BR 20T Coke Hopper diagram 1/150

[macgeordie]

I was asked a while back if I would have a go at these wagons as a commission as there didn't seem to be a decent kit or rtr version available and I wanted some for my own layout anyway to run as the 'Barrow empties' train. Needless to say as soon as I finished the first test build Hornby announced that they are going to do one. Having got so far down the line though I thought I might as well continue with it and the photos below are from the second test build. I've just sent off for another test etch as I want to increase the amount of internal detail on the hopper. As I have said above, I want to run them as empties so the internal detail will be very visible.

 

 

 

 

 

I still need to fit the handrails and the little hooks which are on the underside of the solebar to complete this build. 

Nobody seems to know the real reason why these little hooks were fitted to the Coke Hoppers, but they all seem to have them.

Here is a photo showing them on Paul Bartlets website   http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brcoke/h216f6975#h20fb8bcb

I have never seen a picture of one with a tarpaulin fitted so that is not likely to be what they were for and they look far too weak to be used for moving the wagon about by rope or chain, and anyway, why have one each side of the axlebox. I wondered if they were to hang a cover over the axlebox to stop dirt getting in, but I have never seen a picture of a cover fitted either apart from the fact they are quite a long way apart.

If anybody knows the real reason for the hooks, please let me know, I am intrigued.

 

Ian

[Horsetan]

....as soon as I finished the first test build Hornby announced that they are going to do one. ....

 

Maybe there's a mole in your workshop, leaking information to Hornby 

[Guest bri.s]

Lovely work ,no idea about the hooks I'm afraid but very nice looking wagon

 

Brian

[iak]

Whooosh.

Now that is one pretty tasty beastie...

Shame about Hornby stealing ones thunder Ian.

Mind, it could be a real mutts lunch when it appears and be a pig to convert toEM/P4. Maybe you could have a useful beastie after all.

Edited February 23, 2016 by iak

[CloggyDog]

Oh I say... that's lovely!

 

I have a thing for the 20t cokes, having done around 25-30 of the old 3H plastic kit, including all 4* major variants, plus all the small variables. It's a nice moulding, but is long OOP** and can be a pig to build (especially the chassis) and it's rather fragile for exhibition layout use...

* raved sides and ends, raved sides and solid ends, raved sides and solid ends and vacuum-piped, solid sides and solid ends. There were also the Pensnett conversions (deeper hopper chutes, from memory) and the cut-down sand hoppers (with fixed tarpaulin rail) and the original LMS/PO builds had a strengthening plate/strap across each side. And, of course, the one-off vacuum-braked example.

**oddly enough, the s/h price of these has come down since the Hornby announcement

 

I was considering replacing the worse ones in my fleet with the upcoming Hornby RTR one, but this gives a viable alternative. I did also try the Steam and Things brass kit from Australia, but it's quite expensive when you factor shipping/customs in, plus I had a couple of issues with the design and build of the kit.

 

Are you doing just the 1/150s, or might 151s and 152s be in the offing at some point?? And what might be a likely price??

 

As for the hooks - nope, no idea either and I don't recall seeing mention of their use in the few published sources. I do know they didn't always mould fully on the 3H kit and them that did were easily broken.

 

Lots of 3H modified ones on the ever-useful em1970s site and prototype pics on Paul Bartlett's website. MRC Datafile on 20t Cokes was in the August 1983 issue of Model Railway Constructor

Edited February 23, 2016 by CloggyDeux

[Arthur]

 

I still need to fit the handrails and the little hooks which are on the underside of the solebar to complete this build. 

Nobody seems to know the real reason why these little hooks were fitted to the Coke Hoppers, but they all seem to have them.

 

I wondered if they were to hang a cover over the axlebox to stop dirt getting in, but I have never seen a picture of a cover fitted either apart from the fact they are quite a long way apart.

If anybody knows the real reason for the hooks, please let me know, I am intrigued.

 

Ian

Certainly a possibility, coke is friable and is easily crushed to a fine abrasive grit. Handling is kept to a minimum whenever possible.

[Kenton]

Oh what lovely, shiny brass with lots and lots of rivets

 

But spoilt somewhat by that prototypical tension lock coupling!!

 

Can I hear cries of "what about in 7mm?"

[griffgriff]

Oh what lovely, shiny brass with lots and lots of rivets

But spoilt somewhat by that prototypical tension lock coupling!!

Can I hear cries of "what about in 7mm?"

You want to see a 7mm tension lock 8)

[hmrspaul]

 

Can I hear cries of "what about in 7mm?"

 

Why? Available at M & M http://www.modelrailwaywagons.co.uk/Hopper%20Page.htm

 

Paul

 

PS I've always thought the hooks were for rope haulage through unloading facilities. It shouldn't take too much to get a loaded wagon rolling.

