Castle Aching

[Donw]

8 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

It's the GNR terminus at Stamford East - here in 2mil - and if I post a shot of the other end of the layout, you'll doubtless recognise the engine shed as the basis of the Prototype Models LNER engine shed kit.

 

 

This layout was the cause of an unexpected diversion for an hour or so of Friday afternoon.  The exhibitor had remembered to pack everything save for the split pins that attached the legs to the board, so off I dash with a Darlington Club member to his home workshop where we spend a happy and companionable hour fashioning replacements out of brass rod. 

 

We like to look after our visitors. 

 

Every exhibitors nightmare forgetting something seemingly minor but actually essential. Not a bad idea to write out a check list and remember to go through it before setting off.  Of course if you can design out special items you have more chance of getting something in a local ironmongers. For eample I use split hinges to join boards and found that standard nails can be used to join them.

Don

[Donw]

6 hours ago, Annie said:

 

Thank you, - I.K.Brunel was one of the greatest engineers who has ever lived, but his was by no means a perfect genius and he did make some errors of judgement at times.

 

If I couldn't access the NLS map database I wouldn't have got very far at all with any of my projects.  Their digital map service is second to none and I'm very happy with the maps I've purchased from them so far.

After looking at the map of Reading you linked to I have to say that I'm very glad to be not attempting to make a model of the city and its railways.  A fascinating map though and I have to confess that I can lose whole hours in studying these wonderful old OS maps.

 

Edit:  Thanks very much James for the wonderful photos.

 

I grew up across the river from KIngs Meadow where the GW main lines were on an embankment so we had a good view of the slow lines which were on the north side. Reading is not a city merely a town but the Station was quite extensive the fast lines had a centre through road avoiding the platforms. Seeing James I  coming through at high speed on the down Bristolian was quite something. Modelling the station would be difficult because of the sheer amount of trains let alone the space needed. Perhaps easier in you digital world.

Don

[Edwardian]

51 minutes ago, Donw said:

 

Every exhibitors nightmare forgetting something seemingly minor but actually essential. Not a bad idea to write out a check list and remember to go through it before setting off.  Of course if you can design out special items you have more chance of getting something in a local ironmongers. For eample I use split hinges to join boards and found that standard nails can be used to join them.

Don

 

Indeed, our first thought, but a search of the club house produced no such nails.

 

For want of a nail ....

 

On the Topic That Should Not Be Mentioned (I thought we were discussing Star Wars), I feel the sudden absence in my life of an Irish grandparent. Anyone out there care to volunteer?

 

Alternatively, I prescribe attending a model railway exhibition as a host club member; there really is not time for reality, however dire, to intrude. 

 

Into each life some rain must fall, and presently there is no sign of pre-decimal precipitation. 

 

So, I prescribe a little early Grouping musical cheer....

 

 

This number dates from 1929 and is from a musical by composer Vivian Ellis, as I think is fairly well known, as is his Coronation Scot 

 

Turning to Coronation Scot, it is not a blue streamlined Stannier Pacific with go faster stripes that we should imagine, but a King or Castle,  lined green, copper-topped chimney and brass safety valve-cover, with a string of chocolate and cream 70 footers in tow, producing that magnificent and immortal Swindon exhaust beat.

 

This recording of Coronation Scot has an introduction in which the composer admits that the rhythm was taken from his regular journey from Paddington to Taunton!   

 

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Edwardian

[St Enodoc]

51 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Do not say: "You've made a good job of that old card kit" ...

I get the same reaction to my scratchbuilt model of Dunster signal box, which Hornby copied a few years after I built it.

[Edwardian]

34 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

 

 

 

Pre-coffee. Anything can happen

Edited September 1, 2019 by Edwardian

[Northroader]

Did the SER have mixed gauge?

[Compound2632]

44 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Did the SER have mixed gauge?

 

The LCDR did, at Victoria, thanks to the Great Western's part share in that half of the station - as discussed here.

[Annie]

2 hours ago, Donw said:

 

I grew up across the river from KIngs Meadow where the GW main lines were on an embankment so we had a good view of the slow lines which were on the north side. Reading is not a city merely a town but the Station was quite extensive the fast lines had a centre through road avoiding the platforms. Seeing James I  coming through at high speed on the down Bristolian was quite something. Modelling the station would be difficult because of the sheer amount of trains let alone the space needed. Perhaps easier in your digital world.

