ordsall chord

[Oldddudders]

Please could we get the terminology right.  This should be known as the Ordsall Curve.  A chord is a straight line between two points on a circle or a curve. The diameter of a circle is a special case of chord which passes through the centre of the circle.  Network Rail's continued usage of chord is simply incorrect and confusing.

Peterfgf.

If NR choose to call it thus, that is its name. They will own the facility. If they wanted to call it Edith, that would be just as valid.

[Reorte]

Entirely out of curiosity why is the link going in this side, when there used to be a (longer) route between Picadilly and Victoria to the east? Does my guess that it wouldn't serve as many routes as well, on top of putting more pressure on the already busy east side of Picadilly have any truth to it?

[Mike Storey]

In conjunction with the Northern Hub works, theoretical capacity is increased, not just by four paths per hour, but from 48 carriages per hour (12 x 4 car) to 128 carriages per hour (16 x 8 car). A 178% increase in capacity between Oxford Road, Man Picc and beyond. There aren't many single schemes which achieve that!

[woodenhead]

Entirely out of curiosity why is the link going in this side, when there used to be a (longer) route between Picadilly and Victoria to the east? Does my guess that it wouldn't serve as many routes as well, on top of putting more pressure on the already busy east side of Picadilly have any truth to it?

Trains from the East would have to reverse at Victoria and the point of the Ordsall Curve is to avoid reversals

[woodenhead]

In conjunction with the Northern Hub works, theoretical capacity is increased, not just by four paths per hour, but from 48 carriages per hour (12 x 4 car) to 128 carriages per hour (16 x 8 car). A 178% increase in capacity between Oxford Road, Man Picc and beyond. There aren't many single schemes which achieve that!

Oxford Rd can handle 8 car trains just not on all platforms and Piccadilly certainly can, so the increase is not quite 178% but still big.

[woodenhead]

Perhaps the Ordsall chord should have been elevated a bit more to retain the museum link and provide flying junctions at both ends. It will be hard to update later.

I don't think there is much call for flying junctions around Ordsall.

 

The museum link isn't what all the fuss was about, it was hardly used though it has curtailed the short run of the replica steam engines in the museum.  The engineer kicking up the fuss is concerned about the historic Stephenson Bridge which I understand isn't being demolished and will be highlighted after the works.

[Mike Storey]

Oxford Rd can handle 8 car trains just not on all platforms and Piccadilly certainly can, so the increase is not quite 178% but still big.

 

You are right - I forgot that two Ox Rd platforms can handle 8 cars! So let's say that currently, 6 x 4 car plus 6 x 8 car = 72 carriages per hour. New capacity 16 x 8 car = 128 carriages per hour. So a 78% theoretical increase in capacity, give or take the number of existing 8 cars that actually run. Not bad.

[Suzie]

Entirely out of curiosity why is the link going in this side, when there used to be a (longer) route between Picadilly and Victoria to the east? Does my guess that it wouldn't serve as many routes as well, on top of putting more pressure on the already busy east side of Picadilly have any truth to it?

Both Victoria and Piccadilly can be served as through stations so trains from the east don't have to terminate at Victoria and can continue through to Piccadilli and the airport for example, and trains from the south can continue through Piccadilly to Victoria (not much scope for going beyond now with Bury and Oldham served by trams!)

 

It should save a lot of people having to hop on to trams at Piccadilly or Victoria to cross the city.

[31A]

Both Victoria and Piccadilly can be served as through stations so trains from the east don't have to terminate at Victoria and can continue through to Piccadilli and the airport for example, and trains from the south can continue through Piccadilly to Victoria (not much scope for going beyond now with Bury and Oldham served by trams!)

 

It should save a lot of people having to hop on to trams at Piccadilly or Victoria to cross the city.

 

And trains such as the various Trans Pennine Express services from the North East to Manchester Airport will no longer have to occupy terminal platforms at Piccadilly while the crew change ends, and then use a path across the station throat for a second time.

[woodenhead]

Both Victoria and Piccadilly can be served as through stations so trains from the east don't have to terminate at Victoria and can continue through to Piccadilli and the airport for example, and trains from the south can continue through Piccadilly to Victoria (not much scope for going beyond now with Bury and Oldham served by trams!)

 

It should save a lot of people having to hop on to trams at Piccadilly or Victoria to cross the city.

I suppose trains from Hazel Grove/Crewe & Stoke could continue through to Victoria serving the west & north of the City and taking people who would otherwise have to get a tram off that network.