 

PPS The MRC article has one of the very earliest colour photographs I had published, and I was very pleased because, although taken from a public road, the BSC security thought they should be able to destroy the film! Amusingly the works is now a tourist site.

[macgeordie]

Oh what lovely, shiny brass with lots and lots of rivets

 

But spoilt somewhat by that prototypical tension lock coupling!!

 

Can I hear cries of "what about in 7mm?"

The NEM pocket and thus the coupling is a separate item, if you don't need it, don't fit it, just fit a Smiths operational coupling instead.

 

Alan

I probably will do the diagram 151 and 152 as well as there is not a great deal of work altering the drawing but I need to get this one perfected first. The piped version just needs an additional set of gussets adding to the etch with a suitably sized hole (proabaly 0.9mm wire size) for the pipe itself.

Kit price is probably going to be between 25 and 30 quid for a full kit, it just depends upon the final cost of the etch, there is quite a lot on the etch already, it is not far off A4 size.

 

Ian

Edited February 23, 2016 by macgeordie

[iak]

Ooh I feel a wibbly wallet coming on...

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

The Hornby version can only ever be a poor relation Ian....moulded plastic is no solution to wagons with a plethora of fine sections/rivet detail.

 

Congratulations on more excellent work

 

Dave

Edited February 23, 2016 by Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71

[iak]

Oh I say... that's lovely!

 

I have a thing for the 20t cokes, having done around 25-30 of the old 3H plastic kit, including all 4* major variants, plus all the small variables. It's a nice moulding, but is long OOP** and can be a pig to build (especially the chassis) and it's rather fragile for exhibition layout use...

* raved sides and ends, raved sides and solid ends, raved sides and solid ends and vacuum-piped, solid sides and solid ends. There were also the Pensnett conversions (deeper hopper chutes, from memory) and the cut-down sand hoppers (with fixed tarpaulin rail) and the original LMS/PO builds had a strengthening plate/strap across each side. And, of course, the one-off vacuum-braked example.

**oddly enough, the s/h price of these has come down since the Hornby announcement

 

I was considering replacing the worse ones in my fleet with the upcoming Hornby RTR one, but this gives a viable alternative. I did also try the Steam and Things brass kit from Australia, but it's quite expensive when you factor shipping/customs in, plus I had a couple of issues with the design and build of the kit.

 

Are you doing just the 1/150s, or might 151s and 152s be in the offing at some point?? And what might be a likely price??

 

As for the hooks - nope, no idea either and I don't recall seeing mention of their use in the few published sources. I do know they didn't always mould fully on the 3H kit and them that did were easily broken.

 

Lots of 3H modified ones on the ever-useful em1970s site and prototype pics on Paul Bartlett's website. MRC Datafile on 20t Cokes was in the August 1983 issue of Model Railway Constructor

Alan,

The 152s appear to on the radar of Justin Newitt so....

Wagon nuts, hide your credit cards.

WIBBLING FURIOUSLY!

[Enterprisingwestern]

I reckon the Hornby version will be not far off 25 to 30 quid so therefore, no contest.

This will now definitely mean Ian has his own roundtuit box in my workshop, a big one at that.

 

Mike.

[macgeordie]

I reckon the Hornby version will be not far off 25 to 30 quid so therefore, no contest.

This will now definitely mean Ian has his own roundtuit box in my workshop, a big one at that.

 

Mike.

Hi Mike

 

Not heard from you for a while, do you still want your transformer wagon kit?

 

Ian

[Porcy Mane]

Folks must be impressed with this Ian. I've just had a phone call giving me the heads up. It looks lovely.

 

Funnily enough a few of us up here in the NE know the draughtsman that adapted the LMS drawings during BR days. He re-drew the gussets with the vacuum pipe holes but this caused a bit of confusion on the shop floor (there was h*ll on) with holed/non holed  gussets being fitted randomly to both sides. To simplify things "management" took the decision to fit holed gussets to both sides.

 

"The Hooks". Used to shove your shunting pole through (or any other long implement) to lever the doors closed. Note how they line up with each set of doors.  Ta da!

 

And from another phone call just taken, the doors were planked wood. Don't know how many planks though. There is an outside chance I could be in the archive at York next week. If they have a drawing that gives the number of planks I'll give you a shout.

 

P

[Porcy Mane]

Not heard from you for a while, do you still want your transformer wagon kit?

 

If Mike doesn't want it, I know of a lurker on here that might be interested.

 

P

[macgeordie]

 

 

"The Hooks". Used to shove your shunting pole through (or any other long implement) to lever the doors closed. Note how they line up with each set of doors.  Ta da!

