Castle Aching

[St Enodoc]

30 minutes ago, wagonman said:

Stanford's value was as a teacher rather than a composer

I have to disagree. Many of his settings for Evensong are sublime in my view.

[St Enodoc]

20 minutes ago, Malcolm 0-6-0 said:

To be fair Elgar personally lamented the usage to which the Pomp & Circumstance works were put.

No 4, if you ignore the words, seems way ahead of No1 musically. I have to own up to never knowingly having heard Nos 2 and 3.

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

12 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

No 4, if you ignore the words, seems way ahead of No1 musically. I have to own up to never knowingly having heard Nos 2 and 3.

 

Well the lyrics which is the bit we all listen to were composed long before WW1 exploded the myth. But as such they reflected that height of Empire feeling that pervaded the first years of the 20th century. I am reminded in a way of the inner meaning of Kipling's poem -

 

  

The meaning is darker and far less sanguine than the words are sometimes put to. 

 

As a child this was always played at ANZAC day ceremonies and the meaning to me was always clear, the words are a counter to the music.

 

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by Malcolm 0-6-0

[St Enodoc]

7 minutes ago, Malcolm 0-6-0 said:

 

Well the lyrics which is the bit we all listen to were composed long before WW1 exploded the myth. But as such they reflected that height of Empire feeling that pervaded the first years of the 20th century. I am reminded in a way of the inner meaning of Kipling's poem -

 

  

The meaning is darker and far less sanguine than the words are sometimes put to. 

 

As a child this was always played at ANZAC day ceremonies and the meaning to me was always clear, the words are a counter to the music.

 

 

Back in England we used to sing "O Valiant Hearts" on Remembrance Sunday until certain people in the parish who thought they knew best decided that it was too politically incorrect.

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

3 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Back in England we used to sing "O Valiant Hearts" on Remembrance Sunday until certain people in the parish who thought they knew best decided that it was too politically incorrect.

 

Yes a lot has changed hasn't it.  But then there is always the better uses to which our talents can be put -

 

Frank Bridge Spring Song for Violin and Piano. It has a gentle haunting quality.

 

 

[Buhar]

As Butterworth is a family name and I believe it originates from Rochdale a Wiki-dip was required. George Butterworth's family, which contains some notable individuals, were well travelled, Bristol, Coventry, London, York but tracking back finds one in Rossendale, only a few miles from Rochdale.  That'll do.

 

George's father was General Manager of the North Eastern and then the Chairman of the Railway Executive during WW1.  On that basis I think he can claim a special place in the CA canon.

 

Alan 

[wagonman]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You're not saying you preferred hideous Howells, I hope?

 

That's a 'No' by the way...

[wagonman]

4 hours ago, Malcolm 0-6-0 said:

 

Well the lyrics which is the bit we all listen to were composed long before WW1 exploded the myth. But as such they reflected that height of Empire feeling that pervaded the first years of the 20th century. I am reminded in a way of the inner meaning of Kipling's poem -

 

  

The meaning is darker and far less sanguine than the words are sometimes put to. 

 

As a child this was always played at ANZAC day ceremonies and the meaning to me was always clear, the words are a counter to the music.

 

 

 

Kipling became far less gung-ho after his son was killed at Loos. His post war poem Common Form includes the couplet "If any question why we died, / Tell them, because our fathers lied."

 

 

 

[brianusa]

Most music listed came from the height of Empire long before political correctness.  'Valiant Heart" maybe a good example although I fail to see the connection.  Of all the British composers other than those mentioned, Frederick Delius deserves consideration even his Mississippi Suite.  May not be English but in the same style as all his idyllic compositions.  

     Brian.

[robmcg]

12 hours ago, wagonman said:

 

 

Bijou snagette: the 'Saint' and 'Court' series, built with the drop frames as shown, had screw reverse rather than the lever reverse on your image. That applied to the early builds only though I was retained if they were rebuilt with drop frames, I think. Looks lovely otherwise!

 

Oh dear, and I spent a few minutes changing it from screw reverser to lever-style, a dearth of photos accessible to me on bedrest even though I have plenty of GWR reference books.

 

Here is 2916 with correct reversing gear?  Clearly I have much to learn about these seminal locomotives!

 

 

 

 

Cheers

Edited April 18, 2020 by robmcg

[Andy Hayter]

Everywhere there are traps waiting to catch us out Rob.  

Just as many, if not more in 3Das in your 2D portrayals.  