 

Likewise commuters coming in from the East get more trains to Victoria.

 

I wondered at one time if they would think of bringing the route off Trafford Park Euroterminal to Container base up to passenger train standard and allow the local trains that reverse at the old Throstles Nest Junctions to provide a mainline connection to the Trafford Centre.

[lmsforever]

Whats  the situation with the time waster who seems to have the ear of a judge surely it about time they just built the thing and let him watch a bit of important infrastructure be built?

[Derekstuart]

I am interested how you would implement such an idea.

 

For the best part of 1,000 years, anyone in this Country has had the right to have his or her grievance heard by a Judge of the appropriate level.

 

Supposing someone wanted to demolish your house/school/pub/workplace/ historically important woods to build a factory. You might not like that but find your protests are ignored. What do you do? You apply to a Court for an injunction to stop it, giving your reasons why. To those people affected by the proposed demolition it is the most important thing in the world, to the rest of us- who cares?

Unfortunately the ultimate arbiters of disputes will only work if they hear both sides, consider the law and then rule on it. It would fall apart if it was suffixed with "....providing lmsforever thinks it is worthwhile."

 

I despair that people have so little grasp of the way in which our Country operates.

 

Whats  the situation with the time waster who seems to have the ear of a judge surely it about time they just built the thing and let him watch a bit of important infrastructure be built?

[woodenhead]

Not sure he can be called a time waster but he certainly appears to be someone with an axe to grind.

 

The problem as I see it is where does protection of heritage end and needs of the current people begin when somewhere in the middle is a commercial undertaking trying to get the best return.

[Derekstuart]

If the commercial undertaking has more money than the heritage project- it wins. (this is an example). If heritage has more money than commercial undertaking- it wins (I could give local examples where heritage organisations have put in place the most bizarre preservation orders just because they can).

 

But you make a very good point and that is why High Court Judges are paid so much money.

The problem as I see it is where does protection of heritage end and needs of the current people begin when somewhere in the middle is a commercial undertaking trying to get the best return.

[Reorte]

Not sure he can be called a time waster but he certainly appears to be someone with an axe to grind.

 

The problem as I see it is where does protection of heritage end and needs of the current people begin when somewhere in the middle is a commercial undertaking trying to get the best return.

The line is where society decides it should be, and the means of doing that is by, amongst other things, courts and judges. Obviously protection doesn't mean keeping everything ever made exactly as it was, and we're not really talking about needs here either (food, water, shelter), so it all comes down to, as I've said before, what people really value. Personally speaking, as much as it would be nice to keep the museum link, the case seems far more convincing for the chord, but that really is just an opinion, even if it's widely shared. Ditto for whatever economic and practical benefits it brings.

[ColinK]

To me the Orsall Curve/chord is really the cut price solution. The proper answer was planned many years ago and was the Picc - Vic tunnel, or in modern terminology, Crossrail for Manchester. It would have provided a direct line in a tunnel under Manchester City Centre between Piccadilly and Victoria stations. Fast and direct, just what the passenger wants.

[Derekstuart]

"The line is where society decides it should be"

I live not that far away from the proposed course of HS2- but far enough away not to be affected by it. Local "society" (whatever that means) is firmly against it. Further afield people are at best ambivalent towards it. Business (apart from those few companies that will really benefit from its construction) aren't overly interested.

 

Yet it is going ahead.

 

The idea that society decides is, I think, quite nice but diametrically opposite reality.

[Reorte]

I don't want this thread to turn into another HS2 discussion so all I'll say is that perhaps I'll amend it to "the line should be where society decides it should be", rather than implying that's where it is, and leave it at that (since it's conveniently nebulous enough to not really mean anything much, you could write books on the subject, but I'll cowardly stop there).

[Mike Storey]

If the commercial undertaking has more money than the heritage project- it wins. (this is an example). If heritage has more money than commercial undertaking- it wins (I could give local examples where heritage organisations have put in place the most bizarre preservation orders just because they can).

 

But you make a very good point and that is why High Court Judges are paid so much money.

 

You refer to the Planning Consent in which a listed structure is material, which would be a key part of the compulsory purchase order process, or in this case, Transport & Works Act order. A commercial undertaking is incapable of pursuing a CPO or Transport and Works Act order unless government, local or national, has decided that the development has strategic importance "for the public benefit" and that importance outweighs other considerations. In any event, disturbance of a Grade 1 listed structure is referred to heritage England and to the Secretary of State whose department, in this case, agreed with the local authority in Manchester who support the scheme. Appeals against such decisions have to be made on matters of law and not opinion as regards the status of an individual structure. That the gentleman concerned has been able to prolong his appeals this far is unusual.

