PECO Announces Bullhead Track for OO

[bertiedog]

Could perhaps post the peco email address and everyone in this thread could contact them, persuading them to change a design (I don't know how likely that is/if its too late in the design stage)??

I think it would be better to wait till next week and phone, but not to panic, and maybe somebody on here knows the answer anyway.

Stephen

[bertiedog]

On New Modellers Forum ( and other rail on the net sites), is a report and poll on the Unifrog being used on the Bullhead type track and I am afraid a lot of praise for the move, but from mainly Insulated frog supporters.

 

This is very, very deeply worrying as my plans had been based on using the points, mainly to save time from making C&L points.

 

If Peco fit plastic sections into the blade rail at the bend, as with Unifrog already made for HOn3, and break up the tip of the frog, then I for one would not buy such track and points at all!

 

This may be a way around people who hate wiring up a points or do not understand points, but this is a retrograde step backwards to toy train set track, and never have been considered by Peco. It is so disappointing, if true, that I doubt I would continue will any Peco stuff, let alone the Points

.

 I can just about put up with checkrails in plastic as they are painted over, but to introduce plastic running surfaces sends these points back to the 1960's in design, what next, solve all the problems by having Wrenn closing frogs?

 

It saddens me that it seems the demand for Unifrog is from DCC owners who have no electrical or wiring knowledge, and simply fail to learn to use points properly. I know Peco have to cater to as wide a user base as possible, but Bullhead is not really a mass market product, and adding plastic to the blades is surely not on.

 

I would strongly add that the reports may well be wrong, I do not know, don't blame the messenger!!! but some firm information must be obtained from Peco after the holiday, unless your in a position to comment.

 

Stephen

[martin_wynne]

From another posting on RM,  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/121872-unifrog/

 is possible news of the frogs on the bullhead points being the Peco Unifrog type, where a large plastic filled break is put in the blade to insulate the frog, which is reduced to a tiny tip area that can be switched or not as the user feels like.

 

Hi Stephen,

 

This post claims to have actual facts:

 

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107569-peco-announces-bullhead-track-for-oo/page-86&do=findComment&comment=2565620

 

Peco seem to be gradually making the change to Unifrog on all their designs. It clearly makes economic sense not to have to duplicate everything with insulated and live versions.

 

Clearly the new bullhead turnouts will follow their current design thinking, and be based on the mass-market requirements/expectations.

 

If you want a more prototypical design without rail breaks, it might be better to wait for the DCC Concepts pointwork. I've had a little bet with myself that they will switch from stainless steel to nickel-silver (just a guess, I have no actual knowledge ).

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[gr.king]

 the insulted frogs will be dropped in favour of Unifrog,

 

Stephen

 

Whether or not those poor "insulted" frogs are dropped, I am dead against having ANY piece of plastic (bar any essential insulating wafer-thickness inserts) forming any part of the running surface, especially the knuckles of the wing rails which have to stand up to wear and tear! Even with best efforts to lay track absolutely flat and smooth, to keep track and wheels clean, and to fit maximum numbers of pick ups to locos, any piece of dead rail long enough to end up supporting so much as a single wheel's contact area threatens to spoil running, given half a chance.

 

And rather than just vent hot air about it on here, I've already sent in my two penn'orth on the matter to Peco.

Edited April 14, 2017 by gr.king

[bertiedog]

Hi Stephen,

 

This post claims to have actual facts:

 

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107569-peco-announces-bullhead-track-for-oo/page-86&do=findComment&comment=2565620

 

Peco seem to be gradually making the change to Unifrog on all their designs. It clearly makes economic sense not to have to duplicate everything with insulated and live versions.

 

Clearly the new bullhead turnouts will follow their current design thinking, and be based on the mass-market requirements/expectations.

 

If you want a more prototypical design without rail breaks, it might be better to wait for the DCC Concepts pointwork. I've had a little bet with myself that they will switch from stainless steel to nickel-silver (just a guess, I have no actual knowledge ).