Don

Not for this digital girl Don.  Country railways and secondary lines are more my thing.  A chap in the creator group I belong to is building Snow Hill which is so far out of my skill set with digital modelling that I'd need a telescope to see it.  Another chap I know has most of the old NER in digital form which really is magnificent, but way beyond anything I could do.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

Turning to Coronation Scot, it is not a blue streamlined Stannier Pacific with go faster stripes that we should imagine, but a King or Castle,  lined green, copper-topped chimney and brass safety valve-cover, with a string of chocolate and cream 70 footers in tow, producing that magnificent and immortal Swindon exhaust beat.

 

This recording of Coronation Scot has an introduction in which the composer admits that the rhythm was taken from his regular journey from Paddington to Taunton!   

 

 

I'm not sure "The 5pm from Paddington" would have been such a hit. But I doubt the rhythm is far wrong - 4-cylinder engine, 60 ft rails.

 

I thought for a moment there was a reversed image in that sequence but on reflection it must be of 6229 on the North American tour.

 

Several of the images are of train W700, the crockery record breaking publicity run on which a particularly high speed was obtained and the quality of the permanent way demonstrated. The form of the streamlining was the outcome of several years of careful scientific work, at the National Physical Laboratory at Teddington, Middx, and also at the LMS Scientific Research Laboratory at Derby, in parallel with work done in Germany. Stanier's professional friendship with Richard Wagner (not that one) is not often discussed in the context of LMS and BR standard locomotive design. It's no accident that the fastest steam locomotive in the world - DR 05 002 - had streamlining rather close in form to that of the LMS engines.

[runs as required]

To those of a certain age the Coronation Scot was the signature tune to "Paul Temple" a Thames Valley amateur detective serial on Radio (&TV).

His assistant Steve (an archetypal foolish lass) always got trapped in a telephone booth in Maidenhead as the cliff hanger as the Coronation Scot playied us out (about to hit the points at Crewe too fast ?). 

I still have a picture of Brunel's "impossible flat brick arch" of Maidenhead bridge in my mind whenever I hear that music. Steve was played by Marjorie Westbury!.

dh

[Donw]

4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Indeed, our first thought, but a search of the club house produced no such nails.

 

For want of a nail ....

 

On the Topic That Should Not Be Mentioned (I thought we were discussing Star Wars), I feel the sudden absence in my life of an Irish grandparent. Anyone out there care to volunteer?

 

Alternatively, I prescribe attending a model railway exhibition as a host club member; there really is not time for reality, however dire, to intrude. 

 

Into each life some rain must fall, and presently there is no sign of pre-decimal precipitation. 

 

So, I prescribe a little early Grouping musical cheer....

 

 

This number dates from 1929 and is from a musical by composer Vivian Ellis, as I think is fairly well known, as is his Coronation Scot 

 

Turning to Coronation Scot, it is not a blue streamlined Stannier Pacific with go faster stripes that we should imagine, but a King or Castle,  lined green, copper-topped chimney and brass safety valve-cover, with a string of chocolate and cream 70 footers in tow, producing that magnificent and immortal Swindon exhaust beat.

 

This recording of Coronation Scot has an introduction in which the composer admits that the rhythm was taken from his regular journey from Paddington to Taunton!   

 

 

 

 

 

Well Stanier would have been familiar with GWR Star class locos. I have always wondered what would have been the results if Stanier had suceeded Churchward rather than Collett.

 

Don

[Compound2632]

31 minutes ago, Donw said:

 

I have always wondered what would have been the results if Stanier had suceeded Churchward rather than Collett.

 

 

I doubt it would have made any difference. Both men (like Wagner) were very able engineering project managers which is why they  were so well suited to their posts.

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, runs as required said:

To those of a certain age the Coronation Scot was the signature tune to "Paul Temple" a Thames Valley amateur detective serial on Radio (&TV).

His assistant Steve (an archetypal foolish lass) always got trapped in a telephone booth in Maidenhead as the cliff hanger as the Coronation Scot playied us out (about to hit the points at Crewe too fast ?). 

I still have a picture of Brunel's "impossible flat brick arch" of Maidenhead bridge in my mind whenever I hear that music. Steve was played by Marjorie Westbury!.

dh

 

A number of the Paul Temple episodes I've listened to on Radio 4 Plus (previously Radio 7) end in a rather hackneyed style...

 

Temple denounces the criminal and explains how clever he (Temple) has been

Suddenly...

"Look out!  He's got a gun!" and the baddy makes a break for it.

(All the cast make a hubbub)

Crash of breaking glass/squeal of car brakes/whatever and demise of villain!

