Castle Aching

[Hroth]

I would assume that if they did that the WNR would charge them demurrage if they were their wagons. Of course, the merchants could be using their own wagons. I'm not sure what the situation was with colliery wagons, but I would think that there would be some sort of disincentive to prevent the merchants holding on to them and so keeping them out of revenue earning service.

Jim

I feel that the coal merchants would unload the coal from wagons as quickly as possible, either bagging it up into 1 cwt sacks on their cart from the wagon, or transferring the load to a designated part of the goods yard for more leisurely bagging and casual sales.  Empties would be taken away as soon as possible or, as you say, some sort of charge would be levied to deter slackness!

[Hroth]

There is some very interesting lichen on that rock in the foreground...

 

We've been here before but perhaps we could have some genuine railway-related 19th century eroticism:

 

1083px-Augustus_Leopold_Egg_-_The_Travelling_Companions_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg

 

The travelling companion on the left has removed her gloves.

There's a basket of fruit next to her.  I'm just waiting for her to start peeling a banana...

[Edwardian]

I was assuming that the longest siding (at the rear) (19 wagons) would cater for both coal and feed merchants, lime etc etc

 

I had in mind a row of shanty offices and stores for these traders behind the siding, framing the yard.

 

The middle siding (16 wagons) serves the good shed.  This I thought might be a modest one with a platform front and small canopy, rather than one built over the line.

 

The nearest siding could probably have a side loading dock as well as the end. I wonder if this, or one of the other sidings, should have the livestock pens. 

 

Goods coming inward to the system, via GER, Wolfringham Staithe or the Bishop's Lynn tramway, would come to CA and then reverse, leaving any CA traffic in the yard, and perhaps also detaching wagons for forwarding onto Achingham.

 

Likewise, outgoing goods would be marshalled there.

 

I think goods to and from MGN might be marshalled at Massingham Magna, because there is a westward facing connection to the Lynn and Fakenham line there.

 

EDIT PS: CA does have a coal merchant.  That much we do know!

 

By the way, Israel Turner is listed in Kelly's Directory for 1904 as a "coal dealer" at Castle Acre, that is why I chose the name.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Edwardian

[Compound2632]

There's a basket of fruit next to her.  I'm just waiting for her to start peeling a banana...

 

Contain your excitement. Another interpretation is that the one on the right is in fact a Smurf.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Compound2632

[Hroth]

Contain your excitement. Another interpretation is that the one on the right is in fact a Smurf.

I had been thinking that it was just a mirror to discourage other would be occupants from trying to enter the compartment.  But, as noted. The gloves are off...

[Regularity]

There's a basket of fruit next to her.  I'm just waiting for her to start peeling a banana...

And you said I had a dirty mind...

[Metropolitan H]

About the one bit of art appreciation class that I do remember is, that the one with the gloves on has just left home to go on the grand tour, while the other one - note also the loosened hair - is returning home from the grand tour having tasted the forbidden fruit!

 

All a bit subtle if you ask me.

 

regards

Chris H

[Edwardian]

Some of the pre-raff stuff had a real modern moral edge to it. We tend to miss the impact admidst the period costume spendour.

 

Well, for all my interest in what might genuinely be regarded as art, and notwithstanding my own weakness for a good, or bad, double entendre, I was recently reminded by a forum member of the need to show some sense of decorum and restraint, and not to lapse into the crude or go beyond images of winsome pre-Raphaelites or chaste images of Jenny A.

 

It has even been suggested that we talk mainly about railways, though I fear that might be going rather too far!

 

And now it's time for Locomotive of the Day:

[Londontram]

That's pretty what is it (apart from the obvious)

[Donw]

That's pretty what is it (apart from the obvious)

 

When I place my cursor over the picture I get a small box stating it is a GER Little Sharpie no 160 built 1871 in Johnson green livery. I thought it was a Little Sharpie but the rest of the info was unknown without the picture caption box.

 

Don 

[TheQ]

Certainly many coal merchants did not have coal staithes in the yard, the main village I'm modelling had 3 coal merchants, two unloaded at the coal siding (up to 8 wagons). One (my families) unloaded in the military yard, none had staithes in the railway yard.. Wagons were often unloaded straight in to sacks (weighing scales were on the back of the road wagon) however there were coal staithes in the coal merchants yards so some was shoveled straight into the lorry. ( My Dad as a boy during WW2 assisted)

 

 As for chimneys, my house completed in 1906 in Norfolk was a 2 up 2 down in those days and had 4 coal fires  (one was a cooking range of course)

[Edwardian]

When I place my cursor over the picture I get a small box stating it is a GER Little Sharpie no 160 built 1871 in Johnson green livery. I thought it was a Little Sharpie but the rest of the info was unknown without the picture caption box.

 

Don 

 

Indeed.  One of my favourites, S W Johnson's No.1 Class.  They are more familiar in their rebuilt form, as running around the turn of the Century.

