Castle Aching

[Edwardian]

A great picture.

 

Spot the clerestory!

 

 

Ah, nearly a cross post.

 

Indeed an interesting assemblage. I would say:

 

Full Brake

Lav. Composite - compartment widths are different, so I'd say 1st and 2nd

Clerestory - really interesting.  Certainly luggage compartment, and wide spacings between the quarter lights, so first class - possibly a (family) saloon? 

Lav. Third (5-compt)

Full Brake

 

 

Looking at this fascinating clerestory again I wondered about the fact that it features a trio of drop-lights flanked with quarter lights, as if they were separate compartments.

 

I still think this is a saloon.  I cannot see evidence of doors where the three drop-lights are located.  Possibly the number (left-hand) and certainly the lettering (centre) in the waist overlap where the doors would be. 

 

So, I stick to my view that this coach side doesn't make much sense as a compartment coach.  From right to left is a door, then a trio of drop-lights flanked with quarter lights. These represent the open saloon.  Next is a lavatory compartment and finally a luggage compartment.

 

I could, of course, be very wrong...!

[wagonman]

Looking at this fascinating clerestory again I wondered about the fact that it features a trio of drop-lights flanked with quarter lights, as if they were separate compartments.

 

I still think this is a saloon.  I cannot see evidence of doors where the three drop-lights are located.  Possibly the number (left-hand) and certainly the lettering (centre) in the waist overlap where the doors would be. 

 

So, I stick to my view that this coach side doesn't make much sense as a compartment coach.  From right to left is a door, then a trio of drop-lights flanked with quarter lights. These represent the open saloon.  Next is a lavatory compartment and finally a luggage compartment.

 

I could, of course, be very wrong...!

 

 

I think you are very right. The thought suddenly occurred to me that this rather unusual rake of coaches might have been connected with a state visit by a dignitary from the eastern Balkans. Officially Bulgaria was part of the Ottoman Empire up to 1908 so this would precede that by a few years but it might explain how the photo ended up in Bulgarian archives.

[petethemole]

By downloading the largest version of the Wiki file and enlarging, the lettering reads "DINING SALOON", possibly one of the 1891 type built for the Harwich-York dining trains: https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/rolling-stock/carriages/types-5-8

[Edwardian]

I think you are very right. The thought suddenly occurred to me that this rather unusual rake of coaches might have been connected with a state visit by a dignitary from the eastern Balkans. Officially Bulgaria was part of the Ottoman Empire up to 1908 so this would precede that by a few years but it might explain how the photo ended up in Bulgarian archives.

 

That is a good thought!

 

The clerestory seems to be in the Holden square lights style, so this would put its build date well into the 1890s, and contemporary with the 6-wheelers we have been discussing in terms of Ratio Conversions and D&S Kits.  I do not see any reference to anything other than Third Class 2-Compt. saloons at this date. Earlier saloons were 18887 and would no doubt have round-tipped lights.

 

 

By downloading the largest version of the Wiki file and enlarging, the lettering reads "DINING SALOON", possibly one of the 1891 type built for the Harwich-York dining trains: https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/rolling-stock/carriages/types-5-8

 

 

Ah, my alternative thought was the 1891 Dining Saloons.  These were certainly clerestories.  I put off mentioning them because these do look like square lights, and 1891 seems a bit early for them.  There are no suitable candidates built later, so I am forced to re-examine the picture.  The door at the right-hand end does appear to have round corners after all.

 

I cannot think of a 6-wheel dining vehicle other than the 1891 examples you mention. The Harwich-York service is covered in GERS Journals 73 and 76, so if I can track these down ...

 

EDIT:  On the Hi-Res version you can clearly discern the rounded corners to the windows, as you can on the preceding composite.  These, then, appear to be the earlier style of Holden coaches (1886-1896), otherwise of essentially similar style, configuration and standard lengths to the 1896-1903 square lights (e.g. D&S).