 

Saves a bit of time bypassing due process, getting the plods to arrest the rotter and having to explain why an amateur 'tec ran rings about them.

 

 

[Northroader]

For ACTION you don’t go to some poncey upper class twit and his bird, instead off with Jock and Snowy to some really stirring music, although what Railway train would you apply it to?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F2eqX93umXo

 

[brack]

5 hours ago, Edwardian said:

I feel the sudden absence in my life of an Irish grandparent. Anyone out there care to volunteer?

Apparently living there for two years a wee while ago and having built models of their railways doesn't count, just in case anyone else was planning on asking the powers that be.

 

Ironically it probably does make me more irish than half their football players (several of whom hadn't been there until called up!).

[Donw]

Any points for one set of GGPs being Irish, probably explains why  they were Catholic on Mother's side.

 

Don

[runs as required]

3 hours ago, Northroader said:

For ACTION you don’t go to some poncey upper class twit and his bird, instead off with Jock and Snowy to some really stirring music, although what Railway train would you apply it to?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F2eqX93umXo

 

The penultimate train onto Bouch's Tay Bridge ?

dh

[Annie]

3 hours ago, Northroader said:

For ACTION you don’t go to some poncey upper class twit and his bird, instead off with Jock and Snowy to some really stirring music, although what Railway train would you apply it to?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F2eqX93umXo

 

Something in LNWR black  with 12 coaches coupled on in the teeth of a storm on the WCML. 

[Edwardian]

Re Stamford East goods shed ....

 

 

North Road goods shed, 1833, is said to be the pattern for all subsequent sheds in as much as it broke from the previous practice of loading road carts below rail level, adopting the now familiar arrangement of a single storey structure.  

 

[Compound2632]

If anything could tempt me into modelling such a flash upstart railway as the Great Northern it would be the quality of the buildings at Stamford.

[Old Gringo]

On 01/09/2019 at 10:24, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm not sure "The 5pm from Paddington" would have been such a hit. But I doubt the rhythm is far wrong - 4-cylinder engine, 60 ft rails.

 

I thought for a moment there was a reversed image in that sequence but on reflection it must be of 6229 on the North American tour.

 

Several of the images are of train W700, the crockery record breaking publicity run on which a particularly high speed was obtained and the quality of the permanent way demonstrated. The form of the streamlining was the outcome of several years of careful scientific work, at the National Physical Laboratory at Teddington, Middx, and also at the LMS Scientific Research Laboratory at Derby, in parallel with work done in Germany. Stanier's professional friendship with Richard Wagner (not that one) is not often discussed in the context of LMS and BR standard locomotive design. It's no accident that the fastest steam locomotive in the world - DR 05 002 - had streamlining rather close in form to that of the LMS engines.

 

"It's no accident that the fastest steam locomotive in the world - DR 05 002 - had streamlining rather close in form to that of the LMS engines"?

 

It is possibly true that DR 05 002 could have exceeded 125mph, but (AFAIK) unfortunately it was never proven to have exceeded that speed.

 

Equipped with 90 inch driving wheels, three cylinders, 284lb boiler pressure and a fifty square foot grate area, the Borsig built locomotive 05 002 achieved 125 mph on the level and IMO might well have been capable of more.  Why?  Because at 125, the driving wheels were revolving at 7.7 revolutions per second (460 rpm) and given that the cylinders and boiler could cope with greater speed, then the locomotive might well have surpassed 130 mph. (The 80 inch driving wheels of 'Mallard' flat out downhill were revolving at 8.8 rps (540 rpm) supplied with steam at 250 lb from a 41 square foot grate area..

 

However, there are other just as likely contenders for the tag of "the fastest steam locomotives in the world" and engines which achieved over 100 mph in regular service with over 600 tons trailing on the drawbar.

 

The 'Hiawatha' was introduced on the Milwaukee Road in 1935, first using giant streamlined 'Atlantic', locomotives, with 84 inch driving wheels and 300 lb pressure generated from a 69 sq. ft. grate.  Easily capable of 100 mph with huge loads, they are recorded as reaching 120 mph, when the scheduled demanded.

 

As the popularity of the 'Hiawatha' service increased, the Atlantics were replaced in 1938 by the F7 4-6-4s, again equipped with 84 inch drivers and 300 lb pressure from a 96 square foot grate.  Superb streamlined machines, the F7 was similar to the J3As of the New York Central, designed by Paul Keiffer and built by ALCO with 79 inch drivers to haul the famous 'Twentieth Century Limited.  One of the J3A locomotives was slipped to an equivalent speed of 164 mph (11.6 rps, 696 rpm).

