Castle Aching

[Hroth]

 

A Mock Tudor engine shed would be rather fun.

Brick (Hampton Court style) or Half Timbered?

 

 

St Lawrence (Denton, Greater Manchester) would make a spiffing single road shed, all it needs is is an enlarged door at the west end. and that small bell cupola would make an excellent smoke vent!

[corneliuslundie]

While nearly on the subject, Berriew - Aber-rhiw yng Ngymraeg - was "half timbered" as a result of the whim of the current Earl of Powis at the end of he 19th century, even though it meant that "timber" had to be painted on existing brick buildings - there are still some in the village. The little cottage on my Sarn layout is a model of a genuine timbered building from the village.

And model farms go back a b it further in Wales. There were a few in the western Brecon Beacons. The one most relevant to CA was actually served by the Brecon Forest Tramroad at Cnewr, about which there is an excellent book by Stephen Hughes. Now inevitably a holiday rental property!

https://cnewrestate.co.uk/farmhouse-holiday-rental

The trams entered the courtyard by the big archway.

Jonathan

[Edwardian]

Brick (Hampton Court style) or Half Timbered?

 

StLawrence Denton.JPG

 

St Lawrence (Denton, Greater Manchester) would make a spiffing single road shed, all it needs is is an enlarged door at the west end. and that small bell cupola would make an excellent smoke vent!

 

Well, of particular interest is the modern extension in the style.

 

You pose a good question.  We will see lots of  brick, flint and carstone Victorian revival styles, which encompass Elizabethan and Jacobean. Such is undoubtedly suitable for Norfolk, and we've looked at examples such as Flitcham and the Sandringham estate.

 

I assume from Kevin's use of the term Mock Tudor that he is thinking in terms of half-timbered Elizabethan, so my thoughts were tending in that direction.

 

Kevin asks if it was 'in' by the 1890s.

 

Well, most of these styles start with the private homes of the wealthy and then cascade downwards.  The 'Queen Anne' revival ended with the Gin Palace and the "Domestic Revival' or 'Tudor Revival' half-timbered variant ended with the 1930s Semi.

 

We see the Duke and Duchess of Hamilton adopt the half-timbered style for a new mansion at  Easton Park, Suffolk, in 1875. The Rothschilds were keen on it, as we see from Ascott House, Buckinghamshire (1874), and the estate village at Mentmore, Bucks, also 1870s.  The example with which I am personally familiar is the Duke of Westminster's Eaton Hall, Cheshire, the half-timbered portions of which I believe are again 1870s.

 

In terms of railway architecture, it does not seem to have been taken up much before the mid-1890s, see Carrickfergus and Wemyss Bay.

 

However, we are looking for an estate building, not a railway company building, so it seems quite possible that we might have a Mock Tudor engine shed on a private line, though in the prototype I've yet to see it done! 

 

All this rather reminds me of the home of Henry and Edith D'Ascoyne ...

[Nearholmer]

I was thinking half-timbered. The Rothschild’s were big on this style, and there is a ‘home farm’ at one of their multidunious mansions in it, but I can’t find a photo on-line.

 

But, that little church looks almost ‘not mock enough’, too real. Is the frame load-bearing, rather than a few planks nailed-on for effect?

 

I’m pretty sure that Daimler had the German equivalent of a mock-Elizabethan loco shed on the very narrow gauge railway that he built in the 1880s, but again no photos on-line.

 

What we need is a cart-shed or pump-house or something in overtly ‘mock’ to use as a model.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Hroth]

It looks genuine timber framed, built 1531, "extended" 1872, so the "annexes" are probably genuine Victorian fake-timbered, though not as badly as 30s nailed on Tudor!

 

Look at the differences at the foot of the buildings.  The main body of the church has a timber rail on a thin stone base, the annex to the right a much taller stone, or probably brick base.

[Edwardian]

It looks genuine timber framed, built 1531, "extended" 1872, so the "annexes" are probably genuine Victorian fake-timbered, though not as badly as 30s nailed on Tudor!

 

Look at the differences at the foot of the buildings.  The main body of the church has a timber rail on a thin stone base, the annex to the right a much taller stone, or probably brick base.

 

Interesting that the modern extension is also 1870s.

 

The use of the style for country houses and associated estate buildings seems to have occupied a fairly brief period, c.1872-1878. 

 

That does not particularly fit with the advent of the Bagnall, so perhaps we should have something earlier, to be joined later by the Bagnall?

 

I cannot help but wonder if the structures of a 'soil amendment' company would be more utilitarian than those of a private estate railway?