Edited February 8, 2018 by Edwardian

[Edwardian]

Apropos our 6-Wheel Third Clerestory, these are contemporary with the semi-corridor bogie Clerestory Composites and were, thus, a rather rough deal for the Third Class passenger.

 

The GERS website says:

 

In 1900 and 1901 two batches of 3rd class 6 wheel clerestory carriages appeared with 34ft 6ins bodies and the traditional pair of lavatories accessible only from the adjoining compartments. These were to diagrams 413 and 423 but again there were no discernible differences between the two and but for their clerestory roofs were identical to the diagram 407 arc roofed carriages built until the previous year.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

“Perhaps railways were some twenty years ahead in that regard?”

 

Or, perhaps railways, or at least large swathes of British ones, were so firmly stuck in the C19th, for all sorts of reasons beyond simple inertia, that they amounted to a fleet of the wooden walls of England by the 1950s.

[wagonman]

That is a good thought!

 

The clerestory seems to be in the Holden square lights style, so this would put its build date well into the 1890s, and contemporary with the 6-wheelers we have been discussing in terms of Ratio Conversions and D&S Kits.  I do not see any reference to anything other than Third Class 2-Compt. saloons at this date. Earlier saloons were 18887 and would no doubt have round-tipped lights.

 

 

 

 

 

It could of course just be the Harwich-York train...

[Edwardian]

It could of course just be the Harwich-York train...

 

Yes, posed when new.  This is described on the GERS site as utilising 2 sets of three coaches, so I intended to refrain from comment until I'd tracked down the GERS Journal articles that dealt with the train.

 

You're probably right, though.

[Shadow]

Found another image of 761 on Wiki

 

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2-4-0_GER_T19_class_761.jpg#mw-jump-to-license

 

 

This image states that 761 was converted to use Oil in 1893

[Shadow]

Yes, posed when new.  This is described on the GERS site as utilising 2 sets of three coaches, so I intended to refrain from comment until I'd tracked down the GERS Journal articles that dealt with the train.

 

You're probably right, though.

Although I think that it only has 5 carriages. Can't make out any wheels for the sixth coach under the end of the fifth. ( But it may be just off the edge!)

[Compound2632]

I think what is meant is that there were two sets of three coaches, one set working down one day and up the next and the other vice-versa.

[Nearholmer]

I’m pretty sure that this is a GWR publicity shot that has been reproduced elsewhere, but I found it in another of my ancient books that has a section about slipping, “The Fascination of our Railways” by ‘Mercury’, and I quite like the carriages.

 

Also ........ a six-wheeled catering car!? Without photographic evidence, I would never have believed it.

[Shadow]

Found a whole bunch of GER loco's on this site

 

 

https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/LOCOMOTIVES-OF-LNER-CONSTITUENT-COMPANIES/LOCOMOTIVES-OF-THE-GREAT-EASTERN-RAILWAY/

[Compound2632]

Also ........ a six-wheeled catering car!? Without photographic evidence, I would never have believed it.

 

The very first LNWR dining carriages were 34' 6-wheelers.

[Edwardian]

I think what is meant is that there were two sets of three coaches, one set working down one day and up the next and the other vice-versa.

 

I would assume so.

 

However, the impression from the site is that a trio were purpose built, though not necessarily all clerestory, and the flanking coaches, composite and third I guess, look like standard 34'6" designs of the period. 

 

Given that there are Journal articles covering this train, I have refrained from further comment until I can check them.

 

I suspect that, yes, this will turn out to be a publicity shot for the new Harwich-York set.

[Edwardian]

Found a whole bunch of GER loco's on this site

 

 

https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/LOCOMOTIVES-OF-LNER-CONSTITUENT-COMPANIES/LOCOMOTIVES-OF-THE-GREAT-EASTERN-RAILWAY/

 

Thanks! Lots of goods stuff there, including Sinclair and Bromley Singles and what looks like a works shot of an Adams 0-4-4T.

