Oxford Rail announces - OO gauge Mk3 coaches

[Nile_Griffith]

Mr Oxford Diecast was certainly very definite at October being the time that all relevant details were going to be released to the press and public. We did have an amusing chat on how trying to track down a definitive Mk3 was a pretty uphill task and their frustrations at finding out about the sheer amount of "Freelancing" that went on at the various carriage works when modifications were carried out.

[shunny]

The worry for me is while Oxford Mk3 specs look great and I am excited to get my hands on these I am also a tad nervous after the less than perfect recent wagon releases. The liveries have been a big let down with the LNER and BR cattle vans finished in the same brown (the chassis is also wrong for the BR Version) and the NB grey way to light and the most glaring being the lack of brake cylinder on the cattle van. Oxford do some nice models and have made some big promises but there does appear to be a bit of gap between what is promised and what is delivered.

[James90012]

Exciting!

 

I've just started building up a GNER HST set, rather cheaply though so I hope I can sell the coaches on at cost-price once Oxford's plans are clearer. I expect that at launch, I will be interested in two Virgin West Coast locohauled sets.

[Nile_Griffith]

I guess a a couple of things need to come into consideration. Oxford Rail are a relatively "new" player to the model railroad game in terms of model locomotives and rolling stock. So what really becomes an appropriate period of time to cut them some slack so to speak, to get on top of issues such as colour match and omission of certain details. I must admit that I haven't heard any massive plaudits yet for their model railway products, however their enthusiastic and comparably speedy approach to bringing new models to market does seem to have won fans. It could be argued that Oxford Rail possibly benefit over the traditional manufacturers by not having the weight of legacy products and processes to encumber them, yet still being able to call on the leverage of an existing and well established scale model business.

 

I think what will be the litmus test is how they respond to praise and criticism of their products by fair minded modellers. I have banged on about this fact in other posts, but the few thousand members of this forum and a couple of other forums like it, are not the entire representation of interest of the buying market. So it is unfair to assume that the total number of consumers for Oxfords products think and appraise their purchases in the same way that the average forum member does.

 

I for one am all for any new entrant to the marketplace, especially when they show an enthusiasm to work towards achieving the best possible product within the commercial parameters available. Personally I think the Mk3's could be a bit make or break for them, but I have high hopes.

[JSpencer]

In fairness, the model rail world market is different to the diecast market. I have some/many of Oxford's military aircraft series (1/72nd) and military vehicle series (1/76th).

 

I don't really have any gripes about the vehicles especially as they choose subjects not covered elsewhere (the number of other makes that have done German Tiger tanks to death is horrible and I'm glad Oxford avoided them and other German stuff that has been done to death).

However fine scale military modelers find these crude compared with the very best ready made fine scale models (that are not technically diecast anyway) but then they are not the same price either!

In general though, the military vehicles are very liked and received (I have dozens) and I think they got the balance right here.

 

Their aircraft are a bit of a different story. Ixomodels are about the same price but generally better executed (in fairness some world wide magazine help shift 1000s of the things). Oxford's standards I find similar to Corgi's but not at anywhere near Corgi's prices (how Hornby justify their price there is beyond me). Both makes still have screws often holding the lower fuselage to upper fuselage. Trumpeter Easymodel  are around the same price and visually better executed. These are all plastic and not die cast, which I actually prefer for aircraft because it is lighter.

However other makes like Skygaurdians are somewhere in between Oxford's and Corgi's prices and are better detailed, avoid screws, are still diecast. A sort of right balance and detail level, I feel most manufacturers of scale model aircraft should aim for. To top it all, the props don't turn on Oxford's (all other makes do). So for me, though cheap, the end result is too fragile for a toy yet hard to call a serious collectors item. But again they do choose subjects not seen elsewhere such as a Sea Hornet, Swordfish, Avro Anson etc.

 

For trains, they have done some silly errors on both steam locos. The Adams is as good as Hornby's in all respects except for the lack of daylight and the front number plate being too high (it should be possible to put both right). I run both makes on the layout together. Their wagons seem to use generic parts in the 9ft chassis below the deck (the cattle wagon is longer than a 4 plank but below buffer beam level, everything is the same design. The end result being a highly detailed model with the wrong details. We can probably live with that on a wagon. After all how many of us have wagons in liveries from other makes that they would never have carried? Likewise other makes have also taken short cuts here too (although maybe not the latest models).

