Hornby's financial updates to the Stock Market

[Dunsignalling]

But what's needed is enough to enable children to progress from the toy which provides a few hours entertainment over several months, to the hobby of a lifetime. So yes, the vague blob mentioned is a starting point - but if Hornby want sales they have to have more which children/parents (and hard-up adult modellers) can buy after the initial set.

 

In my case, my first train was a 101 tank, three 4-wheel coaches and a few wagons. Then after that I was looking out for other GWR locos and rolling stock to go with them. 

In the vast majority of cases, I don't think there is a seamless (or direct) progression.

 

Having been "infected" with the model railway bug in childhood/early teens, many (most?) of us soon moved onto other hobbies (girls/motorbikes/beer etc.) followed by more serious career and family pursuits that generally "eat" the time we might otherwise devote to a hobby. Many will, during that time, pass on the bug to their offspring, most of whom will repeat the pattern. It is only when these other demands ease off a bit (often in our forties or early fifties) that many resume their interest in model railways and take it further than before.

 

In my youth, there was no need for a "Stage Two", we just moved on from 0-6-0s to 'Winston Churchill' or 'Britannia' from the same sources. Those who stayed with the hobby into adulthood took up kit-building. Nowadays, there is undoubtedly a need for an intermediate stage between 'Smokey Joe' and fully detailed complex models that wouldn't survive intact for ten minutes in the hands of an average seven-year-old but I also consider that moving from basic 0-4-0s to slightly less basic 0-6-0s is not something the same seven year old would instantly recognise as progress!

 

Hornby's Railroad range is what should be providing this step but it has never been consistently defined, though main-line celebrity locos such as 'Tornado' and 'Duke of Gloucester', that many keen youngsters will have seen in action, are exactly what I would want were I back in their place.

 

You may regard these as too expensive for the market you describe, but, in comparison with the electronic gadgetry eagerly (or reluctantly) snapped up by today's parents for their offspring, they really don't look it.

 

We should take care not to confuse the wants of young beginners with those of skint / tight / less discerning adults; I suspect they are considerably more savvy than that. The main thing is to plant the seed; many will walk away but quite a lot will return in later life when they have the time, space and funds to enjoy the hobby to the full.

 

John

Edited March 3, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[jonny777]

I also had a Dublo 3-rail layout for Christmas in the 1950s; but I believe what had me hooked more permanently was, I could be taken to the local station and watch the trains. If there was not a through train expected at the time, there would invariably be some shunting going on in the goods yard. I didn't even have to do that if I went to one of my grandparents, as the railway ran past the bottom of their garden.

 

Therefore I had a regular real time example of what my train set represented.

 

I'm not sure that todays children have the same connection, as the railways are not such a part of everyday life; and even if they do live near one, is the sight of identical multiple unit trains, passing by at regular intervals, sufficient to plant the railway bug in enough youngsters to make targetting them with specific models worthwhile for manufacturers?

[rovex]

Does anyone know when in March, Hornby is going to breach its banking covenants? 

 

That is when is D Day?

 

Dean

[Forester]

Hornby Website this morning:

 

"Visit your local model shop. Find yours today"

 

 

You couldn't make it up!

[Andy Y]

Hornby Website this morning:

 

"Visit your local model shop. Find yours today"

 

 

You couldn't make it up!

 

'Find' as in scroll through 21 pages of an alphabetical list. About as user friendly as picking up a Yellow Pages to find an R186.

 

[Ian Hargrave]

Hornby Website this morning:

 

"Visit your local model shop. Find yours today"

 

 

You couldn't make it up!

Moving on then from " Direct Sell "......we revisit our grass roots ? Oh well.....what goes round comes round. ''Plus ca change,c'est last meme sh## " as they say in Kent. Fair takes your breath away. What next ? Donald Trump for CEO,maybe....or did I misread that.....Donald Who......Duck ? Edited March 3, 2016 by Ian Hargrave

[Ian Hargrave]

Does anyone know when in March, Hornby is going to breach its banking covenants? 

 

That is when is D Day?

 

Dean

 

Be afraid for what you wish....

[4630]

. 