 

A very useful design, with 5'7" coupled wheels, built from 1867 in the form pictured in my previous post.  They had a wide distribution across the system, but were seen in increasing numbers in their latter days in the Norwich and Lynn districts, and by 1905 would seem to be the perfect loco for chuffing along the GE's West Norfolk Extension railway, or, indeed, running through to the independent West Norfolk Railway.

 

Even as rebuilt to a later GE style, they remained very charismatic engines, in my view, and, rather splendidly, they retained their 4-wheel tenders to the end.

 

The first of the class, No.1, was the last survivor, finally withdrawn in December 1913. 

 

We had the snow yesterday, but I gather Norfolk has it today.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Edwardian

[Regularity]

About the one bit of art appreciation class that I do remember is, that the one with the gloves on has just left home to go on the grand tour, while the other one - note also the loosened hair - is returning home from the grand tour having tasted the forbidden fruit!

No gloves - quite shocking!

Some of the pre-raff stuff had a real modern moral edge to it. We tend to miss the impact admidst the period costume spendour.

I must admit that the lady without the gloves has a slightly wistful air about her, reminiscent of fadings.

I did wonder if perchance there was someone under that enormous dress?

A lot of art has more to it than we at first realise, particularly where the artist wanted to slyly cock a snoop at the authorities.

 

Mind you, there could be some funny events.

One of Whistler’s “Nocturne in Black and Gold” was described by John Ruskin as being the result of him “flinging a pot of paint into the public’s face” (I am surprised this hasn’t been actually done as a form of immersive art - or perhaps it has?) and the thin-skinned creator promptly sued for libel. He won - after all, he simply had to prove that he hadn’t done this, and had put time and effort into his work - but the jury awarded him all of a farthing in damages, and the judge awarded no costs. It ruined both of them.

 

Edit: Black and Gold, not t’other way about.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Regularity

[Regularity]

Indeed.  One of my favourites, S W Johnson's No.1 Class.  They are more familiar in their rebuilt form, as running around the turn of the Century.

 

A very useful design, with 5'7" coupled wheels, built from 1867 in the form pictured in my previous post.  They had a wide distribution across the system, but were seen in increasing numbers in their latter days in the Norwich and Lynn districts, and by 1905 would seem to be the perfect loco for chuffing along the GE's West Norfolk Extension railway, or, indeed, running through to the independent West Norfolk Railway.

 

Even as rebuilt to a later GE style, they remained very charismatic engines, in my view, and, rather splendidly, they retained their 4-wheel tenders to the end.

One of my favourites, too: I even got as far as a running chassis for loco and tender. The former went under the late John Coulter’s Cambrian 2-4-0T.

 

The GER used the no 1 class, plus their successors the T26 (E4) and indeed the fitted versions of Y14 (J15) for a lot of cross country power, deploying them as genuine mixed traffic engines: there is a lovely photo of one on a fairly lengthy train composed mostly of 5 plank opens in a booklet on Norfolk railways, showing just valuable they were. The later T19R 4-4-0 rebuilds, which used the rear bogies from the E10 0-4-4Ts, (D13) were also used this way, and seem to have been the replacements for the little Johnson engines.

[Edwardian]

One of my favourites, too: I even got as far as a running chassis for loco and tender. The former went under the late John Coulter’s Cambrian 2-4-0T.

 

The GER used the no 1 class, plus their successors the T26 (E4) and indeed the fitted versions of Y14 (J15) for a lot of cross country power, deploying them as genuine mixed traffic engines: there is a lovely photo of one on a fairly lengthy train composed mostly of 5 plank opens in a booklet on Norfolk railways, showing just valuable they were. The later T19R 4-4-0 rebuilds, which used the rear bogies from the E10 0-4-4Ts, (D13) were also used this way, and seem to have been the replacements for the little Johnson engines.

 

It ought to be possible to derive both the fitted series of Y14s (which were painted in blue passenger livery as opposed to the unlined goods black worn by the rest of the class in the 1900s) and a T26 from the Hornby J15.

 

The worst job is nothing to do with the back-dating, but is the remounting the boiler handrails radially.  Otherwise, cutting down the cab and replacing chimney and safety valve covers is hardly the greatest challenge.  Perhaps moving the dome forward.  If a Y14, why not a T26?  After all, the latter is essentially a Y14 with a different wheel-set (much as a T19 is a T26 with larger wheels and a Claud is a T19 with a bogie!). 

 

At the turn of the Century, I imagine that the majority of Y14s were still hard at work on goods services on the GE-GN Joint line, which had given the Eastern much coveted access to coal traffic. I suspect it was only much later that the class migrated to East Anglian byways.

 

On the other hand, I imagine that the passenger fitted Y14s might be more appropriate for CA - as you say, on a cross-country passenger service.

 

The T26s, the "Intermediates", were truly Really Useful Engines, and they would have been very widespread on the system from the first, including Lynn and Norwich districts. Another 'must' for Edwardian Norfolk, I suggest. 