 

Overall, when it comes to a review of Oxfordrail's products to date, as a teacher would say "A good start but could do better". However the Mk 3 will suffer the wrath of modern image modelers if this model is not up to their expectations. They are often quite vocal especially in magazines like Rail Express. Oxfordrail do not want to be in a situation whereby the older Hornby and Lima ones are superior in some aspect and likewise, people won't accept generic parts where the prototype did not have them either. The last thing they need is for people to great future announcements with statements like "so what short cuts are they planning this time?".

 

Take your time Oxford, no rush for Xmas, just get'em right and if that means late then so be it.

Edited September 12, 2016 by JSpencer

[Nile_Griffith]

 

For trains, they have done some silly errors on both steam locos. The Adams is as good as Hornby's in all respects except for the lack of daylight and the front number plate being too high (it should be possible to put both right). I run both makes on the layout together. Their wagons seem to use generic parts in the 9ft chassis below the deck (the cattle wagon is longer than a 4 plank but below buffer beam level, everything is the same design. The end result being a highly detailed model with the wrong details. We can probably live with that on a wagon. After all how many of us have wagons in liveries from other makes that they would never have carried? Likewise other makes have also taken short cuts here too (although maybe not the latest models).

 

Overall, when it comes to a review of Oxfordrail's products to date, as a teacher would say "A good start but could do better". However the Mk 3 will suffer the wrath of modern image modelers if this model is not up to their expectations. They are often quite vocal especially in magazines like Rail Express. Oxfordrail do not want to be in a situation whereby the older Hornby and Lima ones are superior in some aspect and likewise, people won't accept generic parts where the prototype did not have them either. The last thing they need is for people to great future announcements with statements like "so what short cuts are they planning this time?".

 

Take your time Oxford, no rush for Xmas, just get'em right and if that means late then so be it.

 

 

Although I wholly agree with all of your comments (I just copied the part most pertinent to what I'm about to write). I think Oxford Rail have either consciously or unconsciously picked up on what might prove to be a "Brand" selling point for them, should of course they manage to start to deliver on their various planned model releases. By and large the hobby, certainly in this neck of the woods. Does seem to be growing tired of the main manufacturers endless merry go round of promised but then un-promised releases. If Oxford can create for itself a reputation of providing consistently well detailed and affordable models on a par with Messrs Bachman and Hornby's best efforts and keep waiting times for new model derivatives short, reliable and predictable. Oxford Rail could build for themselves a very loyal customer base. I have friends who collect or model in different area's of interest and when I talk to them they always find it amusing that for the railway modeller waiting on new arrivals (pardon the pun) is so hit and miss.

 

How many of us are waiting on Bachman's Class 90? And by waiting I mean waiting on the the three announced liveries? How many more are waiting on yet to be announced liveries that at present seem ten times further away than the releases actually planned for. I know Dave in one of his threads about DJH's considered forays into producing a Class 86 or 87. Commented on the difficulty of developing and producing a model for sale when there is the risk or knowledge that a other manufacturer might be some or all the way down the road with the release of an identical model of the same class. Brand loyalty lies a bit thin on the ground in the model railway world, as it is difficult to stick with just one manufacturer for very obvious reasons. OK there is an upside to this mentality, mainly of picking on the best thats available from all. But how many of us wish that manufacturer 'B' would make a model of such and such, but know that won't happen because manufacturer "H" is still knocking out a mildly improved legacy model some twenty years old. If somebody like Oxford Rail could develop a level of brand loyalty then there is the potential for there to be a modicum of commercial sense in taking on the production of other currently produced models, because they foresee that there will be a percentage of their own customer base who will be happy and willing to buy a new model because it's made by them. Because as customers they will be confident that it will be released when it's said and made to the levels described and all in a much shorter run up time than we see from the existing players.

