PECO Announces Bullhead Track for OO

[Budgie]

Like you I simply cannot understand why people should use insulfrogs - to me they just make things more complicated!

I use insulfrogs on my garden layout, because that way I don't need to worry about switches at all.

[AndyID]

Now if we'd all just stayed with clockwork none of this would be necessary.

[Strathwood]

Watt do you mea

 

 By the way I am not complaining about the ingenuity of the Unifrog in replacing the insular dead frog, anything would be an improvement, it is purely the dreadful thought that a scale point will have these ghastly plastic inserts that will stand out like a sore thumb.

Perhaps, yet again, a post on how to wire up points would be appropriate, as it is so simple, but users accidentally make it so complex.

 

I recently saw a gentleman at a show going around Alexandra Palace asking if the track and points were fully DCC compatible, and when he got a positive reply that explained it did not really matter, went off mumbling about getting proper DCC points and track.

 

Points wiring is simple, you just need a tiny bit of electrical knowledge to do it, and but seems schools in the UK seem to bypass it these days.

Stephen

Watt could you possibly mean?

[andytrains]

My old sportsmaster Mr Ohms would be making us do Volting rather than Cross country.

[John ks]

 I was about to post the same solution, move the gap away the same amount as the plastic, but on the evidence Peco have not done it on the other unifrog points. Tuesday will be an interesting day to find out from Peco.

 

unifrog 2.jpg

 

Stephen

 

I like what you did with the frog

A couple of posts have described this as a picture of HOn3 unifrog

 

It is a PECO HO code 83 double slip

 

John

[bertiedog]

A cousin of mine has small children in school, and they were explaining they were being taught about static electricity, rubbing balloons to make a charge etc., and the conversation amongst the elders turned to Wimshurst Machines and Van der Graff static generators... to which a small person chipped in, we have got one of those, but it is banned from use, as the safety regulations need a trained teacher to use it.....They allow balloons I said jokingly, and he said yes, with a face mask.......

 

Obviously the days of testing batteries with the tongue have long gone, our school Wimshurst was worn out with use, and at the same age, 8, we were building a Van De Graff powered by a vacuum cleaner motor, which gave a firework display from both the static generated and the dodgy mains wiring fitted by the master. "Stand clear boys!" was the only helpful advice from the science master, as he un-helpfully used a water extinguisher on an electrical fire. We had it all rewired and running again next day.

 

I regret to report that a faction in the class tried putting the school cat on the top of the generator, with spectacular results....the cat was not hurt, just very, very, surprised. Any loose fur was ejected from it's coat standing on end. I have never seen a cat depart at such speed.....

At least at Science fair days we had the Van de Graff on display with home made motors, meters, solenoids, relays, all made from scraps at home......apparently the kids get taught about power generation next term, but I doubt they will build a wind turbine, which we did in the 50's

 

Stephen

[martin_wynne]

At least at Science fair days we had the Van de Graff on display with home made motors, meters, solenoids, relays, all made from scraps at home......apparently the kids get taught about power generation next term, but I doubt they will build a wind turbine, which we did in the 50's

 

Hi Stephen,

 

Your post brought back memories. The chemistry lessons were even more alarming! And in biology I remember dissecting a rat. The biology lab was a useful source of scalpel blades for modelling.

 

As a reminder of those days, here is the Preface to a small booklet on home electrical projects:

 

 

Martin.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

They allow balloons I said jokingly, and he said yes, with a face mask.......

 

 

Ah, that will be to prevent a recurrence of the Great Balloon Rubbing Massacre of 1973.  Dangerous things, balloons.

[YK 50A]

I was at the York Show today and asked at the Peco stand.  I suspect I wasn't the first...  For anyone interested:

• The check rails will span 4 sleepers (on the large radius point).
• The point will be uni-frog but it will look like a live frog and there will be a small shimmy (is that the correct spelling?) in the frog.
• They are aware of the discussions on various forums.
• There are no plans for a flat bottom rail equivalent.

I hope that's of use.

 

Alun

[bertiedog]

Well a frog is a frog, (don't go down the wrong description route, we all know what a point frog is), and does not contain a "shimmy"or what I suspect they mean is a plastic insulator and a separate frog tip as on the other unifrog designs, more splits, more plastic again. It all boils down to them trying to re invent the wheel, as solid rails are more desirable. and work better for pickup of power.

 

What I cannot see is how the tip works with so called all live. If there is a tip unit, then this can be switched as usual, or left unconnected to duplicate dead frog operation, and suit all live DCC operation.

 

But the picture clearly shows no separate tip area to switch or leave unconnected, so how in unifrog operation going to be provided for.?

