euston or could it equally have been 87 or 90, depending on what was available?

 

Best regards,

 

Jeremy

Hi Jeremy,

My Loco Hauled travel 1987-88 has the trains booked booked class 86 weekdays and weekends, and a few class 87s booked on Sunday trains.

 

Cheers Peter.

[P.C.M]

How about this for a nice collection of rolling stock. It's dated 1986 but I'm sure I could allow this one as its an interesting formation.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/69947186@N08/8299281501/in/faves-76701905@N08/

Nice, I am tempted to add a MK3 in one of my rakes now.

 

Cheers Peter.

[Gwiwer]

Nice, I am tempted to add a MK3 in one of my rakes now.

 

Cheers Peter.

 

Also confirms my comment about using 85s.

[roythebus]

In 1974 when I worked at Rugby, we used to run  a Euston-Holyhead in the evening as far as Crewe, that loaded to 16 vehicles at times! Probably the Holyhead Mail, it was a bloody heavy train. If we were lucky we had an 86, otherwise it was an 81 or 85, never an 87, they were reserved at the time for the Scottish trains.

[Merfyn Jones]

Not a lot to add to what has been said by others. However although the electric was normally replaced by a 47/4 at Crewe, things could go wrong.

In Virgin days an 'error' happened when Crewe did not detatch the electric, and just put the 47 on the front. It got as far as Llandudno Junction before one RMweb member had it removed and parked up by his box so that Crewe could come and collect it.

[GordonC]

Not a lot to add to what has been said by others. However although the electric was normally replaced by a 47/4 at Crewe, things could go wrong.

In Virgin days an 'error' happened when Crewe did not detatch the electric, and just put the 47 on the front. It got as far as Llandudno Junction before one RMweb member had it removed and parked up by his box so that Crewe could come and collect it.

 

I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one picture of a Class 90 dead-in-train somewhere on the North Wales coast. Not sure if thats the 'error' mentioned above or if that was another incident

[Natalie]

Search google for "WCML Passenger Train Formations 1986/1987 Natalie Jones"

This covers the period just as InterCity raspberry ripple was introduced, and just before the HST was introduced

 

Two rakes as at 1986/1987

Rakes :

WB260

WB261

7 x Mk2C SK, 2 x Mk2D SO, Mk2D FK, Mk2C BFK

WB260

01:00 Holyhead - Euston

09:11 Euston - Holyhead

Sunday diagrams

WB261

12:45 Holyhead - Euston

21:45 Euston - Holyhead

Sunday diagrams

 

WB572

Mk 3A SLE, Mk 3A SLEP

MA263 / MA277 / WB572 01:15 Holyhead - Euston

Attached to rear of 06:50 Glasgow - Euston for movement to Wembley

MA262 / WB572 17:03 Euston - Holyhead (empty sleepers)

Sadly no details of these MA sets

 

Hi Mike

 

Firstly thanks for the mention of the above.

 

The MA set details should be in the document-the above is just the elements of the sleeper services . There are a lot more services to Holyhead within the document such as those provided by MA and OY. It detailed all the workings of the EN, WB, OY, LL, MA and CL sets. Incidentally the two MA sets 262/263 above were formed Mk 2d BSO, 5x Mk 2d TSO, RBR, 2x Mk 2d FO, NEA. In the context of the vehicles types those detailed as 2c (as they were in the Marshalling book) to mean 'non-air con Mk2s, and '2D' to mean air con Mk2s. MA277 I seem to have missed - apologies for that- text will be subsequently entered. The MA sets 266-27x were sets that were usually used on InterRegional services or 'local' WCML trains and didn't have any trips to London that I could see-doh!- hence MA277's inadvertent omission. Am really grateful you found it. Only the sets that reached London in Summer 1986 were described- the rest are 'to do'. MA277 was formed of 2 Mk2d SO and worked 1D43 0920 EU-Holyhead (at the front) returning on 1A04 0115 Holyhead- Euston

 

Members of BRCS yahoo group can download the document from the files, anyone else interested just leave a message in my box with your email details and a (corrected!) pdf copy will wing its way to you.