 

Just thoughts to mull on.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The online constituency is not representative of the whole RTR OO model railway market for sure. But I'd bet that it is fairly representative of those fully prepared to buy OO RTR from other than Hornby, simply on its merits. (There are still plenty of customers out there who want it in a red box, and when the prototype they have always wanted comes in a blue non-red box it is a grudge purchase.)

 

Oxford need the open minded purchasers onside, to win enough of a share of the market. I'd rate performance at 'fair start, need to quickly improve' with some evidence that they have made progress. The LNER open is the best thing they have done, no worse than the decade and a half gone past introduction of the Bachmann 16T with occasional incorrect brake fit I would suggest. That was the vehicle that really piqued my interest in Bachmann. Only the most numerous and bog standard BR wagon in 'kit built' quality at a price encouraging purchase in 'train loads'. And a really common BR freight loco to pull them in the WD 2-8-0, and the model quite the best RTR OO loco ever seen up to that date. Now we're cooking with gas!

 

The mk3s are going to be the serious test for Oxford. They cannot be made really cheap to get sales that way. But they can be made a heap better than the existing very limp offering and offered in complete train packs. So there is opportunity. To add to my 'historical series of express trains of the ECML' I'd like nothing more than current standard !C125 and 225 sets. (Why Bachmann didn't opt for one of these instead of the Blue Bogcart remaineth a mystery, ISTM that either would have been a superior investment.) So, I am waiting to see if Oxford are serious about this; 'cause if they are, then the power cars will be announced fairly soon... IMEUO, YMMV.

[Derekstuart]

I will be supporting these chaps with purchases partly because I want to see them develop, and they are showing all the right signals so far.

 

There will always be room for fanatics to criticise them- for example, the HST and LHCS were painted slightly differently in blue/grey era- it might not be practical to represent those different versions and if so, I bet somewhere someone will moan about it.

 

I wonder if we might be better not pre-empting what they might or might not get wrong before they've even released it and show them the support that we would like to receive if it was US putting our investment on the line.

[shunny]

I too want them to succeed and I cancelled my Hornby Virgin East Coast MK3's in order to Support Oxford's and again the spec and detail promised are impressive but they have to be careful to deliver on these. I agree that wagons are often bought and run by many as a close representation of the original and that they are new manufacturer but the tag line on the press releases does state "In pursuit of excellence" and this is a bold statement not quiet yet fulfilled.

I am really hoping we see the Mk3's as the first true example of this statement and as others have said if Oxford need a few extra months to perfect these then I for one feel the wait would be worth while.

[piranha230]

I have no brand loyalty, the company who produces the more accurate model gets my pounds.

[royaloak]

I am looking forward to the Buffets having roof vents, something Hor-by cant seem to manage and when I contacted them about it they couldnt care less.

Edited September 12, 2016 by royaloak

[wombatofludham]

I am looking forward to the Buffets having roof vents, something Hor-by cant seem to manage and when I contacted them about it they couldnt care less.

 

That's because they are not steam era coaches.  Can you imagine the howls of derision from the kettleistas if the 101 variations on the theme Pullman that they've issued had been missing a single roof vent?  Yet anyone having the temerity to want to model anything post 1969 has to put up with nonsense like missing roof vents on Mk3 buffets and a visible fictional solebar on the integrally constructed Mk2e.

 

 ​I'm hoping Oxford really pull the irons out of the fire with these new Mk3s and show Hornby that not everyone wanting decent RTR coaches is over 80 years of age. 

[Derekstuart]

Of course if they do a really good job on the MK3s people might start looking closely at the Hornby HST power cars- and from what I can see of them you really don't want to do that.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Derekstuart

[JSpencer]

I too want them to succeed and I cancelled my Hornby Virgin East Coast MK3's in order to Support Oxford's and again the spec and detail promised are impressive but they have to be careful to deliver on these. I agree that wagons are often bought and run by many as a close representation of the original and that they are new manufacturer but the tag line on the press releases does state "In pursuit of excellence" and this is a bold statement not quiet yet fulfilled.

I am really hoping we see the Mk3's as the first true example of this statement and as others have said if Oxford need a few extra months to perfect these then I for one feel the wait would be worth while.