[drmditch]

Re: Stanford

Beata Quorum Via

Edited April 18, 2020 by drmditch

[figworthy]

15 hours ago, Edwardian said:

I first heard the Du Pre recording as a child, lying on the backseat of our car, as we drove through the Cotswolds, with me looking up at the dark, leafless trees against the evening sky.  A moment that has always stayed with me.  It is the performance, and I cherish that Barbirolli album for both that recording of the 'cello concerto and Janet Baker's Sea Pictures. 

 

For Vaughn Williams, I am haunted by the Fantasia.  First performed in 1910 at Gloucester Cathedral at the Three Choirs Festival, it must have blown the audience's minds, as they would not have heard anything like it.  

 

 

I remember listening to Desert Island Discs some time back in the mid 90s, and the guest of the week (a female author whose name I forget) picked the Elgar Cello Concerto.  She explained that she had been working somewhere, and heard it being played, upon investigating, it was Du Pre rehearsing.  I once read that Mstislav Rostropovich refused to play it because he didn't think he could better that performance.

 

The Tallis Fantasia.  Invariably put the hairs up on the back of my neck.  If you get the chance to hear in Gloucester Cathedral, then take it, it sounds so much better.  When it was premièred (it was a commission for the event), it was a filler on the programme, the main event (so to speak) was supposed to be the Dream of Gerontious.  The music critic from the Times recognised it as being some special, and is said to have described it as so very new and so very old.  Ivor Gurney and Herbert Howells (also locals) were in the audience, and supposedly spent the entire night walking the streets of Gloucester discussing it.  Do that write tunes like that any more ?

 

Adrian

[robmcg]

36 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

Everywhere there are traps waiting to catch us out Rob.  

Just as many, if not more in 3Das in your 2D portrayals.  

 

Indeed but in my world I can rub things out and paint new bits rather more easily!

[figworthy]

2 hours ago, brianusa said:

Most music listed came from the height of Empire long before political correctness.  'Valiant Heart" maybe a good example although I fail to see the connection.  Of all the British composers other than those mentioned, Frederick Delius deserves consideration even his Mississippi Suite.  May not be English but in the same style as all his idyllic compositions.  

     Brian.

 

Delius was born in Yorkshire, although his parents were German.

 

Adrian

[Schooner]

20 hours ago, sem34090 said:

I'm trying to expand my '1900s British' playlist

 

With so much glorious music already suggested (give VW's A London Symphony, a direct result of Butterworth's encouragement, a listen whilst you're in the neighbourhood), I thought I might go a little left field with something that sounds bloody awful and that's only loosely attached to your 1900 criterion

 

Peter Bellamy set Kipling poems in two collections, Mr Bellamy, Mr Kipling and the Tradition and Barrack Room Ballads. Perhaps a song for these times from the former:

 

To excuse that racket and give the topic a push Aching-ward, Bellamy's formative years were spent in North Norfolk, the backdrop of his first solo album Mainly Norfolk. That album leant heavily on the repertoire of Harry Cox, farm hand and one of the most important singers in the English folk tradition,  without whom much material would never have been recorded. If you ever need to know what could be heard in the fields and lanes of Castle Aching, he's your man!

 

EDIT: ...of course, no guarentee you could understand a word... [link to Spotify]

 

EDIT: I couldn't think of a way to link this in, but a thought on all the previous suggestions:

High periods for the arts are sometimes suggested to have been a direct result o f hardship. Why is it then that this quintessential period of British music comes when Britain was at her height? Why is so much of it tinged with loss of one kind or another?

Edited April 18, 2020 by Schooner

[brianusa]

1 hour ago, figworthy said:

Delius was born in Yorkshire, although his parents were German.

 

Thanks Adrian for confirming FDs nationality as English.  Most think he was foreign born due to his Surname.  Gorgeous music!

     Brian.

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

5 hours ago, brianusa said:

Most music listed came from the height of Empire long before political correctness.  'Valiant Heart" maybe a good example although I fail to see the connection.  Of all the British composers other than those mentioned, Frederick Delius deserves consideration even his Mississippi Suite.  May not be English but in the same style as all his idyllic compositions.  

     Brian.

 

I don't think it is a matter of political correctness that changes the view, it is instead the mass recognition of the reality of WW1. From 1815 until 1914 in Europe it had been a time of comparative peace and rising prosperity. Yes there had been various wars Crimea, those associated with the expansion of the Prussian state into modern Germany, Franco-Prussian etc. but these were small and didn't have direct impacts upon all the civilian populations of the states involved. They were also fought along the lines of what had been the traditional warfare forms i.e. set piece battles of short duration, clearly defined victors and losers and after the battles political moves to quick settlements of disputes. 