 

regards,

 

Martin.

Then it is goodbye to Peco, the lot, track points and rail joiners, if toy train track is made calling itself Bullhead then Peco are finished with scale modellers. Points work without such complexities, the problem is not the points it is the user.

To step back to having a section of plastic running rail is plain and utter idiocy for scale track.

If this sounds strong about Peco, it is, but we must await information after the holidays to get a fuller picture and be fair to them in replying as to the real situation.

[bertiedog]

In reply to Martin about his quoted list of features in the bullhead point the main query was about solid blades, and now we are faced with "SOLID BLADES" with a "BREAK" in plastic, so who is telling porkies then? or perhaps lack of communication.

 

If this is true, then Peco are wasting their time selling to modellers.  I had looked forward to a scale track devoid of plastic and insulated sections and a nearer to scale appearance. but running rails in plastic? I think Mr Pritchard senior would not approved of the way this is developing, and I just hope the rumours are wrong, it is totally heartbreaking to think they could consider such a backward step.

Stephen

[Pacific231G]

Then it is goodbye to Peco, the lot, track points and rail joiners, if toy train track is made calling itself Bullhead then Peco are finished with scale modellers. Points work without such complexities, the problem is not the points it is the user.

To step back to having a section of plastic running rail is plain and utter idiocy for scale track.

If this sounds strong about Peco, it is, but we must await information after the holidays to get a fuller picture and be fair to them in replying as to the real situation.

I'm rather inclined to agree. I've used Peco track for years and since I model French H0 it's always suited me very well. Ironically, for the parts of the republic I'm interested in, so would their new BH range, at least for plain track, with a bit of cosmetic attention. I was planning to use Code 75 Streamline for my next layout which will have a main line theme but will either have to buy all the points I need fairly soon before they change to this or look for an alternative. 

 

What is depressing is that Peco may be responding to a market of "modellers" increasingly unprepared to learn even the basics of the craft (If I can wire up a layout with Electrofrog points then anyone can). Unfortunately all the other "finecale" ready made H0 track such as Tillig is not only less sturdy than Peco but it also tends to follow German PW design which is a bit different. 

Edited April 14, 2017 by Pacific231G

[martin_wynne]

To step back to having a section of plastic running rail is plain and utter idiocy for scale track.

 

??? Plastic running rail?

 

All trackwork (except clockwork and live steam) needs isolating gaps in the rail, including the prototype for track circuits.

 

No doubt Peco will insert a small plastic spacer to prevent the rail ends touching, but it is unlikely to be full height to the rail top.

 

Likewise between the metal nose of the Unifrog and the vee rails.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[bertiedog]

The rival DCC points seemed to have vanished in the mist at the moment, no recent news, maybe they knew that Peco were about to blunder, and are waiting to deliver the points after people have seen the Unifrog Bullhead Toy train points (if correct).

 Looks like hours of assembling C&L or home brewed points are coming again, not easy with arthritic hands these days, or back to the code 75 flatbottom, if it remains available. Might even abandon 00 and return to P4, but again a huge job my hands cannot manage that well.

Stephen

[BR(W)]

Hi Stephen,

 

This post claims to have actual facts:

 

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107569-peco-announces-bullhead-track-for-oo/page-86&do=findComment&comment=2565620

 

Peco seem to be gradually making the change to Unifrog on all their designs. It clearly makes economic sense not to have to duplicate everything with insulated and live versions.

 

Clearly the new bullhead turnouts will follow their current design thinking, and be based on the mass-market requirements/expectations.

 

If you want a more prototypical design without rail breaks, it might be better to wait for the DCC Concepts pointwork. I've had a little bet with myself that they will switch from stainless steel to nickel-silver (just a guess, I have no actual knowledge ).