Edited November 15, 2016 by 4630

[Clearwater]

Loan docs usually specify calculation dates which would normally be linked to accounting dates, eg financial year end, half year etc. There will be an obligation on Hornby to deliver figures to the bank within a certain number of days of the calculation date. The bank will then need to makes its decision within a set time frame. Understandably borrowers do not like having a sword of Damocles hanging over them for an unknown time period so unless the bank calls the default, it will be waived within a certain timeframe. Basically it forces the bank to make its decision.

 

Dates are usually picked in line with accounting periods as it takes a degree of subjectivity out of the debate - this is the actual position at 31/3 (or is that 3/31 ) and verified by an independent third party.

 

There may also be a covenant obligation the borrower to notify the bank over "potential event of default" - again this is not liked by borrowers as it is is debatable point what might be a default. If there is such a clause, and we don't have that information, the clock may already be ticking.

 

In practice, the impact of these contractual terms is to get to the negotiating table quicker and to define the parties' position. To use an apt metaphor, if you can see the train wreck coming, you want to be able to act in advance to do something about it. Given H is listed, I'd expect them to give some sort of trading update at year end followed by a more fulsome update in their annual accounts when they should have concluded negotiations with the bank.

 

David

[The Stationmaster]

I also had a Dublo 3-rail layout for Christmas in the 1950s; but I believe what had me hooked more permanently was, I could be taken to the local station and watch the trains. If there was not a through train expected at the time, there would invariably be some shunting going on in the goods yard. I didn't even have to do that if I went to one of my grandparents, as the railway ran past the bottom of their garden.

 

Therefore I had a regular real time example of what my train set represented.

 

I'm not sure that todays children have the same connection, as the railways are not such a part of everyday life; and even if they do live near one, is the sight of identical multiple unit trains, passing by at regular intervals, sufficient to plant the railway bug in enough youngsters to make targetting them with specific models worthwhile for manufacturers?

 

I think you're getting very near the nub of it for many people - they associate what they take an interest in for modelling with something that interests them in real life.  Not that this is an absolute truism of course because other things can just as easily fire imagination and interest as standing on the platform at their local station.  But I suspect that seeing something in real life probably has a bigger impact on most youngsters than seeing it on tv or in a book.  And this is why in my view the heritage/leisure railways play such an important and rather unusual part because (and I still maintain this view) for many youngsters such a railway is likely to be their first and most frequent acquaintance with, and chance to travel, on a train.

Equally judging by very recent and some past events a lot of otherwise disinterested people will flock to the lineside to see 'Flying Scotsman' or Tornado' shoot past creating a very powerful visual and aural impression as it does so.   My offspring are both now adults (at least in years if not always in behaviour) and they were very unusual among their school fellows in having travelled on a train and in wanting 'a trainset' and I seriously doubt that has changed very much in more recent years.

[Clearwater]

I agree Mike - it's why like it or not Thomas is so important. Equally, the Harry Potter Hogearts express touches public consciousness in a way a debate about the CRE or ACE doesn't. The trick for the manufacturers is to defray cost for the enthusiast market into these products without making them too expensive

 

I commented elsewhere that when a steam charter came through one of our local stations; someone had put the information onto the local mother and child Facebook group, the time the train was due. At c10am on a December morning, there must have been 20+ parents and children to see the black 5 pass through. The comment from one of the father's to me was how impressed he was with the engine - bigger and more powerful than he expected. Shows the importance of getting the WCRC situation resolved as well

 

David

[Pacific231G]

I also had a Dublo 3-rail layout for Christmas in the 1950s; but I believe what had me hooked more permanently was, I could be taken to the local station and watch the trains. If there was not a through train expected at the time, there would invariably be some shunting going on in the goods yard. I didn't even have to do that if I went to one of my grandparents, as the railway ran past the bottom of their garden.

 

Therefore I had a regular real time example of what my train set represented.

 

I'm not sure that todays children have the same connection, as the railways are not such a part of everyday life; and even if they do live near one, is the sight of identical multiple unit trains, passing by at regular intervals, sufficient to plant the railway bug in enough youngsters to make targetting them with specific models worthwhile for manufacturers?