 

P

Thanks for the info Paul, that is really useful to know, I just could not think what they were for. It does beg another question though, the GA drawing shows the doors are hinged from the centre and hang down in the middle of the wagon when open, so getting a shunters pole to close it couldn't be easy.

Is the GA drawing wrong? not an uncommon thing, annoying if it is as I have added an overlay to the etch for the door hinges showing them hinged from the centre of the wagon. The Dorset models kit (no longer available) has white metal doors and has the hinges arranged on the outside of the wagon. 

If you do find out about the doors being planked, let me know and I will try to add the detail to the diagram 151 and 152 versions. Unless there is a problem with the (hopefully final) test etch for the 150 it isn't practical from a cost point of view to add the detail to this wagon.

 

pm me regarding the transformer wagon kit.

 

Ian

[Porcy Mane]

I'll see what I can do. I'll be in touch.

 

P

[Enterprisingwestern]

Hi Mike

 

Not heard from you for a while, do you still want your transformer wagon kit?

 

Ian

Most definitely Ian.

Struggling with crappy phone only Internet currently.

I'll attempt a pm, although that's hard work on the phone.

 

Mike.

[Enterprisingwestern]

If Mike doesn't want it, I know of a lurker on here that might be interested.

 

P

Oi, gerroffmekit.

 

Mike.

[hmrspaul]

Thanks for the info Paul, that is really useful to know, I just could not think what they were for. It does beg another question though, the GA drawing shows the doors are hinged from the centre and hang down in the middle of the wagon when open, so getting a shunters pole to close it couldn't be easy.

Is the GA drawing wrong? not an uncommon thing, annoying if it is as I have added an overlay to the etch for the door hinges showing them hinged from the centre of the wagon. The Dorset models kit (no longer available) has white metal doors and has the hinges arranged on the outside of the wagon. 

If you do find out about the doors being planked, let me know and I will try to add the detail to the diagram 151 and 152 versions. Unless there is a problem with the (hopefully final) test etch for the 150 it isn't practical from a cost point of view to add the detail to this wagon.

 

 

 

Ian

I think this photo, as used by Hornby, show the doors are clearly centrally hinged, http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brcoke/e206e3e17

 

When Trev Mann and me measured the wagons for the drawings* he did for the DAtafile article I cannot remember anything about the doors being wooden! He doesn't show that on his drawings. We avoided GAs as much as we possibly could unless we were content they were reasonably correct according to photographic records.

 

Thanks for the information about the hooks, having any assistance at all to close bottom doors was unusual - always struck me as a difficult and unpleasant job.

 

Paul

 

* measured on a wet day in Barry - we didn't often get rained off in South Wales - the cokes were the last and rotten with coal acid damage (which is why we believe the PO and LMS built ones had short lives) They were replaced in South Wales by HUOs. I did the field drawing so sheltered in the massive cab of a GWR 2-8-0 or 2-8-2 tank! They were truly huge and must have been great to work in, except on a hot summers day.

Edited February 24, 2016 by hmrspaul

[Pete Harvey]

To be quite honest Ian you model looks far better than anything that toy company could produce.

 

Well done sir.

[macgeordie]

I think this photo, as used by Hornby, show the doors are clearly centrally hinged, http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brcoke/e206e3e17

 

 

Hi Paul

I have a copy of that photo, I bought it off your website last year with a load of others when I was starting out on the drawings. It was that photo which made me decide they must be hinged in the centre as it tied in with the GA and I couldn't think of any other reason for having the cover plates running down the centre of the wagon. It was very useful to get the information from Porcy Main about closing the doors, I would never have thought of that one.

 

Ian

[Porcy Mane]

Pauls photo certainly proves the doors were not planked. Regarding the closing of doors, for years I watched guys opening and closing doors on hoppers but as it was an everyday occurrence I never asked about the finer points.

Occasionally I used to give the guy that was responsible for filling and emptying this wagon and all of its brethren a lift to work.

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/hawthornwagons/h3e52a60a#h3e52a60a

East Hetton Number 10 had centrally hinged doors and they were closed with a pinch bar similar to the example seen in this photo:

© National Railway Museum and SSPL  http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Liverpool%20Street&objid=1995-7233_LIVST_DF_201A

 

The guys responsible for loading and unloading also used a similar but more substantial pinch bar that had a larger square end. Both types of bar were "multi purpose" in that they were used to shunt the wagon when used as  a second class lever,  open /close the doors and loosen a stubborn load by clashing on the batter plates.

 

Incidentally East Hetton Number 10 as seen in Pauls photo was delivered new/refurbished to that colliery by rail from Seaham Wagon works on the 29th Sept. 1976.

 

P

Edited February 24, 2016 by Porcy Mane