 

At 120mph, the Milwaukee F7s would be running at 8rps (480rpm) and if pushed anywhere near the rps of the Norfolk & Western J class 4-8-4 which is 'claimed' to have reached 110 mph with 915 tons trailing on the 'Pocahontas', could have easily reached 135 mph.  But, by then steam was 'old technology' in the U.S.A., so why bother?

 

Magnificent machines, I often wish I had a time machine!

 

All the very best,

John.

 

Refs: World Steam in the Twentieth Century, E.S. Cox, 1969.

Modern Railways, March 1964, p.193, Cecil J. Allen.

[Compound2632]

As far as I'm aware, there is no properly authenticated high speed with the Milwaukee engines. Mallard's 126 mph is very questionable though 125 mph as an instantaneous maximum on a falling gradient is undoubted, though the locomotive broke in the process. DR 02 005 maintained 125 mph on the level over several consecutive kilometres - undoubtedly the better performance. 

 

The geography the WCML did not favour an attempt at a very high maximum speed with an LMS pacific. 

[Hroth]

3 hours ago, Annie said:

Something in LNWR black  with 12 coaches coupled on in the teeth of a storm on the WCML. 

 

Possibly a couple of Jumbos flogging up Shap...

[Old Gringo]

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

As far as I'm aware, there is no properly authenticated high speed with the Milwaukee engines. Mallard's 126 mph is very questionable though 125 mph as an instantaneous maximum on a falling gradient is undoubted, though the locomotive broke in the process. DR 02 005 maintained 125 mph on the level over several consecutive kilometres - undoubtedly the better performance. 

 

The geography the WCML did not favour an attempt at a very high maximum speed with an LMS pacific. 

 

Not wishing to spoil 'Castle Aching's Pre-Grouping ambience with too much Post Grouping excitement, I think it's only fair to qualify some of the performance data connected with the Milwaukee Road's trains.  They may not have been verified by men in suits and with dynamometer car readings, but these engines must have been right at the top of the performance ratings of steam power.

 

Here's a couple of paragraphs from an article published in 'Trains Annual' (editor Cecil J. Allen and which also included data from the well-travelled enthusiast Baron Vuillet );

 

"One night, as a test, the 'Olympian' and the 'Pioneer' sleeping car trains were amalgamated into one vast 26-car formation weighing 1,905 tons, which was accelerated by one of the 4-6-4s from rest to 70mph over 12 miles of level track."

 

"In 1942, No. 101 of this class, hauling a 14 coach train of 680 tons covered the 47.8 miles of the undulating Chicago-Milwaukee stretch in 27 min. 20 sec., at an average of 104.9 mph and another with 16 coaches of 780 tons, maintained an average of 100.5 mph for 62 miles on end."

 

"Mr. Eric Crickmay, an experienced recorder, once came through from St. Paul to Chicago on the 'Morning Hiawatha' with No. 100 hauling nine cars of 430 tons tare (465 tons gross) and noted 148 miles of the journey covered at 80 mph or over and 56 miles at between 100 and 106 mph " (Edit: Total mileage St. Paul to Chicago 410.5 miles, Schedule 390 mins.)

 

Bringing the topic back to Pre-Grouping railways in Britain; these American exploits cannot match the incredible performance of the LNWR Jumbo, 'Hardwicke', flying up and over Shap at an average speed of 67.2 mph.  Indeed Driver Robinson & Fireman Wolstencroft must have been exceptional men, clinging on to the footplate of No.790 as it raced towards Carlisle, on the night of August 22-23, 1895.

 

Lots more steamy stuff out there!

 

All the best, John.

 

Refs: Trains Annual, 1954, p.46

See also: Loco Profile 26, Brian Reed, 1972 and 'The Hiawatha Story, Jim Scribbins, Kalmbach Publishing, Milwaukee,1970.

[Edwardian]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

If anything could tempt me into modelling such a flash upstart railway as the Great Northern it would be the quality of the buildings at Stamford.

 

If one were not swayed by its other merits, one might say the same about the Midland

 

The Syston & Peterborough Railway's 1840s station at Stamford is a gem crying out to be modelled. 

 

As a Tudor revival station of 1848, it may be compared with Richmond station, seen some pages earlier, which saw a different architect, working for quite different company in another part of the country employ the same revivalist style at the same period (1847).