The left and right hand rails meet at the tip, are they attempting to separate the tip with an insulator down the centre of the frog? This would lead directly to transient shorts fro wheels so is unlikely.

 

So we are still in the dark as the the exact nature of the frog, apart from existing examples, which show excess plastic insulation and a tiny metal toe point, which, I am suspicious is a die cast plated insert, not nickel silver, but I may be totally wrong.

 

Clearly the design will work, but with Bullhead scaler track, appearance is everything, we take for granted that Peco get the operation right, but will it be at the cost of niggling little compromises in appearance? They got the track right, lets all hope the points are as good.

[RANGERS]

Now if we'd all just stayed with clockwork none of this would be necessary.

Now if we all built pointless layouts...

[martin_wynne]

What I cannot see is how the tip works with so called all live.

 

Hi Stephen,

 

I don't think you should take that photo as anything other than a hand-built mock-up, perhaps on a 3D-printed base. The production version may be very different.

 

We have been told that they have recently started work on the tooling (which seems surprisingly late if they are aiming for a release in the "Summer"), so presumably in the months since that mock-up was shown at the Warley show they have done a lot of further design work.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[bertiedog]

A picture may hopefully help covering the issue with the design

 

The top one is the unifrog, where the green is the metal tip, connected with a removable wire to the outgoing rails

This creates a frog that is live and must be switched as with electrofrog.

 

By removing the link it leaves the metal tip dead and equates to a dead frog point.

 

In both designs the wing rails must be isolated and dead to prevent passing shorts from wheels.

 

This is different to a full live frog, where usually the whole frog, the lot is insulated by breaks in the switch rail and plastic fishplates. Other designs with solid blades exist where the whole blades are live to the switched frog. This last one is best practice, and used in P4.

 

The Unifrog seems a good idea till the extra plastic creeps in, and how the tip is made and what material,

 

The published photo of the bullhead does not show the green tip, so how is it a Unifrog? It has the breaks to insulate the wing rails, bur nothing else.

[martin_wynne]

The published photo of the bullhead does not show the green tip, so how is it a Unifrog? It has the breaks to insulate the wing rails, bur nothing else.

 

Stephen, see my previous post.

 

Martin.

[YK 50A]

The published photo of the bullhead does not show the green tip, so how is it a Unifrog? It has the breaks to insulate the wing rails, bur nothing else.

 

The Bullhead point that has been doing the rounds at the shows is a mock up.  It doesn't show the check rails spanning 4 sleepers either.

 

I did mean to ask about the arrangement of the blades too, but I was trying to keep up with my son, who is normal.

 

Alun

[bertiedog]

I was about to repost the image of the sample, but no point if it is just a mock up. If as I suspect the tip is designed in as per unifrog, then I will not use them, to much plastic, and the potential that Peco might go down the plated die cast tip route, as making the tiny part in Nickel silver may be difficult and costly.

 

I may be wrong, we have to wait, but as others point out Peco do take notice and may clarify the design details, although with a rival off stage they may be very careful in not giving details.

 

If the DCC point is full metal live frog, then the choice is obvious.

 

Sorry to have gone round the houses on this but the design will be with the modellers for many years and compromises now may cost Peco dear in years to come. The big leap to scale track becomes the small leap to a track for set track users.

 

Don't get me wrong, the track is wonderful, and I supported Peco for as long as they have been in business so don't attack me as getting at them in some general way.

Edited April 15, 2017 by bertiedog

[John ks]

​From Bertiedog's post  "The Unifrog seems a good idea till the extra plastic creeps in, and how the tip is made and what material,"

 

This image is a HO Peco Code 83 Double Slip & is probably irrelevant to the bullhead points.

It looks to me like the frog was made in one piece (from 2 pieces of rail) then a cut was made to separate the tip from the rest of the frog

 

 

John

 

 

[RANGERS]

I had a good look at the prototype on the Peco stand yesterday and the tiny gap in the crossing was barely visible, certainly passed the three foot rule and the detail of the stretcher bar was well beyond anything I'd manage to replicate by hand, so on balance I think these will do the job admirably. Just need to consider the FP lock now.

 

Expected cost is £30-£35, which given the cost of components to hand build, seems favourable and the best bit is they should be available later this summer/ autumn.

[bertiedog]

Looks like a wait and see, but the devil is in the details, and I cannot see from that photo how each part is powered or left dead, are the wing rails live? ....if not, in the shot the "gap" becomes very large, as bad as an insulated frog. The bend in the switch blade and the start of the wing usually supply uninterrupted power on a live frog lets call this 100%

The break in the switch blade seems to leave the bend dead, and also the wing rail, so the result must be less than 100% pickup, as the wheel crosses the gap there is an unneeded break.