[Edwardian]

While nearly on the subject, Berriew - Aber-rhiw yng Ngymraeg - was "half timbered" as a result of the whim of the current Earl of Powis at the end of he 19th century, even though it meant that "timber" had to be painted on existing brick buildings - there are still some in the village. The little cottage on my Sarn layout is a model of a genuine timbered building from the village.

And model farms go back a b it further in Wales. There were a few in the western Brecon Beacons. The one most relevant to CA was actually served by the Brecon Forest Tramroad at Cnewr, about which there is an excellent book by Stephen Hughes. Now inevitably a holiday rental property!

https://cnewrestate.co.uk/farmhouse-holiday-rental

The trams entered the courtyard by the big archway.

Jonathan

 

Most interesting, and trains entering through an arch is a delightful motif.

[Northroader]

My favourite black and white building is Melverley Church, on the banks of the River Severn on the Welsh English border. It’s an original building, and if you’re inside when the winds blowing, it’s just the same as being in a large farm barn, most evocative. Sorry, a bit away from what you want, I just thought I’d share it.

[Hroth]

 

I cannot help but wonder if the structures of a 'soil amendment' company would be more utilitarian than those of a private estate railway?

Something like this then?

 

 

It'd make sense for someone in the "vurtelizer" business to use an apprpriate existing building, and not do much to improve IT!

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Actually, the book below contains a lot of photos and details of German agricultural railways, model farms etc, including timbered ones. It is a serious paving-slab of a book, and there are similar ones about the French equivalent railways. In England, we really didn’t have anything like the number or extent of such things, the Smiths Potato railway in Lincolnshire being about the only big, long-lasting one, East Anglia being about the only place with similar topography to eastern Germany (and a lot of what is now Poland) and northern-central France.

[Nearholmer]

It depends how well capitalised the WNSAC was. If only barely, then cheap buildings, but if they managed to gull enough punters, they could have splurged, if not on mock-Elizabethan, then on a solidly good brick engine-shed with nice detailing. As the report of the RAS exhibition makes clear, 1889 was a moment of prosperity for agriculture, after a long bad period, and, not that they knew it, before another bad period. Prices don't seem to have stabilised at a good level until the mid-1890s.

Anyone know why things were briefly good for farmers in 1889?

Edited November 16, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Hroth]

Probably, in modern jargon, "Peak Empire"?

 

We'd done most of the colonial expansion we thought we needed, the Boer war was yet to come, we weren't in a Dreadnought arms race with Bismarkian Germany flexing its nuroses, and advances in scientific agriculture was improving productivity hand over fist.

 

And of course, railways had perfected the art of getting produce from the field to the dinner table in the shortest time possible.

 

Interestingly, the first Sherlock Holmes story was published in 1887, so the late 1880s sounds pretty tickety-boo...

Edited November 16, 2018 by Hroth

[Edwardian]

Probably, in modern jargon, "Peak Empire"?

 

We'd done most of the colonial expansion we thought we needed, the Boer war was yet to come, we weren't in a Dreadnought arms race with Bismarkian Germany flexing its nuroses, and advances in scientific agriculture was improving productivity hand over fist.

 

And of course, railways had perfected the art of getting produce from the field to the dinner table in the shortest time possible.

 

Interestingly, the first Sherlock Holmes story was published in 1887, so the late 1880s sounds pretty tickety-boo...

 

We had recently lost a war against the Boers and, of course, we were rather cut up about Khartoum, but none of that stopped us.

 

We were also heading for something of a golden age in comic writing:

 

Diary of a Nobody, serialised in Punch 1888–89 (as a book in 1892), co-authored by George Grossmith, who played comic G&S roles in the Savoy Opera.

 

The Wrong Box, 1889, co-authored by Robert Louis Stevenson

 

Three Men in a Boat, 1889.

[TheQ]

Probably, in modern jargon, "Peak Empire"?

 

, we weren't in a Dreadnought arms race with Bismarkian Germany flexing its nuroses, and advances in scientific agriculture was improving productivity hand over fist.

 

...

The Naval act of 1889 was passed stating the the British Navy should be twice the size of any other two put together, We'd be lucky to put two ships out these days,... so the Naval arms race had been triggered.. With the start of construction of 10 large battleships, 42 cruisers, and 18 torpedo destroyers

 

IN 1889 we were in dispute with the French, the Americans with the Germans  and we were  between  two Boer wars.