[Edwardian]

... a six-wheeled catering car!? Without photographic evidence, I would never have believed it.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Edwardian

[Nearholmer]

Mon Dieu!

[Edwardian]

Look what I found!

[Donw]

Look what I found!

 

Interesting  found where? In the back of your modelling cupboard? Tucked away in a box in the loft? At a swapmeet? The best find I had was at an 0 gauge open day at Pett where someone was selling some things belonging to a late friend which included a part built 0 gauge Cambrian 73 class loco we agreed a price of £70 which I didn't have with me nor a cheque book. As he recognised my name from the Gazette it was take the bits and send me a cheque. There are still Gentlemen in this world. 

 

Don

[Edwardian]

Interesting  found where? In the back of your modelling cupboard? Tucked away in a box in the loft? At a swapmeet? The best find I had was at an 0 gauge open day at Pett where someone was selling some things belonging to a late friend which included a part built 0 gauge Cambrian 73 class loco we agreed a price of £70 which I didn't have with me nor a cheque book. As he recognised my name from the Gazette it was take the bits and send me a cheque. There are still Gentlemen in this world. 

 

Don

 

I just found the picture on the interweb a while back, while trawling for info on GE 6-wheelers.

 

I can only assume that it is intended to represent something like the Harwich-York service, because the Lav. Third and the 1st/2nd Lav. Comp have gangways at each end, enabling them to sandwich the dining car.  Is this the trio of coaches of which we have heard tell?

 

Otherwise that Lav. Third represents a standard Holden design of the period, as, I think, do the Lav. and Luggage Comps and the Full-brake. 

 

These, then, resemble the general service designs - 1886-1896 they have radial lights; 1896-1898 they had square lights and were a few inches higher; and, 1900-1901 some Lav. thirds were built with clerestories.   

 

IIRC, the GE abandoned 2nd Class on general service stock in 1893, retaining it for the North Country Continentals.

[Nearholmer]

Are those coaches 00?

 

Whatever they are, they look venerable.

 

I’ve got a theory that certain old model trains actually seek out a suitable new owner for themselves. This insane notion is based on the fact that, several times, I’ve got interested in some quite hard to find old thing by reading about it in a book or old magazine, dismissed the possibility of ever finding it, let alone at an affordable price, then .... pop! It appears on EBay or a secondhand stall at a meeting, or somebody says to me “ Might you be interested in ......”.

 

I’ve just come into two quite rare ‘clockers’, and the chance of finding either was slim, but of finding both together, in very good order, with interesting and documented provenance, when I could afford them ....... I’m sure they found me.

 

Kevin

[Edwardian]

Are those coaches 00?

 

Whatever they are, they look venerable.

 

I’ve got a theory that certain old model trains actually seek out a suitable new owner for themselves. This insane notion is based on the fact that, several times, I’ve got interested in some quite hard to find old thing by reading about it in a book or old magazine, dismissed the possibility of ever finding it, let alone at an affordable price, then .... pop! It appears on EBay or a secondhand stall at a meeting, or somebody says to me “ Might you be interested in ......”.

 

I’ve just come into two quite rare ‘clockers’, and the chance of finding either was slim, but of finding both together, in very good order, with interesting and documented provenance, when I could afford them ....... I’m sure they found me.

 

Kevin

 

 

OO I think.

 

Careful, this idea of apparently inanimate objects wanting to be found is all a bit Lord of the Ringsey!

[Nearholmer]

It a very long time since I read it, and haven’t seen the films, but there must be at least some small danger that, one day, I will be found living in darkness in my man cave, holding conversations with myself, and patting a clockwork locomotive while miuttering “pretty precious”.

[Edwardian]

It a very long time since I read it, and haven’t seen the films, but there must be at least some small danger that, one day, I will be found living in darkness in my man cave, holding conversations with myself, and patting a clockwork locomotive while miuttering “pretty precious”.

 

One Bing to Rule them all!