Mysterious New Hornby Flying Scotsman A1 or A3?

[robmcg]

While Hornby have produced may versions of the Flying Scotsman, I am struggling to find the model illustrated on their current homepage.

 

 

Any clues?

 

I have taken the liberty of reproducing it a little sharper... and what a stunner it would be, if only it were available.

 

Right-hand drive, catarzzi truck, detailed body and lining, disc-wheel super detail tender...  is it a teaser or is it a hybrid of other existing models?

 

 

All answers welcome.

 

 

 

 

 

[Hilux5972]

Personally I think it is a CG hybrid. The front bogie and valve gear are very clearly from the updated railroad chassis, but the boiler does look like it could be the newer A1/A3 model. However the tender looks like an older tooling to me.

[robmcg]

So a RR chassis and a super-detail body with right hand drive?

 

The tender looks to me possibly like the latest RR version too, or the tender from Book Law.

 

As Ozexpatriot mentioned in the Hornby profit warning thread the nearest yet is the planned 2554 Woolwinder from the upcoming Nigel Gesley pack, but it would be nice to cobble something like the picture above from current models...

 

Of course I could cobble one together with photo editing, but surely Hornby would never do that....?  

 

cheers 

[Bon Accord]

There was something like this on the Locomotion stand yesterday, I didn't scrutinise it that much as at first glance it looked like a Railroad model albeit with a glazed cab - but not the super detail style glazing, that of the immediate predecessor (circa 1999).

[robmcg]

There was something like this on the Locomotion stand yesterday, I didn't scrutinise it that much as at first glance it looked like a Railroad model albeit with a glazed cab - but not the super detail style glazing, that of the immediate predecessor (circa 1999).

 

Can you please give a code number for the older glazed lined RR version?  The engine body in the Hornby photo has good lining, picked-out lubricator wheels, front lamp brackets and so on, but all the photos I have of RR bodies are single white boiler lining, unpainted detailing, no lamp brackets and little or no cab-side lining.

 

R2974M for older versions  R3086 for newer?

 

I'm probably being silly.  I blame the stress of bending Book Law back into shape.  

 

edit; my current best attempt to emulate the Hornby model in the picture would be R2974 tender drive RR scotsman body and R3086 newer version engine-driven chassis and tender, with added lamp brackets and better paint detailing    thank you toboldlygo for suggesting something like this in the profit warning thread.

 

But it still looks like a super detail body to me with lining on running plate and around the front buffer beam, picked-out brass, and those taller front lamp brackets.     Which come with R2549 4475 'Flying Fox....  but that has a builder's plate on the smokebox   ah well,   I should sign off as

 

'Yours,   Confused'

[micklner]

CGI image 

 

Loco

Railroad Chassis, valve gear and moulded motion bracket and unlined wheels. But then it has lined out Cylinder and Cartazzi truck aka super detail version.

Body doesnt exist as far as I know. Cab has low cut outs aka Book Law , missing lining to Cab sides but washout plugs and cab spectacles lined out , super detail oil lube pots and drain cocks.

 

Tender 

Hard to tell what it is , looks like Railroad version with reduced Coal pile and not painted Black on top area

[Bon Accord]

Can you please give a code number for the older glazed lined RR version?  The engine body in the Hornby photo has good lining, picked-out lubricator wheels, front lamp brackets and so on, but all the photos I have of RR bodies are single white boiler lining, unpainted detailing, no lamp brackets and little or no cab-side lining.

 

I'm probably being silly.  I blame the stress of bending Book Law back into shape.  

 

Rob,

Having had a look around online, my thoughts are it may be a photoshopped R3284TTS model; the body etc fits (complete with partially glazed cab), but with some altered lining/lettering.

[robmcg]

Rob,

Having had a look around online, my thoughts are it may be a photoshopped R3284TTS model; the body etc fits (complete with partially glazed cab), but with some altered lining/lettering.

 

Thanks,  also to Micklner ,    I suppose it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Hornby have put something together from bits and pieces or even photo-edited something...  horrors!

[Legend]

Personally I think it is a CG hybrid. The front bogie and valve gear are very clearly from the updated railroad chassis, but the boiler does look like it could be the newer A1/A3 model. However the tender looks like an older tooling to me.

Why not go the whole hog and paint it the correct colour

[toboldlygo]

As long as it's not the Flying Scotsman as seen near Bradford..