 

So, there you have it, Simon, you have anticipated the other members of my planned Trinity of GER locomotives:

 

5'7" 2-4-0 No.1 Class

 

5'8" 2-4-0 417 or T26 Class

 

0-6-0 Y14 of the Westinghouse fitted series of 1899

 

After all, West Norfolk is a vacuum-braked line, and its engines are not dual fitted, so the GER stock has to arrive somehow!

Edited February 7, 2018 by Edwardian

[Nearholmer]

While we are on trains, however briefly, I thought you might like these, which I found while looking for ancient tinplate wagon adverts.

 

Wouldn’t it be good if the GER through coaches on the WNR were slips, from some super-speed express?

 

All that clutter adds a bit of interest to the carriage end.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

Fascinating.

 

I notice the round-topped panelling and raised beading on the waist on the slip vehicle, suggesting an 1880s design.  Perhaps we might call it "Stratford Gothic", though that would be just too silly, surely?

 

Had it been earlier (late 1870s), I would expect it to have the waist beading, but not the recessed panels on the upper half.  Had it been later (early 1890s), it would have retained larger radius top corners, but have recessed rounded edge waist panels.  Hence I suggest 1880s. This is largely educated guess-work based upon observation, as there is no work of which I know that deals with the evolution of GER coach styling, and there are few drawings available. 

 

The clerestory appears to be one of the 5-compartment lavatory thirds of which I do have a drawing. I had not seen a picture of one before, so this is invaluable. 

 

Thanks muchly

[jwealleans]

Where did you source that drawing, James? I've not seen that before.

[Edwardian]

Where did you source that drawing, James? I've not seen that before.

 

These are very precious - just 4 drawings from 1950s RMs that Northroader of this Parish very kindly photocopied for me.  

 

The only detailed drawings I have of GER 6-wheelers.

[jwealleans]

Can I ask where the photographs were published? I've only ever seen one photo of the 6 wheel clerestories (which is in one of Dr. Allen's volumes).

[Edwardian]

Can I ask where the photographs were published? I've only ever seen one photo of the 6 wheel clerestories (which is in one of Dr. Allen's volumes).

 

Yes, I was wondering.  Two of the three photographs are reproduced in CEJ Fryer's A History of Slipping and Slip Carriages (Oakwood Press), but the one with the 6-wheel clerestory Third is not, and this picture is entirely new to me. 

 

Of the others, the close up of the coach end is a better quality in your version than the version reproduced in the Oakwood volume, though the latter shows a little more of the coach side.

 

What is splendid is your picture of the Humpty-Dumpty on the express. The Oakwood volume captions this as A Great Eastern Railway slip from a down train near Broxbourne c.1905. But!  The picture is cropped, and does not show the three slipped vehicles seen in the full shot that you reproduce!  An odd editorial choice, surely?

 

So, all in all, an invaluable selection you have found there, Kevin. 

 

The Oakwood volume pictures another pair of 6-wheelers being slipped, also said to be c.1905.

 

EDIT:  The GER was at the height of its slipping around 1904, with 25-26 slip services. 

 

None of them, however, seemed to involve its Norfolk services; Audley End, Bishop's Stortford, Broxbourne,Colchester, Harlow, Ingastone, Mark's Tey, Shenfield, Tottenham, Waltham Cross, Witham. 

 

Whereas you might suppose that the GE might be tempted to slip a portion from a Norwich service, or from a Cromer express, for the WNR, we have the problems of no connections to those lines (the WN's connection is with the GE's Lynn to Hunstanton line), and no means of working stray air-braked vehicles across WNR territory. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Edwardian

[Nearholmer]

They’re by C J Allan, from an article, or possibly series, about slipping. In 1909, building working model slip coaches, and working model mail bag collectors for that matter, seems to have been very popular with hobbyists.

 

The Brighton section of the SR was, I think, the last to slip in the country, so maybe I’d better read these articles carefully, and get to work.

[Edwardian]

They’re by C J Allan, from an article, or possibly series, about slipping. In 1909, building working model slip coaches, and working model mail bag collectors for that matter, seems to have been very popular with hobbyists.

 

The Brighton section of the SR was, I think, the last to slip in the country, so maybe I’d better read these articles carefully, and get to work.

 

I suspect it might have been the last of the southern system to do so - up to April 1932 on the Central Section according to Fryer.

 

The Western Region continued up to 1960, however.

[Donw]

I suspect it might have been the last of the southern system to do so - up to April 1932 on the Central Section according to Fryer.

 

The Western Region continued up to 1960, however.

 

Father in Law was in a slip coach attached to the Torbay Express and slipped at Reading just before WW2. He said it was an odd experience seeing the rest of the train going away as they coasted into the platform.

 

Don

[sem34090]

I am now once again enjoying the thread during my lunch hour! It's nice to escape, by the GER then the WNR, to Castle Aching... It's a long journey from Sussex, but the LBSCR Baltic tanks can get up to quite a speed these days, and the GER has some good running nowadays too!