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

I'm afraid I agree: there has been quite a lot of negative comment about the soldering of the stainless steel used by DCC Concepts, and no matter how ill-founded and unfair, reputational damage may already have been done. But one should bear in mind that one of the benefits of the stainless approach was claimed to be a significant reduction in the regularity of the need to clean the rail heads for reliable current collection, and I for one would suggest that a little extra care and effort at the installation stage (perhaps even improving one's soldering skills and equipment) could be hugely offset by sweeter, more reliable running for many years afterwards. A trade-off worth making, I feel, especially as I believe their track's appearance to be superior to Peco's.

 

Anyone agree, or am I deluding myself?

 

Cheers,

 

BR(W).

[bertiedog]

??? Plastic running rail?

 

All trackwork (except clockwork and live steam) needs isolating gaps in the rail, including the prototype for track circuits.

 

No doubt Peco will insert a small plastic spacer to prevent the rail ends touching, but it is unlikely to be full height to the rail top.

 

Likewise between the metal nose of the Unifrog and the vee rails.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

Have a look at the Unifrog H0n3 points, the plastic section is a bit more than a tiny joint, it is the whole bend in the switch rail and as big as the frog gap.

 

 

If that is a tiny gap then I must be blind! it is as big as the frog to stop shorts, as they leave all live in a Unifrog.

 

That is two un-paintable running rail parts in plastic, pure toy train design. I am not paying for a scale looking bullhead point with two ghastly plastic inserts. They cannot be shortened as the back of the wheel could touch the other blade which is always live. Peco's aim for them was to improve on a dead frog, which all live does, and there is the option of cutting or switching the tip area. BUT in Bullhead scale track?

 

Stephen

Edited April 14, 2017 by bertiedog

[martin_wynne]

If that is a tiny gap then I must be blind! it is as big as the frog to stop shorts, as they leave all live in a Unifrog.

 

I think that must be plastic flashing* over the rails. It certainly looks like it. I imagine that underneath it is more like the gaps in the vee rails. If they can do it there, why not for the wing rails? I suggest waiting and seeing the actual product.

 

*That FB rail is clearly insert-moulded. It is very likely the bullhead turnouts will have slide-in rails. Hence the higher cost for manual assembly.

 

Martin.

Edited April 14, 2017 by martin_wynne

[The Stationmaster]

I must say I find it a very strange step (apart from a production economy) to change from a live frog (Amercianism almost acceptable for once) to 'unifrog' design as all it appears to do is introduce a need for extra switches for section isolating purposes.  Presumably Peco are playing to the DCC market rather than than those of us who use more traditional forms of electrification and at the same time like the simplicity in wiring that comes with live'frogs'.  The appearance does seem a little odd too but that might just be me looking at a change from something I'm used to.

 

Oh and of course Peco also sell switches so instead of selling just one to select the polarity at the crossing they will now be able to sell two to independently isolate each dead end siding beyond a (facing) point.  So not just production economy but a way of selling more switches (me - cynical??? Perish the thought   )

[martin_wynne]

Oh and of course Peco also sell switches so instead of selling just one to select the polarity at the crossing they will now be able to sell two to independently isolate each dead end siding beyond a (facing) point.  So not just production economy but a way of selling more switches (me - cynical??? Perish the thought   )

 

Hi Mike,

 

Have you read the Peco instructions? If you remove the link between the stock rail and closure rail as suggested, it then works exactly the same as the existing insulfrog design, switching via blade contact.

 

In fact it is better than insulfrog, because you can remove the link only on the siding side, preserving better continuity along the main road.

 

But why folks don't want live crossings is beyond me. Peco provide a wire to the crossing and sell switches, how difficult can it be?

 

regards,

 

Martin.

Edited April 14, 2017 by martin_wynne

[bertiedog]

It cannot be flash, the length corresponds to protecting the wheel shorting out on the other rail, all ways live in opposition in this design. The same moulding is visible in all the Peco shots of the other unifrog types, it is part of the design.

 

There is no need to insulate the switch blades from the frog, it is switched by the action of the point or auxiliary switches.