On similar grounds, I brought 40th anniversary blue grey power car pack (I still have their original HST power car pack from when I was a kid in the 1970s with the same running numbers - so some nostalgia there), but avoided the blue/grey mk3 coaches that are supposed to go with them.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Of course if they do a really good job on the MK3s people might start looking closely at the Hornby HST power cars- and from what I can see of them you really don't want to do that.

 Even if the Hornby power car were perfect externally they would be flawed. Both should be powered, and a close coupling mech is de rigeur. It's an integrated train set, and a match in standard of power cars and the coaches is essential. That's why I expect OR to produce power cars too.

 

...There will always be room for fanatics to criticise them- for example, the HST and LHCS were painted slightly differently in blue/grey era- it might not be practical to represent those different versions and if so, I bet somewhere someone will moan about it.

 

I wonder if we might be better not pre-empting what they might or might not get wrong before they've even released it...

 It's for Oxford to perform the expectation management, and no one else. The best course would be to state exactly what the models represent on the basis of the best information available, and front up to the fact that not every single variation can be covered. Hopefully they will 'choose well' and tool up for those variations that were most common long term in traffic, so that as much of the potential market as possible gets fully accurate models: and if there is a popular livery that just won't go on one or more vehicles be direct about it and state that this is a compromise, no apology, just like it or leave it.

[Derekstuart]

No arguments with that. Though I suspect the commercial reality means that no one will release another HST power car (though as Rapido will have something very similar in the HST-P, they MIGHT be persuaded).

 

Without wishing to go off topic, can anyone put their finger on what is wrong with the nose of the Hornby HST? I don't mean the prominent mould lines either, not that they should be there on something of that price. There is something about the nose edge that doesn't seem right. Others have said similar but no one can quite place it. The old Lima model is lacking modern detail but has the right shape.

[Waverley West]

No arguments with that. Though I suspect the commercial reality means that no one will release another HST power car (though as Rapido will have something very similar in the HST-P, they MIGHT be persuaded).

 

Without wishing to go off topic, can anyone put their finger on what is wrong with the nose of the Hornby HST? I don't mean the prominent mould lines either, not that they should be there on something of that price. There is something about the nose edge that doesn't seem right. Others have said similar but no one can quite place it. The old Lima model is lacking modern detail but has the right shape.

 

My own view is that the nose of the new Hornby HST is slightly too pointed (i.e. the areas above and below the nose edge are raked back a little too much). Otherwise, I think it's a pretty good model though. I just wish that scanning of all prototypes was standard amongst model manufacturers. Then we could forget about these issues altogether (although people have still expressed concern over the Dapol 73 despite that having been scanned). I'm not sure why some manufacturers seem to do it on some occasions, but others don't bother.

 

Back on thread, if Oxford get the Mk 3s right, they can put me down for a fair few, several HST rakes for a start, plus a couple of ScotRail rakes, as well as a few sleepers. If they're not enough of an improvement over the Hornby version, then I'll just carry on improving my Hornby ones, which would be no hardship for me, but Oxford would lose out, which would be an opportunity lost for them and a shame. 

 

I'm really hoping Oxford take their time and get them right too.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Waverley West

[Nile_Griffith]

 Even if the Hornby power car were perfect externally they would be flawed. Both should be powered, and a close coupling mech is de rigeur. It's an integrated train set, and a match in standard of power cars and the coaches is essential. That's why I expect OR to produce power cars too.

 

 

 

In my conversation with Mr Oxford Diecast at the weekend he did mention about Loco's but certainly wasn't going to get drawn into a discussion on there plans but did confirm his awareness of DJH's situation with their class 86 and 87 considerations (my money is on Heljan re-tooling their 86 to be honest).

 

Going back to an earlier point I made. If Oxford Rail can generate some loyalty base with a range of standard setting MK3's then why shouldn't they produce their own Class 43 HST's to accompany them? Regardless of what you may feel about Hornby's current offering, they are still a very popular model and an important acquisition for any modern image modeller. You try buying a used Swallow livery Class 43 on eBay. There certainly does seem to be ongoing demand and Hornby seem to be unable to meet it.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

In my conversation with Mr Oxford Diecast at the weekend he did mention about Loco's but certainly wasn't going to get drawn into a discussion on their plans...