Edited November 16, 2018 by TheQ

[Nearholmer]

The economic shock of cheap imported grain had probably ‘worked its way out of the system’, and although import of frozen meat had started, i’d hazard that population growth in urban areas meant that there was still a solid market for home-produced meat ....... in fact population growth might answer why agriculture seems to have done quite well from the mid-1890s to just before WW1 ...... plenty of mouths to feed.

 

So, pretty good times, unless you were the urban poor, and even they were beginning to get a some benefits of things like sanitation and education.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

For Model Farm architecture of the 1880s, how about College Farm, Finchley? A model farm built for George Barham of the Express Dairy Co Ltd in 1883. Redundant by 1891.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Edwardian

[TheQ]

1872 was the first successfull shipment of Lamb to the UK, promptly making all the efforts of Highland landowners to make their properties profitable useless. They had been mostly in debt , before the Highland clearances and the mass emigration (some voluntary) they replaced the Cottars and some Crofters with Sheep. So for maybe 30  years they started clearing their debts, and then imported lamb took over. At that point many areas were turned over to deer "forests", to try to make money from Hunters. etc..

Edited November 16, 2018 by TheQ

[Nearholmer]

Which could be mistaken for the carriage/stable block at Bletchley Park, which was built for Sir Herbert Leon at almost exactly the same date.

 

Suggests that our loco shed should have a toned-down version of mockery, probably largely confined to the gables.

 

Maybe this Superquick cottage for the manager/agent to live in?

Edited November 16, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

Which could be mistaken for the carriage/stable block at Bletchley Park, which was built for Sir Herbert Leon at almost exactly the same date.

 

Suggests that our loco shed should have a toned-down version of mockery, probably largely confined to the gables.

 

Maybe this Superquick cottage for the manager/agent to live in?

 

That house seems entirely suitable.  It would be fun attempting to 'elevate' that kit. I've always liked Superquick.

 

And Bletchley would provide a splendid yard entrance ....  thank you

[DonB]

We had recently lost a war against the Boers and, of course, we were rather cut up about Khartoum, but none of that stopped us.

 

We were also heading for something of a golden age in comic writing:

 

Diary of a Nobody, serialised in Punch 1888–89 (as a book in 1892), co-authored by George Grossmith, who played comic G&S roles in the Savoy Opera.

 

The Wrong Box, 1889, co-authored by Robert Louis Stevenson

 

Three Men in a Boat, 1889.

A neat coincidence... Annie's Walsall wagon plate  and Jerome K.Jerome's Three Men in a Boat ,,,, Jerome spent the early years of his life in Walsall where the HQ of the J K J society is based. Any one interested , I can supply details, or see  www.jeromekjerome.com

[Edwardian]

A neat coincidence... Annie's Walsall wagon plate  and Jerome K.Jerome's Three Men in a Boat ,,,, Jerome spent the early years of his life in Walsall where the HQ of the J K J society is based. Any one interested , I can supply details, or see  www.jeromekjerome.com

 

Ah yes, Walsall. Inspiration for the famous concerto ...

[Northroader]

Theres no one mentioned the Eaton Hall estate, in Cheshire, owned by Lord Nob himself, and the top place for ng Railway ferrying stuff round the farm, and, have a look at the reflection in the polished dome.

[Edwardian]

Theres no one mentioned the Eaton Hall estate, in Cheshire, owned by Lord Nob himself, and the top place for ng Railway ferrying stuff round the farm, and, have a look at the reflection in the polished dome.83FB75A2-3BC1-4D14-99A1-774EA2CB1392.jpeg

 

We have looked at this before. Indexer!!!

 

Minimum gauge (15" or 18", can't recall?), of course, but the infrastructure is well worth considering.

 

The Belgrave engine shed was rather fine, though not half-timbered. Though the former carriage shed at the Eaton terminus, however, looks just the sort of thing ....

Edited November 16, 2018 by Edwardian

[Nearholmer]

I left Eaton Hall out of this, because it was so utterly untypical of practical field railways, as much a rich man’s toy as a utility.

 

It has inspired countless ‘estate railway’ models, where Smiths at Nocton (below) would be the more valid archetype.

 

But, look at that stock shed. A half-timbered gable! I’d forgotten that.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Nearholmer

[lanchester]

I thought that was Spam in Alum?

 

Indigestible I know, but things were difficult in Tudor times.

 

Railway modelling was a bit primitive too...

 

Bavarian Mine Tub.png

I may have got this wrong, but I think that the long beam to which everything else was attached was the original meaning of the word 'tram', from which all the other more modern usages derive, somewhat indirectly.