 

It was made clear earlier that the blades were to be solid, confirmed by Peco at a couple of shows, at which samples were shown. Now it seems to mean solid in "no joint hinge", but not solid adding about 4mm or so of plastic bend.

 

This could all be a storm in a BR teacup, I hope so dearly, but it looks like problems ahead at the moment.

[martin_wynne]

It cannot be flash, the length corresponds to protecting the wheel shorting out on the other rail, all ways live in opposition in this design. The same moulding is visible in all the Peco shots of the other unifrog types, it is part of the design.

 

As I said, those are insert-moulded. I strongly suspect the bullhead turnouts won't be. The mould tool would need to be fiendishly complicated to do that.

 

I suggest waiting and seeing.

 

Martin.

[bertiedog]

Hi Mike,

 

Have you read the Peco instructions? If you remove the link between the stock rail and closure rail as suggested, it then works exactly the same as the existing insulfrog design, switching via blade contact.

 

In fact it is better than insulfrog, because you can remove the link only on the siding side, preserving better continuity along the main road.

 

But why folks don't want live crossings is beyond me. Peco provide a wire to the crossing and sell switches, how difficult can it be?

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 By the way I am not complaining about the ingenuity of the Unifrog in replacing the insular dead frog, anything would be an improvement, it is purely the dreadful thought that a scale point will have these ghastly plastic inserts that will stand out like a sore thumb.

Perhaps, yet again, a post on how to wire up points would be appropriate, as it is so simple, but users accidentally make it so complex.

 

I recently saw a gentleman at a show going around Alexandra Palace asking if the track and points were fully DCC compatible, and when he got a positive reply that explained it did not really matter, went off mumbling about getting proper DCC points and track.

 

Points wiring is simple, you just need a tiny bit of electrical knowledge to do it, and but seems schools in the UK seem to bypass it these days.

Stephen

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Ah, Unifroggate.  

 

I thought it was all suspiciously sunshine and roses in here for a track thread.  

[bertiedog]

I think it is Pecogate, rather than Unifroggate, now...... where is the C&L list for an order for normal scale bullhead points?

[martin_wynne]

Hi Stephen,

 

Here you go. Wing rails insert-moulded, closure rails slide-in.

 

A long dead section for insulfrog, but just fine for a live crossing. Something between the two should be possible.

 

 

Martin.

[The Stationmaster]

Hi Stephen,

 

Here you go. Wing rails insert-moulded, closure rails slide-in.

 

A long dead section for insulfrog, but just fine for a live crossing. Something between the two should be possible.

 

peco_gaps.jpg

 

Martin.

 

Provided the crossing is relatively straightforward to connect then - as you say - it's more or less straightforward 'live frog' wiring and a couple of links to cut.

 

Like you I simply cannot understand why people should use insulfrogs - to me they just make things more complicated!

[Savoyard]

I took this photo of the prototype Bullhead point on display at Model Rail Scotland, I thought it was very impressive, including single piece blades.

 

[bertiedog]

Hi Stephen,

 

Here you go. Wing rails insert-moulded, closure rails slide-in.

 

A long dead section for insulfrog, but just fine for a live crossing. Something between the two should be possible.

 

peco_gaps.jpg

 

Martin.

 I was about to post the same solution, move the gap away the same amount as the plastic, but on the evidence Peco have not done it on the other unifrog points. Tuesday will be an interesting day to find out from Peco.

 

 

Stephen

[bertiedog]

On http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/121872-unifrog/

There is a picture of the Peco Point and it merely has the split joint at the bend, not the large plastic section, so issue solved. it looks as if the whole frog is live as usual, rather than separating up the tip, so still requiring plastic fishplates, unless changes have since been made.

Stephen

[Retro_man]

I took this photo of the prototype Bullhead point on display at Model Rail Scotland, I thought it was very impressive, including single piece blades.

 

New Peco Bullhead Point.jpg

 

Very nice!