Maybe Peco are hoping it will not matter, and are relying partly on DCC stay alive to cope.

If the wing rails are live, how are they switched? Peco say unifrog work straight from the box without switching, or does that only apply to using it as a dead frog type.

 

The tip area could well be sawn off in production leaving rail used to make the tip.

 

I am in two minds whether to bore everybody with this or leave it, but I am sure Martin and other experts on point design see the issues involved. It will not affect a 9F, but even if the unifrog only puts a tiny break in it will affect an 040 loco, however transiently.

 

The bottom line is it is all totally unneeded, live frogs work 100% so why introduce complexity to cater to those who cannot not learn to wire points,(nothing personal), people are not all electricians or engineers. If Peco go this route then DCC points may have won before even being on the market. But then Peco are mass market so I suppose it's best back to C&L kits for more advanced users. It's such a pity that the track is near perfect , but the points are just not 100% live and all metal, heartbreaking really......

Edited April 16, 2017 by bertiedog

[gr.king]

Given that it now appears, if supposition is correct, that all of the non-running rails will be separate from the running rails, would it not at least be worth considering the potential advantages of having those rails in a material that will not show up bright after track cleaning, in the same way that nickel silver does? Phosphor bronze at least looks browner than nickel silver, even after cleaning. And the purists can now all cough, splutter and foam at the mouth as I suggest that moulded brown plastic non-running rails would always appear correctly dull / dirty / rusty, even after track cleaning. They are never bright on the real thing.....

[bertiedog]

The non running rails should be painted rust colour, but the issue is plastic (or dead metal) that the loco is expected to run over. The current Peco code 75 have plastic check rails, which once painted are OK, and wing rails away from the contact area at the bend should be painted as well, again they could be plastic from just beyond the bend to the end of the wing. But this is a matter of choice and appearance, which the unifrog is not, it is a serious alteration in operation.

[martin_wynne]

The non running rails should be painted rust colour, but the issue is plastic (or dead metal) that the loco is expected to run over.

 

There is a great advantage in having metal check rails live and connected to the adjacent running rail. If wheel backs rub against the check rail, their rotation can cause them to lift momentarily from the running rail, losing electrical pickup if the check rail is not live.

 

I appreciate that the existing Peco check rails are plastic, and many hand-builders using functional plastic chairs do not connect the check rails, but it is well worth doing for reliable operation.

 

Martin.

[martin_wynne]

If the wing rails are live, how are they switched? Peco say unifrog work straight from the box without switching, or does that only apply to using it as a dead frog type..

 

My understanding is that the wing rails are connected to the vee nose. So that when used as insulfrog (with the vee nose left dead) the wing rails will also be dead.

 

When used as a live crossing (with the vee nose connected to a polarity switch via the wire supplied) the wing rails will also be live.

 

However, given that all anyone has seen is a non-functional mock-up, all we can do is wait and see. Or ask Peco directly for a copy of their instruction sheet if it is now available.

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

I had a good look at the prototype on the Peco stand yesterday and the tiny gap in the crossing was barely visible, certainly passed the three foot rule and the detail of the stretcher bar was well beyond anything I'd manage to replicate by hand, so on balance I think these will do the job admirably. Just need to consider the FP lock now.

 

Expected cost is £30-£35, which given the cost of components to hand build, seems favourable and the best bit is they should be available later this summer/ autumn.

 

 

Rangers

 

For £30 to £35 for a kit yes, but you could build 2 turnouts using C&L parts providing you fabricated the rails yourself for that cost.  Not trying to hijack the thread as I know most who are interested in RTR turnouts have little interest in building turnouts, but some may be considering both options

[bertiedog]

Thanks for the inputs, those points are tempting as rtr 00 points though, easy to lay, and should be reliable.

But I have recovered the use of my left arm, from arthritis, yes it is related to the use of 00, it was all I could manage with comfort one handed, and perhaps the best course may be to go back to P4 for the whole industrial layout planned.

 

Trouble is a lot of RTR 00 is darn good now, and conversion more complex on current designs. Also minimum radius is a problem in P4 although much of it self imposed on a layout with mainly 040 and 060 locos, after all it is feasible to go as tight as 00 is able too go. It's a lot of conversion to do though and the Peco bullhead track would go unused, so the swingometer returns in favour 00. Have to be self assembly using C&L for points away from the main part where full length points are needed and come under closer scrutiny.

 

Stephen