 

 

:D

[robmcg]

Ah, I knew I had a detail or two wrong....

[Hroth]

As long as it's not the Flying Scotsman as seen near Bradford..

 

FB_IMG_1456605083967.jpg

 

:D

Naughty!

 

But isn't that 20mm gauge track?

 

Struggling to avoid contemplating purchasing the "Giant Flying Scotsman" poster offered in todays Daily Wail.  Not that I'd give 'em 2 quid towards the postage, buts its the "passing an accident" rubbernecking appeal that so fascinates me!

[robmcg]

Why not go the whole hog and paint it the correct colour

 

Like this?

 

 

 

[robmcg]

In an attempt to untangle the mystery surround the recent Hornby.com header photo of 4472 I have foolishly attempted to untangle the history of various models of 4472 produced by that august company.

 

As noted by micklner and others there is a mix of quality painting and a Railroad chassis, some lining, of sorts visible on cabside, unknown tender.

 

Here are recent versions of R3086 the RR chassis probably used in Hornby's photo.  One has cab glazing the other doesn't. Below that is R3284TTS the current sound version, with glazing.  None of these have double boiler lining, but the earlier iterations of tender drive Scotsman engines did, together with lined cylinders, cab lining...  yet to find a good photo of these versions. Except the last below..

Basic R3086

 

Better R3086

 

TTS versionR3284TTS

 

Tender drive 'Pegler' version left-hand drive.

 

Hornby tender drive R2261

 

I suspect Hornby made a montage of parts and/or photo editing.  My own effort in this regard using Book Law with a mirrored boiler and some parts painted on, is thus.. (although I could have used Flying Fox)

 

But I have bought an NRM Flying Scotsman just to drive me totally insane (all poorer too!)  

 

Here just to compare again, the Hornby.com website header photo.

 

 

Conclusion.  toboldlygo was right all along...  possibly  

 

edited to remove superheater cover from smokebox in my own poor effort... 

[JSpencer]

The previous tender drive A3 was sacrificed to make the live steam version (although the A1 remained until the tooling was recently replaced). I suspect the current railroad version shares parts with the main version in the same way that their A4 does.

 

Likewise the tender of the long lived original 80s tool, was probably replaced using parts of the Tornado/P2 tools (and again I think the A4 followed this).

 

I consider this a perfectly normal and logical evolution.

 

Thanks to Simon says, we also now know that the crosti 9F shares parts with the normal 9F whereas there was lots of debate saying it was an entirely different set of tools. Entirely reasonable and expected and explains why the pony truck is no different compared to my aging 1990s tender drive one (different wheels though).

[robmcg]

After all this, I am still in the dark as to the existence or otherwise of a Hornby version of the Flying Scotsman in A1 form in LNER colours, with right-hand drive.

 

With proper boiler lining, running plate red lining, cylinder lining if applicable, cab glazing and some lining, and proper 4472 lettering.... some tender drive versions have all these qualities but are A3 left-hand-drive.   Equally the Australian tour R2687 version is beautiful but is a single-chimney LNER A3 with left-hand drive.  Did 4472 run in 1947-8 in this condition?

 

I rather like the idea of picking up a well-painted factory body from a tender drive non-runner and putting the engine body on a current version R3086 chassis with tender all very cheaply...

[Guest spet0114]

Hmmm... A1 model of 4472 with corridor tender, five lamp irons, reduced cab/boiler fittings, larger cab cut-outs and shorter drain-cock pipes all place the loco around 1928 - i.e. around the time of the inaugural non-stop run.  The presence of the later type of buffer-beam steps however, places it a little later - but not before ~ 1930 when the cab cut-outs were modified and the lamp irons reduced in number to four.   The absence of the brass beading on the splashers is, from memory, anachronistic as I believe it carried the extra beading from the time of the 1924 exhibition until at least 1935/6 and possibly after.

 

So, in short a bit of a hodge-podge.  If I had to make a guess, I'd say that Hornby were planning to commemorate the non-stop run with a superdetailed model of the loco in 1928 condition and this was an early prototype with a few innacuracies (this is Hornby after all).