My (almost) lifelong love or railways was similarly created, mainly by a grandfather who was a signalman (and whose box I visited when I was very young before he retired) and a father whose own father, who I never knew, had been a stationmaste. Between them hem many of my walks and outings ended up at railway location. Neither though was particularly interested in models so I think my Hornby Dublo layout was what planted the seeds of my interest in model railways. I thnk I was lucky in that I had a whole railway to control and operate; it even had points (all three of them!) operated via wire in tube by a lever frame- just like grandad's signalbox (well for a four to seven year old it was). Using a Dutchess to shunt a few wagons may not have been very authentic but I was never that interested in just running it round and round.  I think it also led me to be more interested in the railway as a whole and, though I love the atmosphere, presence and sheer drama of steam locos, motive power and rolling stock has only been part of the story.

 

I've noticed at a lot of exhibitions recently an increasing emphasis on "model trains" with signs to second halls often saying "more trains". but surely if we just wanted to watch model trains a bare loop would be enough so how do you get beginners and youngsters in particular interested in  the far richer diet of model railways as a whole. 

I wouldn't go back to a restaurant that just plonked a piece of meat, however good, on my plate without any vegetables or potatoes and a decent glass of wine but maybe that's a but like the focus on model trains rather than model railways.   

Edited March 3, 2016 by Pacific231G

[DonnyRailMan]

Moving on then from " Direct Sell "......we revisit our grass roots ? Oh well.....what goes round comes round. ''Plus ca change,c'est last meme sh## " as they say in Kent. Fair takes your breath away. What next ? Donald Trump for CEO,maybe....or did I misread that.....Donald Who......Duck ?

 

Could be worse George W Bush LOL. 

[Trains4U]

'Find' as in scroll through 21 pages of an alphabetical list. About as user friendly as picking up a Yellow Pages to find an R186.

 

 

To be fair, you can search by postcode/town or by county

 

 

It's nice to see that Hornby are reacting to the issues,  - I said before that things were showing signs of improvement in terms of relationships with retailers, lets hope it continues!

 

Now if they could get that sort of exposure on TV again...  (Santander's scalextric/Mclaren advert did wonders too)

Edited March 3, 2016 by Trains4U

[Hroth]

'Find' as in scroll through 21 pages of an alphabetical list. About as user friendly as picking up a Yellow Pages to find an R186.

 

In those far off, fuzzy days, the phone call probably cost as much as the signal box did.  It would probably have been cheaper to get his dad to order one by post from Hattons..... 

[Phil Parker]

I am on the whole a little suspicious of wish lists and big locomotives and wonder whether an obsession with enlarged digital photos is necessarily a good thing.

 

Large tender locomotives are attractive to the collector who can cheerfully spend twice my weekly grocery shop on one, but for most people and more importantly younger people, are they really what they want?

 

I have a shelf layout running the length of one wall. I have a few tender engines which get a run out from time to time, shuffling up and down as I once saw Tornado do at Locomotion, but really it works best with four and six coupled locos and usually tank engines at that. I'd quite like more variety, but big expensive tender locos are what tend to be produced and there the age factor kicks in.

 

From reading reaction to changes within the hobby, I'd suggest you are a very untypical modeller, at least on-line. Very few seem to be buying just for a layout, most are grabbing everything that comes out.

 

I recall reading when the Bachmann price rises occured someone saying they bought 5-6 locos a month and now could only buy 3-4. Was there a massive layout awaiting these? Almost certainly not - you'd need a pretty big room to build anything that needs 60 locos a year. My guess is a big cupboard. While this might be an extreem example, the poster isn't alone.

 

Buy just for the sort of branch line most have space to build and you probably need less than 6 locos and those, as you say, will be smaller 0-6-0 types.

 

Manufacturers need to sell product so they make the sort of big locos that excite the buyers. Nothing wrong with that.

[bigherb]

'Find' as in scroll through 21 pages of an alphabetical list. About as user friendly as picking up a Yellow Pages to find an R186.

You could use the postcode search or list by county.

[Andy Y]

You could use the postcode search or list by county.

 

Yup. I accept I was wrong to punch on that one. When I'd last looked it was just a list without much useability. I think they'll have to do quite a bit more than just a stockist index to recover their position with retailers though.

[Caledonian]

From reading reaction to changes within the hobby, I'd suggest you are a very untypical modeller, at least on-line. Very few seem to be buying just for a layout, most are grabbing everything that comes out.

