br2975 Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 About an hour ago, whilst walking the dog alongside the South Wales main line - 66204 started a chain of thought. As it passed me I started thinking "There goes a loco built in Canada (London, Ont.), by an American company (GM / EMD) and operated by a German concern (DBS). It's pulling French wagons to an Indian owned steelworks (Tata) previously owned by a Dutch company (Corus nee Hoogovens)"....................................... it was followed by an Arriva Trains Wales Cl.175 unit, admiitedly built in Birmingham, by Alstom (French). ................................ I waited in vain for a Freightliner aggregate train from Briton Ferry, you know Freightliner (owned by Genessee & Wyoming, an American company) which would be hauled by a green engine built in Canada by an American firm that has since relocated to Mexico. The aggregates would have been carried in HIA hoppers, built in Swidnica (Poland) by Greenbriar (American)............................. My favourite would be a train of logs hauled by a Colas (French owned) loco built by General Electric (In Erie, Pennsylvania USA) hauling wagons converted from German built Cargowaggons to make chipboard for Kronospan (head office in Lucerne,Switzerland).............................. . No political point was intended in this post, but.... . Brian R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Still you'll be getting part Italian owned Aston Martins built down there to run on French or German electricity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 ... And then one of Britains finest 142s trundled through... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 I don't think it is a political point- it is an economic and common sense point. In the modern day there is going to be a large degree of multi-national companies. Indeed look at the early London underground lines- American companies, car companies such as Vauxhall have been American owned for decades and Ford- it's been here so long it is (was) almost an honourary British company. International co-operation and investment is a damned good thing. Those examples used British staff, British steels and other raw materials etc and used to spend enough here to really be an asset.Now things have changed. Foreign companies are taking over businesses here and purchasing everything they can from their home Countries. Spain, Germany, America, Canada, France, Poland, Japan, Italy- all have built or are building- stock for Britain's railways. None of it using British materials and only final assembly is being done with British workers. That is not sustainable from an economic viewpoint. But the real crime? Let us say we wanted to start building trains- all the skills are lost and the production equipment gone. If we wanted to start again it would take a generation. For railways also read nuclear power, ship building, aircraft engineering and so on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 ... And then one of Britains finest 142s trundled through... Which will be very busy later on this evening helping to move large numbers of rugby supporters from Wales, France and elsewhere cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted February 26, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 26, 2016 Is trundle the correct motivational verb for one of these abominations? Seems to imply at least a modicum of positive movement....Could I suggest Carrott's moniker for the Reliant Robin... Lurch! Hey, perhaps we could send the French supporters home in them through the Chunnel - that sight should be more than sufficient to discourage the hoards of waiting migrants... Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted February 26, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 26, 2016 About an hour ago, whilst walking the dog alongside the South Wales main line - 66204 started a chain of thought. As it passed me I started thinking "There goes a loco built in Canada (London, Ont.), by an American company (GM / EMD) and operated by a German concern (DBS). It's pulling French wagons to an Indian owned steelworks (Tata) previously owned by a Dutch company (Corus nee Hoogovens)"....................................... it was followed by an Arriva Trains Wales Cl.175 unit, admiitedly built in Birmingham, by Alstom (French). ................................ I waited in vain for a Freightliner aggregate train from Briton Ferry, you know Freightliner (owned by Genessee & Wyoming, an American company) which would be hauled by a green engine built in Canada by an American firm that has since relocated to Mexico. The aggregates would have been carried in HIA hoppers, built in Swidnica (Poland) by Greenbriar (American)............................. My favourite would be a train of logs hauled by a Colas (French owned) loco built by General Electric (In Erie, Pennsylvania USA) hauling wagons converted from German built Cargowaggons to make chipboard for Kronospan (head office in Lucerne,Switzerland).............................. . No political point was intended in this post, but.... . Brian R Pity you didn't see a DRS class 47 loco. British loco operated by the UK government! Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 bRIT15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Godwin's law, as we all know, predicts that all discussions will eventually involve talk about hitler, nazis, eu or merkel. I think we should have zomboid's law that predicts all discussions will eventually involve criticism of Pacer rail cars. Never mind that these railcars have fulfilled the duties that they were designed for with some great success- namely keeping open money pit branch lines. Never mind that despite never being designed for it they have managed Trans-Pennine journeys at speed and even are known to rattle up and down the ECML between York and Newcastle, often attached to a Sprinter doing 20MPH more than the Pacer was ever supposed to do. Poor old Pacers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 I think we should have zomboid's law that predicts all discussions will eventually involve criticism of Pacer rail cars. Does that mean this particular train of thought has already been derailed!?! I do concour with many of your points about the Pacers but I cannot feel the same way about them. It's not their fault, they have been (mis)treated by manangements various who seem to have imagined that they are actually real trains rather than branch line savers. Back to the OP, at least the contents of your trains would be largely 'British'! Cheers, John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 I don't really have a view on pacers, I can only think of 3 times I've ridden one and they were fine... Though admittedly I did go for the easy target. Wouldn't have been in any way amusing if I'd gone for a HST or 158. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted February 26, 2016 Author Share Posted February 26, 2016 Still you'll be getting part Italian owned Aston Martins built down there to run on French or German electricity. Correction Andy - we'll be building them here, but no one in Wales can afford to look at one, let alone buy one. . Brian R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 No- if you had mentioned a HST then that would really have been fighting talk. Of course no offence was intended to you with my reply. But now that you mention HST's.... in the spirit of the OP HST's - BR's finest hour, no doubt. Powered by the famous Paxman Valenta. Now powered primarily by MTU. We cannot even build our own diesel engines anymore, let alone build locomotives to put them in. This thread is quite interesting- a year or so ago this type of discussion would have had us all labelled as xenophobic racists, which is of course nonsense. We can always build factories if we really need to. But to re-build the dispersed skilled work force is just not going to happen and from a solely economic viewpoint how long can we keep buying trains, diesel units, whatever, without selling things in return? Answer is "not very long now." I don't really have a view on pacers, I can only think of 3 times I've ridden one and they were fine... Though admittedly I did go for the easy target.Wouldn't have been in any way amusing if I'd gone for a HST or 158. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 And the HSTs were re engines by Brush in Loughborough... Cummins make lots of diesel engines for rail use, and I believe they're built in the UK. Admittedly it's an American company, but we have lots of expertise in the UK when it comes to engines anyhow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 Brush fitted them, yes. Brush is now part of WABTEC of America. Cummins do build some engines here, yes, but not many. However they do have several re-engineering plants- the Darlington one is built, I believe, on part of Faiverdale works. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 About an hour ago, whilst walking the dog alongside the South Wales main line - 66204 started a chain of thought. As it passed me I started thinking "There goes a loco built in Canada (London, Ont.), by an American company (GM / EMD) and operated by a German concern (DBS). It's pulling French wagons to an Indian owned steelworks (Tata) previously owned by a Dutch company (Corus nee Hoogovens)"....................................... it was followed by an Arriva Trains Wales Cl.175 unit, admiitedly built in Birmingham, by Alstom (French). ................................ I waited in vain for a Freightliner aggregate train from Briton Ferry, you know Freightliner (owned by Genessee & Wyoming, an American company) which would be hauled by a green engine built in Canada by an American firm that has since relocated to Mexico. The aggregates would have been carried in HIA hoppers, built in Swidnica (Poland) by Greenbriar (American)............................. My favourite would be a train of logs hauled by a Colas (French owned) loco built by General Electric (In Erie, Pennsylvania USA) hauling wagons converted from German built Cargowaggons to make chipboard for Kronospan (head office in Lucerne,Switzerland)...............................No political point was intended in this post, but.....Brian R ....and to think that most British enthusiasts and modellers don't take any interest in "Foreign" trains... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 I must not get political - BUT, just think of all those profits going abroad, foreign owned companies ( or parent company) pay tax in their 'parent office' country. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
don Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 Twas said on a Radio 4 disscusion programme about Europe the other day that the UK has the largest percentage of "service industry " jobs in the EU compared to manufacturing? So we cant build it but we can keep em going! Don. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 Don, "service industry" relates not to blokes with spanners and oil cans giving trains their routine checks. It relates to insurance and banking. I know it is fashionable to knock both of those industries, but we are one of the world's largest for insurance- and THE largest in marine insurance by a staggering margin. Because of our physical location in respect of time zones and that we have the world's primary language, our banking sector makes an incredible amount of money for the Country (of course, you have to ignore what the tabloids are writing as they are just being 'fashionable'). We host so many organisations from international communications (such as inmersat) to the kidnap and ransom industry (insuring people against kidnap and funding their release) and anti piracy at sea, again including insurance. I know it is easy to judge Britain as finished, but we still punch well over our weight where it counts. Don't forget that we ran the planet for 250 years and are entitled to a few decades rest afterwards. It does really annoy me that in some areas (not this forum) people are saying that Britain is a busted, broken and failed Country and that we couldn't run a bath let alone our own Parliament. It has been said so many times that people are starting to believe it. We are still the fifth largest economy, we are the 2nd largest in the eu, we are one of only 2 nuclear armed Countries in Europe. We are one of the founders of both NATO and the UN, with permanent seats on both (together with full veto's). We still have a great future ahead of us.Some people might interpret the above as a political comment prior to the referendum 23rd June. Of course it isn't and I wouldn't break the no politics rule of this forum, so I refer only to economics and whether we return to being a full Sovereign Nation or remain ******************************************************************* meekly doing as we are told is a matter of absolute indifference to me and I would not indicate any preference for either side on a forum dedicated to model railways. EDIT: To remove a reference that some people might struggle to understand was tongue in cheek. EDIT2: Of course, sorry. In fairness irony is something that is not universally understood or appreciated; making a statement that you immediately contradict resulting in an ironic action or statement does go over the head of some. As someone speaking 3 languages and learning a fourth, with a comprehensive understanding of the history of Europe and Britain 1780 to present and as someone who employs marginally more Europeans than British I resent the accusation of xenophobic racism, though I can understand how some people might have misread and misinterpreted it. End of discussion from me, I shall let it go over my head. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted February 27, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 27, 2016 For railways also read nuclear power, ship building, aircraft engineering and so on. So the fact that Rolls Royce build Nuclear units (PWR2s and 3) for our Nuclear Submarines designed in the UK, we still build ships - or are the two Aircraft Carriers uin Build don't exist, we build Boats - Astute Class, and BAe do a lot of work on aircraft engineering in the UK as does Rolls Royce and Marshalls. seem to have passed you by. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted February 27, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 27, 2016 When talking about foreign ownership that is a two way thing. Rolls Royce own MTU and what was once Bergen diesel and there are plenty of examples of UK interests owning foreign names. On manufacturing and foreign ownership it is also not a particularly UK issue. If we continue to look at diesel engines, WinGD who are the current iteration of what was once the diesel engine division of Sulzer is Chinese owned and with no production in Switzerland, what was B&W is now part of MAN and there has been no production of their bigger engines in Denmark for a long time. Wartsila has been progressively moving production to Asia for a long time. On the other hand Ricardo (a British company many have never heard of) continue to provide design services for engine builders globally and despite a lot of stories to the effect that we don't make anything in the UK anymore there is actually quite a bit of high end, high value manufacturing if you look around. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 Let us say we wanted to start building trains Britain does build trains. Admittedly it's Canadian and Japanese companies who own the factories, but nevertheless... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 Parry people movers are British as far as I know w h Davis are British I think JCB are British Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 Derek Stuart For a man avowedly being apolitical, and sticking purely to economics, you are doing a pretty fair job of politics, and offensive-national-stereotyping-by-suggestion, with your line: "......... remain under merkel's jackboot as a mere satellite of Brussels ........". Personally, I don't really enjoy being served re-heated Kippers, thinly disguised as The Roast Beef of Olde England at this time of the evening - it leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted February 27, 2016 Author Share Posted February 27, 2016 Well that certainly lit the blue touch paper ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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