 

Coupled with that, the rise of empires and the flow on economic prosperity was impacting beneficially on the people and governments were also moving towards more democratic liberalism in how they treated the rising prosperity of the working classes. Also the main European powers were shifting their military contention away from Europe to their competing colonial outposts. A situation that perfectly fitted the small size of standing armies so there was no need for mass civilian involvement. So briefly put the civilian populations became insulated from the reality of war in a way that had been unknown a century before. Like some modern countries civilians began to see nationalistic hyperbole and flag waving as the real expression of patriotism and involvement instead of properly recognising its reality as a sham. They saw the glitter but not the blood sacrifice.

 

WW1 which starts because of an idiotic assassination of an obscure Austrian archduke who unloved at all levels in his own country just happened to be the heir to the Austrian throne. That he was killed by a deluded Serbian nationalist in an unnecessary act because Serbia was not under any threat to its independence just adds a further degree of ludicrousness to what follows. 

 

What then follows was a 4 year bloodbath in which all the traditional rules and customs of warfare were thrown away to be replaced by endless slaughter and injury along a few hundred square kilometres of Belgium and northern France. A static killing ground whose boundaries shifted little in that period. As the bodies and the injured flowed home the civilian population was awakened to the horror in the most direct way. And this nightmare reawakening becomes not just a European response but a worldwide response. As a personal aside my paternal grandmother lost 3 sons by her first marriage to the slaughter on the Western Front. While those politicians and opinion makers whose glib patriotic fervour had created this horror are forced to awaken to the sham of flag waving patriotism and nationalism because even they, normally untouched by personal bereavement, have the horror paraded before them on a daily basis. Just as a century later when in certain countries flag waving and nationalistic hyperbole have replaced reality and the body count from war continues to rise. 

 

So it is not political correctness that creates the shift it is the sudden awareness of reality that does.  

 

                 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Malcolm 0-6-0

[wagonman]

1 hour ago, brianusa said:

 

Thanks Adrian for confirming FDs nationality as English.  Most think he was foreign born due to his Surname.  Gorgeous music!

     Brian.

 

FD was born in Bradford – which is pretty foreign to a Londoner like me. He spend his later life in France though he did employ another Yorkshireman, Eric Fenby, as his amanuensis.

 

His music is often described as English Pastoral.

Edited April 19, 2020 by wagonman

[St Enodoc]

5 hours ago, brianusa said:

Most music listed came from the height of Empire long before political correctness.  'Valiant Heart" maybe a good example although I fail to see the connection.  Of all the British composers other than those mentioned, Frederick Delius deserves consideration even his Mississippi Suite.  May not be English but in the same style as all his idyllic compositions.  

     Brian.

Brian, the problem with O Valiant Hearts was that the people I referred to decided that it glorified war rather than honouring those who died. Personally I can't see it that way:

 

"O valiant hearts who to your glory came
Through dust of conflict and through battle flame;
Tranquil you lie, your knightly virtue proved,
Your memory hallowed in the land you loved.

Proudly you gathered, rank on rank, to war
As who had heard God’s message from afar;
All you had hoped for, all you had, you gave,
To save mankind—yourselves you scorned to save.

Splendid you passed, the great surrender made;
Into the light that nevermore shall fade;
Deep your contentment in that blest abode,
Who wait the last clear trumpet call of God.

Long years ago, as earth lay dark and still,
Rose a loud cry upon a lonely hill,
While in the frailty of our human clay,
Christ, our Redeemer, passed the self same way.

Still stands His Cross from that dread hour to this,
Like some bright star above the dark abyss;
Still, through the veil, the Victor’s pitying eyes
Look down to bless our lesser Calvaries.

These were His servants, in His steps they trod,
Following through death the martyred Son of God:
Victor, He rose; victorious too shall rise
They who have drunk His cup of sacrifice.

O risen Lord, O Shepherd of our dead,
Whose cross has bought them and Whose staff has led,
In glorious hope their proud and sorrowing land
Commits her children to Thy gracious hand."

[Harlequin]

Here’s another piece for you, @sem34090. Peter Warlock’s Capriol Suite (1926). Post-grouping - but it’s in the tradition...

 

This is quite a spirited rendition:

 

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Harlequin

[Hroth]

7 hours ago, Malcolm 0-6-0 said:

WW1 which starts because of an idiotic assassination of an obscure Austrian archduke who unloved at all levels in his own country just happened to be the heir to the Austrian throne. That he was killed by a deluded Serbian nationalist in an unnecessary act because Serbia was not under any threat to its independence just adds a further degree of ludicrousness to what follows. 