 

Cheers
Adrian

[robmcg]

Hmmm... A1 model of 4472 with corridor tender, five lamp irons, reduced cab/boiler fittings, larger cab cut-outs and shorter drain-cock pipes all place the loco around 1928 - i.e. around the time of the inaugural non-stop run.  The presence of the later type of buffer-beam steps however, places it a little later - but not before ~ 1930 when the cab cut-outs were modified and the lamp irons reduced in number to four.   The absence of the brass beading on the splashers is, from memory, anachronistic as I believe it carried the extra beading from the time of the 1924 exhibition until at least 1935/6 and possibly after.

 

So, in short a bit of a hodge-podge.  If I had to make a guess, I'd say that Hornby were planning to commemorate the non-stop run with a superdetailed model of the loco in 1928 condition and this was an early prototype with a few innacuracies (this is Hornby after all).

 

Cheers

Adrian

 

A very good summation and I do hope Hornby produce such a model, thank you.

[robmcg]

In looking at planned Hornby A1 A3 A4 ad P2 engies in the July 2016 Sir Nigel Gresley pack I notice the pictures of the A1 and A3 have the same running plate upwards bent as the forlorn 'Book Law'

 

I hope they don't reach production quite like this.  Hornby's photos unaltered but for vignette. A4 4494 'Osprey' added for interest, as well as the corridor tender which perhaps could be used on a 1930-ish A1/3   probably not quite the same?.

 

 

Here's hoping the gloss finish will be as good.

 

Cheers,

 

typo edit

[Hilux5972]

Looks to me like the boiler isn't properly attached to the chassis in those pics. Hope they do sort it before production. I don't want Airplane A3's lol

[rockershovel]

As long as it's not the Flying Scotsman as seen near Bradford..

FB_IMG_1456605083967.jpg

:D

Are they intending to prosecute the trespasser on tne track?

[micklner]

Tender on the A4 would have to have the Streamlined Top Fairing removed. It should have Black wheels for both uses.

 

The photos look like they are using a Book Law model with a Banjo Dome added to Firdaussi version but the wrong Cab sides for that version. However the Woolwinder model has the later cab sides !!

[robmcg]

Tender on the A4 would have to have the Streamlined Top Fairing removed. It should have Black wheels for both uses.

 

The photos look like they are using a Book Law model with a Banjo Dome added to Firdaussi version but the wrong Cab sides for that version. However the Woolwinder model has the later cab sides !!

 

One presumes that the early publicity pics are only a guide,and things will be fixed for production,  one assumes that if the release date is July then the production is well in hand ... certainly the right moulds and toos will have been chosen, cab cut-outs.

 

Although I am no expert on A3 variants it seemed that Hornby generally got things right for their BR versions in the pre-2012 Sanda Kan era. I think REF Refined Industries?  have all the relevant tools, and I hope whoever from Hornby manages the specifications is on top of the situation. That said, the wavy running plates and assembly issues are a worry. 

[Bon Accord]

One presumes that the early publicity picsare only a guide,and things will be fixed for production,  one assumes that if the release date is July then the production is well in hand ... certainly the right moulds and loots will have been chosen, cab cut-outs.

 

Although I am no expert on A3 variants it seemed that Hornby generally got things right for their BR versions in the pre-2012 Sanda Kan era. I think REF Refined Industries?  have all the relevant tools, and I hope whoever from Hornby manages the specifications is on top of the situation. That said, the wavy running plates and assembly issues are a worry. 

 

Rob,

In the case of BOOK LAW, the early publicity images highlighted some issues which then realised themselves in the production models. Unfortunately I can't help but be suspicious of anything Gresley pacific related from Hornby these days. I do quantify that by saying I did purchase 3 out of the 4 Silver Jubilee locos (I already had 2509), but only after seeing photos of the models themselves. I'm afraid memories of the Great Gathering/Goodbye/GREAT SNIPE debacle lingers on.

Oddly, the issues experienced by the A3/A4 models don't seem to affect their other products in the same way, K1 excepted perhaps. However recent purchases by me of their Black Motor, D16, J15 and indeed K1 have produced superb models.

[robmcg]

Tender on the A4 would have to have the Streamlined Top Fairing removed. It should have Black wheels for both uses.

 

 

Is this tender from the Royal Mail GN-style A1 4476 accurate for a 1928-35 era 'non-stop' A1 or A3? Hornby must have truly vast array of tooling and engine specification choices.

 

 

I notice that 2554 Woolwinder does have what looks to me like the taller cab ventilators of ex-GN loading-gauge A1s.... ?

 

 

edit;  once again I must settle down and have a thorough read of the RCTS Green Book on LNER Pacifics... !