 And quite right too, he has his commercial position to protect.

 

But seen from this potential customer's position (and I will not be alone in thinking like this) if OR is going to make the cut as a significant RTR model supplier, then the matching HST power cars are pretty much a necessity. Joined up thinking in evidence and all that...

[60006]

...did confirm his awareness of DJH's situation with their class 86 and 87 considerations...

 

Little confused here. Wasn't it DJM (not DJH) who were proposing the 86/87 and didn't the project get canned due to other manufacturers already working on them?

[Nile_Griffith]

Little confused here. Wasn't it DJM (not DJH) who were proposing the 86/87 and didn't the project get canned due to other manufacturers already working on them?

 

 

Sorry you are quite correct (I have a client of my own called DJH). Must admit when I looked at it I though it was wrong...... Sincere apologies to DJM.

[JSpencer]

My own view is that the nose of the new Hornby HST is slightly too pointed (i.e. the areas above and below the nose edge are raked back a little too much). Otherwise, I think it's a pretty good model though. I just wish that scanning of all prototypes was standard amongst model manufacturers. Then we could forget about these issues altogether (although people have still expressed concern over the Dapol 73 despite that having been scanned). I'm not sure why some manufacturers seem to do it on some occasions, but others don't bother.

 

Back on thread, if Oxford get the Mk 3s right, they can put me down for a fair few, several HST rakes for a start, plus a couple of ScotRail rakes, as well as a few sleepers. If they're not enough of an improvement over the Hornby version, then I'll just carry on improving my Hornby ones, which would be no hardship for me, but Oxford would lose out, which would be an opportunity lost for them and a shame. 

 

I'm really hoping Oxford take their time and get them right too.

 

Most people's concerns on Dapol's 73 are with the paint work, which if scanned would have the computer pick the closest RAL or Pantene number that have nothing to do with BR colours. This is dead cert way of getting the paint colour wrong since while some of these standard colours may be close, they can still be some way off. The Human eye can pick out between 300,000 or 10 million colours (depending on the study), while these standards are limited to several thousand. Other systems exist RGB, CYMK and so on which might be more accurate but converting digital interpretation into paint dyes remains a black art.

 

3D scanning is of course accurate though somewhat furry. The resulting mesh needs a human to clean it up and convert into CAD shapes and this is where a model can start to loose some of its original form. An example is the Kernow D6XX, whereby the CAD person tidied up fan grills by aligning them along the centre. Neither prototype nor the scanned O gauge model was like that as they are off set. On complex shapes, despite scanned, the cad user might take short cuts and simplify it. Assuming you get the CADs right, that might not be the end. Expansion rates of materials and tools used in manufacture may need to be compensated too.

[Waverley West]

Most people's concerns on Dapol's 73 are with the paint work.

 

Absolutely, but I was actually referring to the discussion concerning the apparent depressions in the cab roof which don't seem to be visible on most (any?) of the prototypes.

 

But yes, I had never seen a 73 in BR Purple until I saw the Dapol version. The colours of the Oxford Mk 3s will be almost as important to me as the general shape and other details, having spent many hours respraying two rakes of Mk 3s with Hornby's bungled attempt at the InterCity livery. 

[newbryford]

Most people's concerns on Dapol's 73 are with the paint work, which if scanned would have the computer pick the closest RAL or Pantene number that have nothing to do with BR colours. This is dead cert way of getting the paint colour wrong since while some of these standard colours may be close, they can still be some way off. The Human eye can pick out between 300,000 or 10 million colours (depending on the study), while these standards are limited to several thousand. Other systems exist RGB, CYMK and so on which might be more accurate but converting digital interpretation into paint dyes remains a black art.

 

 

Paint colours don't always scale down.

When Rail Express were doing 60074 Teenage Spirit, the samples were painted in the same RAL shade of blue. It didn't look right and they ended up using a half-shade different.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Revolution Mike]

Scale colours are a nightmare! Particularly when you compare to the real thing or a photo where the variation in the light becomes so important in what you see...