 

I recall reading when the Bachmann price rises occured someone saying they bought 5-6 locos a month and now could only buy 3-4. Was there a massive layout awaiting these? Almost certainly not - you'd need a pretty big room to build anything that needs 60 locos a year. My guess is a big cupboard. While this might be an extreem example, the poster isn't alone.

 

Buy just for the sort of branch line most have space to build and you probably need less than 6 locos and those, as you say, will be smaller 0-6-0 types.

 

Manufacturers need to sell product so they make the sort of big locos that excite the buyers. Nothing wrong with that.

 

Ah, I'm not "buying just for a layout". That's just a very long shunting plank - stretched inglenook - and far from limiting my collection accordingly the scenery has deliberately been kept sparse enough to ring the changes according to mood; today is Oxfordshire ironstone with L&Y pugs and a Sentinel. Next week is liable to switch back to the Caledonian Railway with a "borrowed" ROD bearing C.R on the tender, and a re-numbered Johnson 1F exchanging stuff at Carlisle [a rotten excuse but it works], and then for other days I have Austerity tanks working the Wemyss Private Railway or Backworth Colliery [different liveries different wagons] and so on it goes. What I'm arguing is that if Hornby genuinely wants to reach out to younger people than me they need to be offering some more attractive small engines.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Caledonian

[Godfrey Glyn]

Yup. I accept I was wrong to punch on that one. When I'd last looked it was just a list without much useability. I think they'll have to do quite a bit more than just a stockist index to recover their position with retailers though.

 

I agree with you Andy but let us be hopeful that this is the first sign of a fundamental change in Hornby's recent relationship with the retailers. I note that the website prices no longer show the discounted price for members of the Hornby Club. Given a bit of time, whilst they work to secure their future with their most important 'partner' - the bank, they may even start to talk to the media again! Fingers crossed.

[Ozexpatriate]

I note that the website prices no longer show the discounted price for members of the Hornby Club.

It does for me - but only when logged in. Perhaps you weren't logged in for that session.

 

Highlighting the retailers on the front page of the website is a positive sign. 

[davknigh]

(big snip) What I'm arguing is that if Hornby genuinely wants to reach out to younger people than me they need to be offering some more attractive small engines.

Well if the froth that has accompanied the announcement of the Peckett is any indication then they may be on the right track. Now to see if they last long enough to get it to market...

 

Cheers,

 

David

[Caledonian]

Well if the froth that has accompanied the announcement of the Peckett is any indication then they may be on the right track. Now to see if they last long enough to get it to market...

 

Cheers,

 

David

 

One can but hope, and I still think that a sizeable expansion of the range of 0-6-0s available in the Railroad range could be far more productive than high-end stuff costing well over £100 a pop. The Jinty obviously doesn't bear comparison to the Bachmann one but it's only about £30, looks the part andis  perfectly serviceable if run on a layout - I maintain a "ghost fleet" of three in plain black livery simply to bulk out the good stuff - and there has to be scope for more cheap and cheerful bodies of similar workmanlike quality even if they're not fit for super-detail digital photography rather than use.

[Coryton]

One can but hope, and I still think that a sizeable expansion of the range of 0-6-0s available in the Railroad range could be far more productive than high-end stuff costing well over £100 a pop. The Jinty obviously doesn't bear comparison to the Bachmann one but it's only about £30, looks the part andis  perfectly serviceable if run on a layout - I maintain a "ghost fleet" of three in plain black livery simply to bulk out the good stuff - and there has to be scope for more cheap and cheerful bodies of similar workmanlike quality even if they're not fit for super-detail digital photography rather than use.

 

I think they're more like £40 at full price now.

 

I've been rather put off them because the one I have tends to stall on my imperfect trackwork. Yes I should probably do a better job at laying track, but most other locomotives, including the Railroad/train set 0-4-0s do much better...

[Caledonian]

I think they're more like £40 at full price now.

 

I've been rather put off them because the one I have tends to stall on my imperfect trackwork. Yes I should probably do a better job at laying track, but most other locomotives, including the Railroad/train set 0-4-0s do much better...

 

 Ah well, its a while since I bought them, but the point remains that [the odd duff one aside] its a good robust mechanism, looks the part and above all is affordable. Even at £40 its not very much more expensive than a newly released game for say the WII or X-Box, which is where the competition lies if you're trying to attract the younger generations.