 

The assassination was the trigger.  The core of the explosion was the web of insane international treaties that meant that once one country mobilised, then others would mobilise in a domino cascade. It wasn't helped by one country, which wanted its place in the sun and felt "surrounded", creating war plans that involved the rapid transportation by rail of troops to fronts based on the estimated speed of mobilisation by their opponents.

 

Then all the flag waving kicked in as individual countries sought to bolster the size of their armed forces.

 

Prior to that, there was the inflammatory behaviour of the tabloid press demanding the increased production of battleships to match that of other countries, which didn't increase the possibility of immediate war, but sensitised the "public" to being fatally aroused in favour of it at a later date.

 

I blame the triple entente, the triple alliance, the railways and the Daily Mail for the whole mess...

 

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Hroth
Repetition...

[Donw]

I think one of the problems was that the military bosses aware of the changes to warefare and the capabilities of the railways to speed mobilisation where terriefied of the others attacking before they were ready so had plans to rush to war as soon as there was a trigger. That is might be a terroist action and not a planned attack from another country was probably not considered but once they started down that route no one dared to call a halt. Besides as with most top military they wanted to prove they were the best. 

It will all be over by Christmas, some joke.

 

My maternal Gandfather  was lost missing in action but later found in a French field hospital. In a coma for days, lost one eye, full of schrapnel and his lungs affected by gas it probably saved his life as he was invalided out. Come the second world war he and his family suffered the blitz until the Luftwaffe bombed their block and they lost everything not taken to the shelter. Patriotic to the core he blamed the Germans for it all. If he had met a German who had suffered similarly he might have understood.

 

Don 

[Hroth]

My maternal Grandmother lost two brothers, my paternal Grandfather lost a brother, He himself was lucky in that though he was a ships engineer in the merchant service, he was in mainly far-eastern waters, I've just come across his war medals.

 

As far as I know, I've got all the posthumous general service medals for the three brothers, their "death pennies", scrolls of appreciation and one of the Christmas tins.

[Edwardian]

11 hours ago, Schooner said:

 

With so much glorious music already suggested (give VW's A London Symphony, a direct result of Butterworth's encouragement, a listen whilst you're in the neighbourhood), I thought I might go a little left field with something that sounds bloody awful and that's only loosely attached to your 1900 criterion

 

Peter Bellamy set Kipling poems in two collections, Mr Bellamy, Mr Kipling and the Tradition and Barrack Room Ballads. Perhaps a song for these times from the former:

 

To excuse that racket and give the topic a push Aching-ward, Bellamy's formative years were spent in North Norfolk, the backdrop of his first solo album Mainly Norfolk. That album leant heavily on the repertoire of Harry Cox, farm hand and one of the most important singers in the English folk tradition,  without whom much material would never have been recorded. If you ever need to know what could be heard in the fields and lanes of Castle Aching, he's your man!

 

EDIT: ...of course, no guarentee you could understand a word... [link to Spotify]

 

EDIT: I couldn't think of a way to link this in, but a thought on all the previous suggestions:

High periods for the arts are sometimes suggested to have been a direct result o f hardship. Why is it then that this quintessential period of British music comes when Britain was at her height? Why is so much of it tinged with loss of one kind or another?

 

Fascinating.

 

I had not heard of these albums - I will have a listen - but I had heard of The Young Tradition, as my father had this recording which always gave me goose bumps as a child .... 

 

 

And which, for me, has always had a wonderfully  bleak and mysterious North Country feel to it.

 

Through the Wonders of You Tube, I find that they also sang Dives and Lazarus, for which see also Vaughan Williams's variations (1939) .... 

 

 

I look forward to listening through Mainly Norfolk, which promises to reveal all sorts of unexpected lessons, such as the dangers of German piano tuners (!).

 

And a bit of Harry Cox, The Yarmouth Fisherman's Song

 

I quite like folk songs, even if they often follow the formulaic "As I went out one fair May morn ... never to return" format, and I am also mindful of Tom Lehrer's Theory of folk songs - Clementine!

 

Perhaps, though, we might stay in Norfolk by way of Vaughan Williams.  The opening of Rhapsody No.1 (1906, revised 1914 ) seems to anticipate (or reflect) the Fantasia (1910) and is surely heard in the Sea Interludes from Britten's Peter Grimes (1945)?

 

Anyway, the Rhapsodies are squarely in CA territory, both in time and place, as VW was apparently collecting Norfolk folk songs and drafting the composition in 1905-06, including a visit to King's Lynn in January 1905.  

 

I wonder if we'll see him on the Bishop's Lynn Tramway at some point!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Edwardian
spelling!