 

In the UK, people live under Representative Democracy - your elected representatives make these decisions on your behalf. That is how "society" acts in the UK. You don't like their actions, you vote for someone else at the next opportunity. The Law is there to ensure the rules have been followed.

[Derekstuart]

Mike, I think that perhaps you have become accustomed to the French system with its more honourable demarcation between politics and business.

 

In Britain now (my town has had an example that's recently been in the National news) has had a serious issue of politics and business becoming a little too close. As a matter of fact a few years back medieval buildings were demolished at the behest of a developer.

 

Yet locally a couple bought a derelict former farm house and rebuilt it- because they used "common" roof truss design instead of Queen (Anne) truss- there was no original roof to copy- they were made to rebuild the whole lot, couldn't afford it and ended up having to give the house to one of the quangos (english heritage I believe) who then did SFA with it anyway.

If only it still worked in Britain the way you describe. I regret that I cannot comment more on your voting concept due to politics rules in this forum.

 

As for laws- I am all for following well drafted laws that apply equally to all. The problem is that they DON'T apply equally to all.

[phil-b259]

To me the Orsall Curve/chord is really the cut price solution. The proper answer was planned many years ago and was the Picc - Vic tunnel, or in modern terminology, Crossrail for Manchester. It would have provided a direct line in a tunnel under Manchester City Centre between Piccadilly and Victoria stations. Fast and direct, just what the passenger wants.

Given how much it's going to cost I hardly think 'cut price' is an accurate label.

 

People need to remember what the Chord is for - namely to allow TransPennine services to serve Manchester Airport without blocking up terminal platforms at Piccadilly or, more importantly blocking the whole station throat while the weave from north to south to get to the correct lines. Yes it may not be a particularly direct or fast way of connecting Victoria and Piccadilly stations - but that's not why it's being built in the first place.

 

Posters also need to remember that the Ordsal Curve is to be accompanied by two new platforms on a new viaduct at Piccadilly, giving two through platforms in each direction, while the platforms and viaduct at Oxford Road will be extended / widened to complement it. (Note it's not the two through lines that are the limiting factor, it's the platform dwell times - hence the expansion at Piccadilly / Oxford Road and down south, the new Borough Market viaduct is double track yet will feed 4 platforms at London Bridge and Waterloo East).

 

As for the Pic - Vic tunnel, as far as I know it was designed to link the Bury (including a relaid section of track closed by Beaching to serve Bolton) with the lines coming into Piccadilly from the south. Well the Bury Line is now part of the very successful Metrolink (which also provides the direct Victoria - Piccadilly link envisaged back in the 70s) while Bolton (along with many other destinations NW of Manchester will benefit from the upgrades along the Oxford Road corridor.

[Reorte]

Posters also need to remember that the Ordsal Curve is to be accompanied by two new platforms on a new viaduct at Piccadilly, giving two through platforms in each direction

That's the bit I'm really looking forward to (and I'll be quite interested in seeing how it's done). Should make things so much better there.

[PenrithBeacon]

To me the Orsall Curve/chord is really the cut price solution ...

 

Fast and direct, just what the passenger wants.

Disagree with the first sentence and the taxpayer has a say too in the second. Personally I think the Ordsall Curve is the right solution and a Mancunian crossrail is completely unaffordable.

 

Regards

[woodenhead]

That's the bit I'm really looking forward to (and I'll be quite interested in seeing how it's done). Should make things so much better there.

Apart from the hell we will have whilst they do the work - those through platforms are very heavily used.  This will be our London Bridge redevelopment equivalent

 

Disagree with the first sentence and the taxpayer has a say too in the second. Personally I think the Ordsall Curve is the right solution and a Mancunian crossrail is completely unaffordable.

 

Regards

Mancunians don't need a soft southern Jessie tunnel, we do it above the ground in the biting wind and rain  But you're right, a tunnel is an expensive solution to a simple problem as the space exists in Salford to create the curve.  London isn't so very fortunate to have waste land hanging around waiting on redevelopment.

[woodenhead]

There actually was a ready made reversal route for Manchester Piccadilly along the Fallowfield Loop from Fairfield to Throstles Nest Junction in Trafford Park.

 

However, it wouldn't have had the connection with North Manchester and Salford, also it's been built over, filled in and finally partially handed over to Metrolink since it closed so the Ordsall Curve it is.